SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Elless.....I'm afraid I agree with Smiles assessment. I know I might sound very cynical but I think it's better not to build up your hopes until you have a clear sign that you son does wish to re-engage.

Op you get your op soon.

Oh dear whiff.....I do feel for you. You have been treated shamefully. It's just so cruel and so unfair to you. As if losing your husband wasn't enough, but your son has really twisted the knife and then rubbed salt into the wound. And yes you are right, it's the poor innocent grandchildren who will ultimately pay the price.

It's beyond wickedness that any parent could treat their children as pawns in their sick games. . Whatever our errant offspring feel or think about us, their parents, there can be no justification for the cruelty of using their own children as weapons. All I can say is that one day they will reap what they have sown but at what a price. How they will damage and scar these poor innocent little mites.

Can they really be so obtuse. They feel they are so hard done by, so entitled to their "rights" that as soon as they hit a bump in the road they become blinded by their righteous indignation. It robs them of their ability to think straight.

What I struggle with is that my son and DIL are smart people.....they have PHDs in STEM subjects for gods sake. So why are they so blind as to what they do. Have they have no self awareness left, or have they been brainwashed and so indoctrinated by the education system that they are incapable of independent thought or any form of critical analysis.

I cannot help but think they have they been over educated to the point of losing what bit of common sense they were born with and what it actually means to be human. They seem to have lost the ability to understand what is real and what is truly important, their humanity and any sense of common decency.

I have been astonished and dismayed to see what I can only describe as a mean and viscous streak of ruthlessness in both my son and DIL Their arrogance, their grandiosity, their lack of humility and their sense of entitlement is beyond my comprehension. My son was not brought up to believe he was Gods gift to humanity but that is now the way he behaves at times. It's all learned behaviour, mainly from his poisonous wife.

Sometimes I look at my grandchildren, so innocent, so loving and sweet and I shudder to think how they are going to suffer at the hands of such a vile narcissistic mother. I look at my son, cowed and defeated and not yet even 40, rapidly turning into a carbon copy of his wife and fear for him.

I feel both angry and helpless. I want to shake my son until his teeth rattle and he finally wakes up. However, until the scales fall from his eyes and he sees just what he has married, neither his brother or myself can do anything but watch as his life implodes.

Why are our sons so blind......

Thanks for the tip Elless. Maybe it was better that you weren't quick enough to open the door. What if you had been and he just kept on walking, that would have broken your heart again.

Our ES would walk past our house with the children but there was never any intention to engage with us. It's so hard to not look for a positive I know, but be careful about 'seeing' something that may not be there.

I'm so sorry about your op and keeping everything crossed that the new date.

Smiles when the Yak's get smaller put them in the microwave and they puff up and the dogs think they've got a new one [grin}. Was supposed to in for my op on Wednesday 13th but they cancelled again, I took a tip from one of the posts on Gransnet and contacted the hospital to ask if there are any available empty orthopaedic slots anywhere else and they phoned me that afternoon and offered me another op date in two weeks so fingers crossed for third time lucky.
I am feeling a bit hopeful on the ES front - it was my youngest son's birthday this week and as he still lives with us I heard a card being posted through the door and looked out to see my ES with my GC walking away, I wish I had been a bit quicker to the door and opened it - surely if he didn't want to speak he would have rushed away and not brought my GC?

Cruel and heartless DerbyshireLass. It's not as if either of us have more than a handful of memories of spending any time with him and none of the few we have are untarnished.

Being bloody minded, I refused to be put off holding and playing with him and just let her get on with it.

You're right, you do have to laugh. They're so transparent aren't they.

Sorry you're feeling unwell but very impressed with how industrious you've been lately.

Better not tell Mr. S. you're off to see the new Bond film. I'm not ready to go the pictures yet and as much as I like Daniel Craig have never been a Bond fan. TBH I'm not fan of the cinema at all really. I get fidgety.

So that's 2 things to look forward too, even though one of them involves your d.i.l. I think I'd be hard pressed not be grinning like a Cheshire cat at the wonderful show she'll be putting on to impress her aunt.

Oh dear, Smiles that is awful, Poor Mr S to be made to feel so uncomfortable like that. That's just so cruel. I would like to say "unbelievable" but I don't believe in the word unbelievable.

I have sadly learned that this no depths that some people won't stoop to, that they aren't even remotely concerned how much they hurt people. Clearly they have no finer feelings or consideration for others and not the slightest vestige of a conscience. Sadly all too believable. They just don't care.

The funniest thing last night. I was sitting minding my own business just watching a film when I started receiving a barrage of texts from DIL asking my advice on a property matter. I wouldn't call myself an expert but after 30 years working in the property industry I acquired a bit of knowledge along the way. She wanted my thoughts and advice.......lol.

Amazing isn't it. Just a few weeks ago I was a worthless piece of trash, not worth the time of day. Now all of a sudden I'm the fount of all wisdom and flavour of the month. You have to laugh..,....

I'm not fooled. I'm not flattered either. A solicitor would have charged a fee for the knowledge I shared and the counsel I was able to provide. DIL was on to a good thing. Like most narcs she is a user.

Today I was supposed to visit a friend for lunch, unfortunately I had an encounter with some dodgy chicken last night and have had to cancel. So instead I have made myself useful.

I have blitzed my living room and revamped it. I've removed a bookcase, added a nice new pale wolf grey faux fur rug and a faux fur artic fox sofa throw, got rid of some plants that were a bit overgrown, removed some ornaments and cushions. The room looks bigger and brighter, not exactly minimalist but definitely more steam lined. It now has a nice Scandinavian feel with all the all pale furs. Also dug out some of my nice pottery. It looks fab, even if I do say so myself. Going to work my way through the house over the next couple of weeks, decluttering and deep cleaning.

I already have a car full for the charity shop. And there's plenty more where that came from......??. It's all part of the new reinvented, improved me.

It's true what they say when you clear out the clutter in your house, you also clear out the junk and clutter that's clogging up your brain. It's definitely working for me, I feel happier and more free than I have done in a long time.

You are right Smiles. Whilst I have no desire to spend time with my DIL, it's worth it if it means I get a relationship with my grandchildren, I'm not about to cut my nose off to spite my face.

I will attend the lunch and I will be gracious and charming.?

In the meantime my lovely younger son and his partner are taking me to see the new Bond film on Sunday. That will be much more fun. No having to bite my tongue, or be aware of undercurrents ulterior motives. Just a happy time relaxing and enjoying their company.

Whiff. What would your lovely H had made of it all?

I know it troubles Mr. S. when he thinks about what our GC have been told but I don't think about it. There's nothing I can do about it so for me, there's no point.

We were so thrilled when our first GC was born and still have the 'congratulations on becoming a GP' cards we received. I even have a card that she made with his little hand and foot prints, in which they thanked us for all we'd done!!!

I gave up my little gift shop that I loved to provide they child care they asked for, of course it never happened.

I don't think I could even look at him now either.

Smiles I am sorry you have been denied being grandparents. Not only have you missed out but your grandchildren. I know how much having my nan in my life meant to me and my husband. She got to spend years with our children. My granddad died when I was 9.

Grandchildren are used as pawns to punish us for whatever our children think we have done wrong. It would never occur to then that they are the problem not us .

Unfortunately we will never know what our grandchildren are told or not told about us. If my son doesn't tell my grandson's about me that's his choice. I will never forgive my son or daughter in law . But if he doesn't tell my grandson's about his dad then I don't think I could even look at him. Our children meant the world to my husband and he so wanted to be a grandad. But life has a way of kicking you in the teeth.

I know how lucky I am to have my daughter and her family. And cherish every minute with them.

But the one person I want and need I can't have. And that loss far out weights losing my son and grandson's. And always will.

In spite of their being an ulterior motive DerbyshireLass at least you've been invited. My initial reaction would I think have been the same as yours, but then like you, I'd be thinking about being able to see my GC.

They're so manipulative aren't they, strategically placing all their pieces on the game board so the outcome once the game is finished, is precisely what they want it to be.

I changed eldest GC's nappy once Whiff. We never saw him in the bath and felt her eyes boring into our backs when we were holding him or playing with him.

The very first time we saw him the day after he was born, you could have cut the atmosphere with a knife. I asked if I could hold him, ES said of course mum but it was clear from the outset that we weren't going to be wanted or welcomed by her.

Poor Mr. S. would feel so uncomfortable having any kind of physical contact that in the end he wouldn't hold him if she was there.

Our only experience of being GP's. Short lived, stressful and not all together pleasant and in all probability the only GP experience we'll ever have.

DerbyshireLass your post made me think of all the differences between what I did with my son, daughter in law and 2 grandson's I know and what I do with my daughter,son in law and 2 grandson's.

With my son and daughter in law I was never allowed to be alone with the boys. Never changed a nappy . At their house or mine.

But with my daughter's 2 . I have always changed nappies and given them their bottles. Looked after their eldest for hours either here or at theirs especially when my daughter was pregnant and had hospital appointments. Been looking after my youngest grandson for the last few months when they go to the swimming lesson. I go for lunch on Friday's and they bring me home after 5.

You know I never took any notice of the fact I wasn't left alone with my son's boys. I was just happy to be with them. Makes me wonder what they thought I would do to them.

Since being dismissed as a mother and grandmother made me think back on all the things I turned a blind eye to. But when you live far apart I was just happy to be with them. Then when I moved and saw them every week I was happy.

Deep down I knew something wasn't right but as we always let the children live their own lives and didn't interfer. And being on my own for so long not having my husband with me was and still is very hard. The years don't make the loss easier to bare you just cope better.

My daughter used to go mad about how often my son let me down or was late. But he never let me down for important things like taking me to hospital .

I didn't defend him just didn't say anything. My son in law told me when I had the email and my daughter had hers that he knew something wasn't right for years but didn't want to hurt me.

That's the big difference between both families. My son and daughter in law have gone out of their way to hurt me in the worst way possible. But my daughter and son in law said I will never lose them.

As much as I miss my son and grandson's . For my peace of mind having zero contact has helped me cope. I couldn't put up with the abuse and mind games some of you are having to put up with. I know my limits.

Having the extra health problems which I am coping well with because of the excellent health care here. If they can fix my heart I will have it done no matter what that involves. I intend to live as long as I can independently and hopefully keep my marbles. But if I can't I will go in a home if I lose my marbles. Or if it's just physical have help in my home. I do not want my daughter to look after me. I looked after my mom and only after she died realised what an awful toll it had taken on me. But I would do exactly the same thing. I couldn't put my mom in a home even when the violence started as it wasn't my mom but the dementia. My mom had died but her body lived..

It is all to easy for our adult children to throw us away like a piece of rubbish. We could have done that with my husband's parents but we didn't . Even after he died I still looked after his mom and I hated her. I don't let people down its not my way it's not the way I was brought up. My children where brought up the same. Unfortunately my son has decided to take the cruel and cowardly way out. With the email and letter. It's a sad fact he hadn't got the guts to say all the things he accuses me of to my face . Because he knows they are lies.

But it's his choice and his loss. Sadly my 3 grandson's are the real losers.

Hi everyone. Still reading along.

I think estrangement is the same as mourning someone who has died, we mourn for what was, for the change in our present circumstances, and for all the might have beens in the future. Especially the lost opportunity of getting to know our grandchildren.

Thankfully the waves of grief do get less intense and less frequent.

I have been invited to a celebratory lunch for my youngest grandsons 1st birthday. My DIL sent me a text invite. I suppose I ought to feel grateful but the wording of the text wasn't especially gracious or welcoming. For two pins I feel declining. Especially as my eldest son still hasn't been in contact with his brother. Said brother is putting a brave face on it but I can tell he's hurt. I too have heard nothing from my son in well over a week. Yes I know he's busy, but a quick 5 minute call to his mother wouldn't kill him would it.

However, there's no point getting upset. This is obviously how it's going to be, intermittent contact when the mood takes them. Well if that's how they want to play it then fair enough. I won't waste my life wishing and hoping for more. For the sake if the children, I shall make do with a sort of twilight world of semi estrangement,

I actually feel like telling them to just b###er off and get on with it, but that would scupper any chance of having a relationship with my grandchildren so for now I'll just play along.

I will be gracious and attend the lunch, knowing full well that the greater part of the reason DIL has condescended to allow me to be there is because she has an aunt visiting from overseas. And of course, she wants to look good in her aunts eyes. She has to keep up the facade. God forbid that her aunt should see the truth and report back to DILs behaviour to her parents.

I do feel sorry for my youngest son though, he has done nothing wrong and I know he's both baffled and hurt. But both he and I are resigned to it all now, and just quietly getting on with our own lives.

All the outside work is done now for the time being and the great declutter has begun.

They are like children Whiff. When Mr. S. holds our cockapoo in his arms, she lays back just like a baby. They're both cheese lovers which is a real boon when it comes to giving the tablets.

They're supposed to be meat flavoured and chewy but they'll never ingest them as they are, we have to disguise them in cheese. My cat likes cheese too; strange isn't it.

I love York, it's quite near to us and we've had a few long weekend breaks there. It's beautiful at Christmas. The narrow streets are always beautifully decorated and if you're lucky enough to be there when there's snow, it looks Dickensian.

It's good that those gaps between waves of negativity are widening Allsorts. It's fast approaching 9 years for us now and there are still times when I get that too, but very rarely now.

Whiff glad you’re feeling your usual self now. I too long for a holiday, just awaiting for a bit more normality..A lot of happiness can come from planning a break.
I too have always had a waist, but I’m afraid like the rest of me it’s expanded, quite a lot .,I was a 22”waist and 8 1/2/stone:when I married many years ago, vacant hardly believe it now but that’s a distant memory.
Feeling more positive now, every now and then negativity at being estranged almost overcomes me and it’s awful, but the gaps between get wider.

Allsorts I have always had a waist . What should have been boobs all ended up on my stomach,bum and hips. Always could get my bras from M&S but knickers and clothes where from Evans.

Back to my happy self. We had 2 men join our exercise class yesterday we did nothing but laugh. But Steph worked us for a hour. Must have put more effort into the exercises yesterday as feeling it today. But I love it. My husband would be flabbergasted me liking exercise.

Didn't need new distance glasses but need stronger readers thought I did. My eyes are healthy which is good.

Craft group today hopefully they have had the new doors on the library as there was no heating on because of the work last week .

Smiles dogs sound like children. All the things you need to do for them. I know my brother and sister in law brush their dogs teeth but she enjoys it as she knows she gets a treat afterwards. My grandson thinks its funny she likes cheese.

Market towns are lovely. I have promised myself a holiday in 3 years time when I get my state pension. I want to go too Ireland Cork or Galway for 4 days. Because I don't drive it will be a city break but hopefully either by bus or train I can go places. Ireland was our favourite place for holidays. Haven't had a holiday since 2005 that was only because I promised my husband I would go on holiday a year after he died. Went to York for 4 days. Did a lot if firsts in those 4 days. But enjoyed it.

Enjoy your day everyone.☺️

Oh Allsorts that did make me laugh "her figure was much better arranged than mine, I'm still looking for my waist". What's a waist?.

Had a lovely day going to a lovely market town which we only go to when we're here as since moving, it's a bit too far away.

Desperately trying to find things that our dogs can digest properly but are good for their teeth and gums. Our little poodle had his teeth cleaned last year but his canines aren't looking too good TBH.

So, we've bought a pack of toothbrushes and gel. We've tried to clean his teeth before but it wasn't very successful, and two Yaks Cheese chews, yes that's right, Yaks Cheese!! The chews cost £12.00 plus £15.00 for the brushes and gel. Maybe they saw us coming. Our cockapoo has been chomping down on her chew but the little man isn't interested.

Perfectly understandable Whiff. We have no idea how they are do we; not an easy situation to be in is it.

Yes Whiff, your son, he will always have a place in your heart even though he’s not in your life, it would send you in a spin thinking it might have been him. Hope you’re feeling loads better now. He estranged you, you didn’t estrange him. Bet you enjoy that chicken stew.
Reassuring Marilyn was a 14, her figure was much better arranged than mine, I’m still looking for my waist.
I have about a third of the photos I used to have up, those I get a warm glow looking at, not ones that make me think of what’s missing. I don’t like photos taken of me now, in my head I am still pretty and forty, it doesn’t look like me now or at least how I think I should look.

Yes that would give you a fright whiff that’s when you realise the missing one is always on your mind.

Hope you enjoy the rest of the day.

Just had a start. I was reading the local news and a man had got killed in a car crash in the area my son lives. Sounds awful but I was relieved to read he was in his 20's . He may not want his mom but I can't stop being his and he is and will always be my son even after I die.

Got a busy day ahead which is a good job as I woke up feeling sad this morning . Which is very unusual for me. Any way been busy already got a chicken stew on the go and washing on before 8 .

Got shopping ,eye test and exercise class this afternoon. Plus need to prep my craft stuff for tomorrow. Need to get on with some housework before I catch the bus.

Have a good day everyone ☺️☺️

I love my family, friends photos. Its my memories and they're all I've got of some very much loved happy times..
However I dont like dusting them so I'm thinking of getting them all onto a huge canvas or something. One day.

Marilyn Monroe was a size 14 Whiff, just one dress size smaller than you.

The only photo's I have out are one of DS, one of Mr. S. taken a couple of years ago when he was bowls singles champion and one of my gran.

Smiles I used to hate having my photo taken when I was 19+st. But my husband always liked photos of me with him and the family. It's only the last couple of years I don't mind having my pic taken . Because I look so different from the old me. Took some old photos of me to exercise class last week as they couldn't picture me big. I am no slim Jim but a size 16 was a 32 for decades.

I have always had family photos in frames and the only ones I put away where of my son and daughter in law it was to painful having their smiling faces about. But still have photos of my grandson's up as they are innocent in all this. Even though I know they won't look like that anymore. But having them about makes me happy. It's like having my favourite photo of my husband on the mantel piece.

We all have to do what makes us happy as I think to some people happiness is under rated. And yet it is in my eyes very important.

Hope you are doing all the things you wanted to do whilst away.

I've never got out of the phase of having my photo taken Whiff so there aren't many of me. How sweet, for him to agree because of who the photo was for.

I think the wee incident was a one off but I'm keeping an eye on him.

Smiles dogs are funny. I don't have any pets . But my brother and sister in law have a Jack Russell . When she sees me we have to make sure I greet her outside as everytime she gets so excited she has a wee. But I love the fact no matter how long it is between visits she remembers me. She will love her new home so many new things to explore.

My grandson is going through the phase of not liking his photo taken. But I said it was for Aggie so of course he smiled and let me take it. My sister in law sent me some pics of her so I had one printed and put it into a frame for him it was the first thing that went into his bedroom when they moved. Funny thing is he hasn't met her in person yet. But loves Aggie stories.

Have a wonderful holiday and hopefully no more wee incidents inside.

Oh he's very settled Ganniesunite having a cuddle with
Mr. S. as I type

Hope he settles down and enjoys his holiday... You and Mr S too of course