SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

oops made a mess of that so I'll try again.

For the latter, who had abusive parent(s) it must be totally bewildering why someone who has loving parents would choose to estrange them.

I'm sorry that you've experienced that kind of response Whiff, sorry but unfortunately not surprised.

In my experience that sort of thing tends to come from someone who has been fortunate enough to have never experienced estrangement, or someone whose estranged an abuser which of course is a completely different kettle of fish.

I wonder if it's the former if it's easier to believe that all EP's must be at fault, otherwise it could happen to them couldn't it. We never thought it would happen to us, none of us here did.

For the latter, having and abusive parent(s) it must be totally bewildering why someone who does, choose to estrange them. I can't understand a parent abusing their child but that doesn't mean I'm unable to accept that it happens.

We can't stop others judging us and TBH I feel sorry for those that do, I wouldn't want to be like that.

I know on one of the other estrangement threads someone suggested strongly I was at fault and must have done something to make my son not want anything to do with me. But I haven't. At least here no one is like that.

To be honest it really hurt me to think someone was judging me who didn't even know me. It's not just me my son has decided he doesn't want but all our side of the family. As I have said my daughter also had an email from him the day I did. She has washed her hands of him and her sister in law. My daughter and daughter in law never got on from the moment they met 17years ago. My son met his future wife when they where 17 both are now 34.

But I and those that know me and love me know I haven't done anything wrong. Until March last year my son came every week with his 2 eldest sons from when I moved here August 2019. Covid stopped his visits like it did for lots of families. When we could bubble I bubbled with my daughter and family.

My son's mother in law lives with them and has done for about I think it's 7 years now. She moved in with them when her marriage ended. I was told it was temporary.

One thing no one can say about me is that I am dependant on anyone for a roof over my head or food on my plate . If it comes to a point in future years I can't look after myself I will go into a home. I decided that after my husband died. As I never wanted to be a burden to either my children.

DerbyshireLass I'm glad. Laughing is good for us!

When you have tried everything to have a good relationship, it's time to move on. We can't change others, only ourselves and how we deal with it.

Violetsky.....you made me chuckle..."all I needed to do was give her a mouthful". Sometimes we are just too polite and too considerate for our good. Maybe we could save ourselves a lot of heartache if we did just "let them have it" rather than always trying to be conciliatory and reasonable.

As I said before my father was a narc but I learned how to manage him from quite an early age. As I grew older it was water off a ducks back. I only stayed in contact with him for my mother's sake and he knew it. He knew he had no power, that he could no longer manipulate me and that he couldn't hurt me so he simply stopped trying,

Somilarly, DIL is no problem to me at all on a personal level. I can walk away without a backward glance and feel nothing but pity for her, The only reason I have kept on trying was for my sons sake (and now my grandsons). However, as you can tell I am beginning to question the wisdom of keeping trying.

I am of the opinion that even if I get a reprieve (??) ) this time - how long would it actually last before there is another incident. Do I really want to be constantly riding an emotional rollercoaster just so I can remain on the edges of my grandchildren's lives, never really being allowed to build a close relationship with them, having to be content with just a few crumbs.

Not good for ones dignity and self respect is it. Constantly having to tiptoe round, tread on eggshells and curry favour with someone who feels nothing but contempt for me just so I can see my grandchildren for a few hours once a month or so.

It might do wonders for her ego but it wouldn't do much for my self respect. Maybe if I had had more pride and taken a stand earlier we might not have come to such a pretty pass but I didn't so I'll never know.

Smileless......yes I have seen people pass judgement on parents who are estranged from their adult children. A lot of the professional advice from counsellors also seems to hold similar viewpoints......the old "no smoke without fire" kind of thinking.

Which is why we all rack our brains, dredging up the memories trying to work out if we are somehow to blame. Was it something we did, or didn't do. We could drive ourselves crazy. But I DO know, deep in my soul, that I have done nothing to warrant the treatment that has been dished out to me.

Admittedly most of it has come from DIL, but even though I appreciate my sons predicament and that he is, in many ways, trapped between a rock and a hard place, I did at least expect fair play from him. Not sure I can say that he has treated me fairly,

All I know is he is not the man we brought him up to be, he has changed beyond recognition. In a way I am just glad his father isn't alive to see this day, because he would be heartbroken. Like your husband Smileless, my husband would have been devastated.

Yes in some ways 4 short weeks has felt like a lifetime, the range of emotions I have experienced has been truly astonishing. I am so changed. Physically it has knocked me for six, and it will take time to regain some of my old vim and vigour but mentally and emotionally I feel stronger than ever.

I have always been a bit of a physical weakling, subject to all sorts of minor stress induced ailments but I know that mentally and emotionally I have always been strong and resilient. Having a narc for a father certainly toughened me up.

I suppose I should thank him for my excellent training. ??.

I did the same thing, I have an email stream from where I explained why I was going no contact with my mother. It went on over a few years on and off. Her telling me that nothing I said had ever happened. Me gently explaining why her denials, lack of empathy and calling me a cruel horrible person for estranging was never going to encourage me back into a relationship. In the end after she tried to twist situations into her being the heroic good guy and me being just a cruel horrible person again I lost it and called her an "abusive, evil old woman". She replied "that's just the sort of response I'd expect from you". I laughed so hard at that having never said anything like it before in my life and finally found the strength to block all futlrther communication.

She has continued to stalk me and my children online with multiple fake accounts etc but we just block her, send the link around with a block alert and move on with our day.

All that time patiently trying to get her to understand and accept that she had hurt me and all I really needed to do was give her a mouthful and walk away.

Strange but true.

I think you're right DerbyshireLass we need to stop clinging on to the possibility that one they might change their minds and let them go.

I know that when I wrote my 'goodbye' email to our ES it was one of the most empowering things I'd ever done and still is.

I'm glad your conscience is clear; mine is too. I take no responsibility whatsoever for our estrangement and having said so before here on GN, opened me up for some very harsh and unjustified responses, from the 'you must have done/said something etc. etc.' brigade.

4 weeks,I know it will feel like a life time but honestly, you've come such a long way. You should be very proud of yourself.

Smileless......that is actually how I feel. A mixture of desperately wanting to hang on and try for some sort of rapprochement and an absolute terror of being put through the hell I have been in these last few weeks, and prior to that, the constant low grade anxiety, walking on eggshells, the appeasement, always trying to avoid a blow up.

The sad reality is, that the blow up happened anyway. Which is why deep down I just know that realistically a clean break would probably be for the best.

It's hard to swallow though. However, I'm beginning to realise that there has to be a cut off point. And maybe, the sooner the better. Because like you, I just don't think I could go through this again, not without serious repercussions for my health and well being.

Maybe we have to think about our own self preservation and just let them go. If they later reap what they have sown then it really isn't our fault.

Hand on heart I can say I've done my best. and that is all one can really do. If enduring love and the sacrifices I have made aren't enough for them, well I don't know what would be enough. My conscience is clear. I doubt that theirs will be, not in the long run.

I have had a leisurely Morning, just going to nip out and do some food shopping. Just going to have a quiet day, continue to gather my strength.

It's 4 weeks today since I saw them and the nightmare began. I have got this far, do I really want to risk the gains I have made on the off chance that some miracle might happen and we can be a family again. I am beginning to think the answer to that is a resounding no.

"otherwise they will pay a terrible price for their sins" a frightening thought isn't it DerbyshireLass.

According to our DS his brother felt guilty that Mr. S's mum had seen so little of two of her GGC. If that's the case, how will he feel when we've gone knowing that we never saw them?

This really bothers me, what are we supposed to do? If he did get in touch over and above the emails he sent when both of our mum's died, should we attempt to reconcile?

Should we put our fears to one side and risk our own well being threatened again by having them back in our lives?

I'm a coward, I accept that. I don't want him to ever reach out to us in that way because I don't ever want to have to say 'I'm sorry, I love you but I just can't do this'.

When he estranged us, I thought my life was over and there were times when I wanted it to be. I just didn't want to wake up in the morning and face another day without him.

He nearly destroyed us. It took every ounce of strength to claw our way out of the depths of despair, pain and misery we found ourselves in.

I couldn't do it again, I just wouldn't have the strength and fear that that desire to curl up into a ball and die would be too strong to fight a second time.

Smileless. You are right "sad heart syndrome" is definitely a thing. A smile,ar thjng happened to me a few years ago. I was admitted to hospital with a suspected heart attack, turned out it was "just" stdess.

Repeated stress, panic attacks, grief etc will damage our hearts, that's why it so important for us to learn to manage stress.

One day our children will realise what they have done. And it will be their turn to experience heartache, grief and remorse. For their sakes we can only hope that we are still around so they can make amends otherwise they will pay a terrible price for their sins.

I know I can never forgive my son or daughter in law ever again. And I will never trust my son. He has destroyed that trust forever. If he did get in touch I would be forever on my guard incase he did it again. Don't know if I could relax in his presence.

But as I can't see him ever getting in touch again it's all academic.

Glad you slept better DerbyshireLass. You can face anything after a good night's sleep.

Take care of yourselves all of you. We live to fight another day . ?

Whiff......Good to hear your are receiving such excellent care from your medical team. Take care of yourself and get strong and healthy again.

I am taking my own advice, determined to get well again. Actually feel much better today. I rested and relaxed more yesterday and had a really good nights sleep. It's made such a difference to how I feel today. Less anxious, less stressed and altogether more sanguine.

I have done a lot of thinking, asked myself some searching questions, as you do?. I have come to the conclusion that even if I am not going to be fully estranged and they do come crawling out of the woodwork, they will not apologise or try to make amends because they will not accept that they have done anything wrong.

DIL is full of self righteousness, she is always right, everyone else is out of step. Typical narc. And she's poisoning my son into believing that his behaviour is beyond reproach.

Everyone else is the bad guy.......you just can't reason with that kind of thinking. They will never accept responsibility for what they have done and the pain they have caused me. Only her feelings count, apparently I don't have any.

The other thing is....and I know this sounds harsh....but even if they did apologise I could never trust them again. I could never relax and be my authentic self because I would always be waiting for the other shoe to drop. It would only be a matter of time before she would kick off again.

If I'm honest then I don't think I could cope with repeated cycles of being in and out favour. And anyway I deserve better. I will definitely be very guarded in future. If there is to be contact I will be going forward with great caution. I will not build my castle on shifting sands.

I have gone through the shock, the pain, the anger and now accept that any hopes of a close relationship with my son and grandchildren are a pipe dream. At best it will be an arms length relationship with occasional contact, if I'm lucky.

If I don't expect anything then I won't be disappointed. I don't mean to sound negative, just being realistic. I am not going to let bitterness and hatred eat at my soul. I bear DIL no malice or ill will. She is ill and can't help herself. However, I can and will protect myself.

I have to accept that my son is already lost to me, he's just not the man he was. Maybe he will wake up one day and rediscover himself but I have decided I am not going to wait for that day. It's time for me to forward.

Whiff - you ask if your son ever thinks of you. My guess is he probably does but is probably too stubborn and proud and can't admit even to himself that he was wrong. I am sure that in time our wayward offspring will come to regret what they have done but first they have to accept humility and admit responsibility. Maybe that only comes with maturity, age and wisdom.

The lesson they have yet to learn is that actions have consequences. Sometime we only learn that the hard way.

My father was a narc. He treated his family with utter contempt. When mum died he finally woke up to the error of his ways and spent the last couple of years of his life tormented by regret and remorse, full of self loathing and bitterness. Karma.

I don't want that for my son.......but if I die before he wakes up then that is what will happen. But that's not my problem. He is 37 and a grown up. It his life and his choices.

Good news that your appointment went well Whiff and that you're being looked after so well.

You're right that when you know the relationship is over you can begin to heal. We didn't experience the 'will he 'phone'; 'will we see him' and 'will we see our GC' for very long' but it was still a terrible time. To be left with that deafening silence that goes on and on is cruel and the toll it takes on one's well being frightening.

When we were visiting our DS a few years ago in Aus., we rushed him to hospital, convinced he was having a heart attack. He was grey with a very bad pain across his chest.

Thankfully he was OK, he was having a massive panic attack. The doctor was lovely and when we explained what we were going through, he told us about 'sad heart syndrome'.

Prolonged periods of emotional stress and anxiety can actually damage the heart muscle. Mr. S's heart was fine but it was a wake up call, impressing in us how important it was to let go and move on with our lives.

Think 3 visits to the hospital caught up with me yesterday. Was so tired I fell asleep on the sofa after lunch.

My appointment at the AF clinic went well. I was with the nurse over a hour. I have got Paroxysmal Atrial fibrillation which means it comes and goes. When it happens I am to sit or lie still and relax. Unless I feel unwell don't need to go to the hospital. I am on blood thinners for life as I at higher risk of having a stroke. Because the beta blockers lowered my heart beat to much been put on a tablet to help my heart get back into rthymn. Have to have regular blood tests and ECGs. Which doesn't bother me. I can't get the tablet from my GP but they gave me 3 months supply. When I need more the clinic will authorise it. Had to stop one of my blood pressure tablets . Back at the clinic next Saturday.

I had taken a list of questions which where all answered. The health care here is excellent. My brother has permanent AF and is supposed to have an ECG every 6 months he hasn't had one for 2 years. Won't say what he thinks of his health authority.

But they should be moving house before Christmas. They have accepted an offer on their's and had an offer accepted on a bungalow in the north east. So they will be moving 100+ miles north from where they live.

Oh hell now morphed the thread into health and moving house thread ????.

For my peace of mind my son saying zero contact helped me come to terms with him cutting me out if his and my grandson's life. He wrote my daughter an email same time as me and she is also cut out of his life. But she has washed her hands of him. She never got on with his wife from the moment they met. But don't understand why he has cut ties with all our side of the family. At least he didn't send my brother a horrible letter or email. Otherwise my brother would have been up here like a shot and made him eat it.

OnwardandUpward and DerbyshireLass I wish you both could know for definite. It's not right that you are in a no man's land. They wouldn't like it if someone treated them the way they are treating you .

If you knew for definite at least you could find some peace. And get on with enjoying your life. Finding peace with my son's decision wasn't easy and I miss him and my grandson's everyday and wonder how they are. But it doesn't dominant my life. I have wobbles like I do over missing my husband. But once I get it out of my system that's it on to the next thing.

I hope everyone who is in this awful no man's land situation for it to be resolved one way or the other. So you can find peace . Knowing the relationship is over gives you chance to heal.

But I can't help but wonder does my son ever give me a single thought?

Here's hoping that your appointment goes better than yesterday's Whiff.

The uncertainty must be unbearable DerbyshireLass it's a form of torture, cruel and unnecessary. I suppose if they were to contact you, it would depend what they say, but all the apologies in the world wont take away that sense of insecurity that this experience will leave you with.

You're right OnwardandUoward appeasing doesn't work, if anything it gives more power and control.

Thanks Whiff All the best at the clinic today!

Derbyshiregirl I know what you mean about the uncertainty because this isn't the first time my son has stopped talking to me. When one of my GC was born he was not talking to me and it was actually my DiL who even told me that I was a GP! Like you, I just don't know. At three months this is the longest time for him. Before this is was 2 months.
He has MH issues, is extremely paranoid and does not like me getting along with DiL. In the past has done everything he could to sow seeds of discord in the relationship- so I think it was actually him who used her phone to block me rather than her doing it. She seemed to value family. I feel sorry for her as he has actually cut them off from everyone they know and not just us.

It's great you stopped appeasing. I have fallen into that trap with other relationships and even with my son in the past. He really could not handle it that I made my own decision about the vaccine and did not listen to what he was telling me. He is extremely controlling and I think it angered him that I thought for myself. Unless he is able to be less controlling and paranoid, I don't know how he would be able to have a relationship with anyone in the family in future, sadly.

Emotional stuff is so draining. I think it does take time and you're doing all the right things. Stay strong and keep talking We are in the same boat.

Good to see you are ok Whiff. Hope all goes well with the clinic today.

Had a terrible night, only managed about 3 hours sleep. Just can't stop the brain whirr. Still no point torturing myself.

I think the hardest bit is the uncertainty. Am I estranged or not, or is it just an extended period of silent treatment. It is taking me all my willpower not to contact them and blast them because I am actually getting very angry now. I know I need to a cool head.

Whatever mistakes I have made I do not deserve this.

My biggest mistake was not taking a stand earlier on. I kept walking on eggshells, kept appeasing DIL, acquiescing to her demands. Well as Neville Chamberlain found out, appeasement never works. The end result is just the same, it's just delayed.

I still don't know how to handle the situation should they decide to contact me. One thing is for sure, I will never be able to trust them after this. My relationship with my son will never be the same again.

The Darwin quote is brilliant. I can and will adapt. I guess it just takes time. Just wish I didn't feel so drained and exhausted.

DerbyshireLass glad to see you are getting on with living your life. It's hard to come to terms when a child you carried, nurtured ,protected and loved unconditionally turns their back on you. It is draining emotionally and physically. Your brain whirls none stop. I threw myself into attacking the garden to stop myself thinking. But of course you can't stop thinking no matter how you tire your body out. But at least the garden is as I want. So a positive out of a negative. I always try to find one.

Even yesterday . I met some lovely people and know my blood is fine and the rest are me okayish.

OnwardandUpward like the Darwin quote and your last paragraph is so true.

So glad youre home Whiff!

Derbyshirelass you're doing the right thing. It's a hard effort, but it's possible to change. Like Charles Darwin famously said "It's not the strongest but the most adaptable who survive"
I did actually think this would kill me, but it hasn't. I have probably gained a dress size in emotional eating and my health has suffered but I am still here soldiering on.

If I've learned anything at all this year it's that there is much joy and pleasure and kindness, fun and good in the world, despite suffering and pain- and that it's perfectly possible to feel both at the same time. That's so true that we need to cherish the siblings left behind more than ever. HUGS!

Whiff that is good news.

Onward and upwards.......I am trying to just focus on good things. Hard though to be constantly having to work on my mindset, very tiring,

Went to B&Q this Morning. After lunch I crashed out and slept for nearly 2 hrs. I guess my body is just telling me to rest and heal.

Still feel shattered, my eyes are sore and stinging although I haven't been crying today. Probably just tiredness.

You make a good point about focussing on the child who loves you. I am trying to do the same. The siblings are bound to be hurt when they are estranged or cast out. In our pain we mustn't overlook their pain and we need to cherish them more than ever.

Same with friends who love us and support us. I will never forget the kindness and love my friends have shown me this last couple of weeks. They have made a desperate situation more bearable.

So glad you're back home Whiff.

Thank you for all your kind messages. Safe back home. Being referred to cardio outpatients. AF clinic in the morning. ❤️❤️❤️❤️ To you all.

Sending you love and (((hugs))) Whiff[flowers} x