SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

3nanny6 so glad you got see and hold your new grandson. I spend every Friday afternoon with my daughter and grandsons and usually see them on a Thursday as well. The joy I take in those 2 boys is overwhelming. But I still miss my other 3 grandson's. One I have never seen or know his name he will be one next month.

Because I have photos of the 2 boys I know my daughter's eldest has ask me who they are I told him their names but not they are his cousins. He's 3.5 , when he's older and wants to know I will explain. He has 2 cousins on his dad's side he sees regularly.

On about social media replacing family I think that is right for some people. Because it's all one side . Our children can write what the hell they want about us and people believe them. One of the things my son said in his email and letter was that he and his family where not my show and tell things. What he didn't say is my daughter in law splashes everything over Facebook and thrashed me on Reddit.

I have never turned my back on anyone . As horrible my in laws where we never gave up on them . Even after my husband died I never gave up on his mom to the day she died.

I was brought with how important family is. My husband said when we had children they would be brought up as my brother and me where. And we did. Even now my extended family is important to me my aunts ,uncles and cousins.

Family is what keeps me going. Sometimes think to some people love , caring, respect , human decency are dirty words to them . I would hate to be like that. We brought our children up with good values . My daughter still has all hers don't know what happened to my son's.

Thank-you All for the kind messages about my new GS.
It is a happy time even though it has come amidst me still thinking of my other 3 missing GC whose memories can never be erased from my mind, although trying to keep in the present moment and have a little time to focus on the newest addition.
My son insisted that I visit the new Baby and I saw him on Wednesday and he is such a lovely baby although very tiny.
When I was handed him to hold my heart was beating so fast and tears were pricking my eyes and it was just magical to hold a tiny newborn. It felt like holding my own son all over again as even my sons partner says the baby is the double of my son and she is right there he is.
All take Care.

"Is family the equivalent of slow food - too much effort?" it does make you wonder doesn't it hugshelp. Easier to walk away and throw the relationship away than do some soul searching, have some possibly uncomfortable conversations in an attempt to find some compromises. Make an effort to maintain a relationship.

The Les Dawson m.i.l. was a skit on the husband's m.i.l., now it looks very much as if it's the wife's m.i.l. whose the m.i.l. from hell; her crime? Having a close relationship with her son.

I cannot fathom estranging either of our sons because they wouldn't jump through our hoops and were living in accordance with their values. Unbelievable and very sad CafeAuLait.

Whatdayisit: "Does that ring any bells. If you don't jump tgrough our hoops you are out"

Yes, this would be why my PIL estranged us. We didn't jump through their hoops/lived life according to our values. So still a value clash really.

Whiff - a year is no time at all. That is so very fresh.

hugshelp - I think you're right about generations. There seems to be a lot of competition and resentment between generations. Or maybe that's just how it comes across in the media. I'm not seeing it in my own family.

Soon not sokn

To the 'experts' analyzing estrangement it would be easy to portray the traditional Les Dawson type MiL. That is the hard bit that this is a seemingly newer phenomenon but you examine yourself - was i overbearing.
The acceptance that there are now people who are toxic in their behaviour and they come along like a thunderbolt.

I am sorry to use the term Generation Y - they are 1980 to 95 - i meant it as an identifying tool but i take what you mean about it being divisive hugshelp.

Your description of replacing families with social media is very powerful. I do find if you are not on it you are sokn out of the loop and harder to make the effort to stay in touch.

I don't know what official generation we're on now. What I do notice is how divisive this whole, 'boomers vs milennials vs generation x' narrative is. They are 'others', not 'us.'

Yes, we talked about "our generation" and "our parent's /grandparent's generations" but the very phrasing encompasses both differing views and shared relationship. They don't think the same as us but they are family.

The language and worldview have evolved together, fuelled partly social media? Co-operation has been replaced by combative stances. So easy to be a keyboard warrior. Harder to go out and make friends, reach out, bond. So easy to throw your family away when there is an army of Facebook friends who will ask "s'up babe? - ready to pander to your every meltdown, as long as they don't have to leave their seat.

Is family the relationship equivalent of slow-food—too much effort?

"In my own experience it was an obsessive jealousy of the time she hadn't been part of his life and it was her mission to wreck and stamp on that time so it was rubbished and devalued" well to say that that rings any bells would be an understatement Whatdayisit.

We don't know for certain, nothing was ever said in our hearing but it makes perfect sense. Her jealousy of our relationship with our ES, mine in particular, was obvious. She even admitted to me that she was jealous of my relationship with him, but said she'd 'got over it'; clearly not!!

My way or the highway hugshelp!

In my own experience it was an obsessive jealosy of the time she hadn't been part of his life and it was her mission to wreck and stamp on that time so it was rubbished and devalued.
My values of working hard and providing the best i could were trashed. Every part of my parenting skills and my achievements as a loving mum were scrutinised and spat out.
She looked through everything i had ever written online and stalked so many people connected to me on Facebook ( i left FB in 2015).
I don't know where any of this fits in with experts

I do think a lot of younger people (generation Y) expect us to jump through hoops to get to see GCs and that is before estrangement.
I have a gd who's mum used to message me with tales of woe of purses getting stolen on a monthly basis electric running out etc.
The more i handed out the nastier she got invited to gd's birthday party then told party was cancelled then photos on fb of amazing family party!
I stepped back from helping and just gave at xmas and bday then you become the one that doesn't care and only bothers with other gcs.
That wasn't part of the estrangement with my son that was a lady he had had a child with at 18. We have no control over these relationships but we are expected to kow tow at every opportunity or estrangement is imminent.
Does that ring any bells. If you don't jump tgrough our hoops you are out.x

Interesting thoughts cafe
I do think society is becoming highly polarised. There seems to be an increasingly prevalent view that you have to accept certain beliefs wholesale or you're on the wrong side to the fence. Whatever happened to live and let live, mutual respect for differing beliefs, compromise?

My heart goes out to you whiff. You are very brave.

Smiles thank you. But I am lucky to have you and others here who knows what it feels like. And to me I still have my husband. Not in a creepy way. But he is and always will be my husband and that's the way I want it. Hate being classed as single to me I am still married. But I am so glad I had the time I did with him even though it was cut short. I am lucky to have been loved and to love. Some people go through their whole lives and never know that love. ?

Perhaps Whiff but I hope you don't. I think it's sad that I do TBH. I've changed and think some of the nice bits have been ground down and some of the not so nice bits sharpened.

I'm glad your DH didn't see what your son has become, especially as he suffered at the hands of his own parents but I'm so sorry that he isn't there with you, supporting you on this painful journey.

Smiles perhaps in years to come I will feel the same about my grandson's. It's only been a year for me. I can not imagine how hard it is for you and Mr S. One thing I am glad of is my husband isn't here to see how our son has turned. He suffered at the hands of his own parents , we both did. I don't think he would have coped with our son doing the same thing.

I am glad he died loving and thinking the best of him . I know my husband very well he would not have dealt well with the loss of his son and grandson's .

The section of my post @ 10.52 you've quoted was not intended to imply that you have estranged anyone CafeAuLait. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Parents estranging their own children, because those children don't ascribe to their core values is just as extreme, painful and traumatic.

Your DH I'm sure will have experienced the same pain, distress and confusion that so many EP's experience so like you, I can see similarities. I have no idea what our ES's 'core values' would be, that feeling so strongly about meant we could no longer be a part of his and our GC's lives.

What could be so deserving and important, have such worth and usefulness (these being the key words in the definition of values) to supersede ones relationship with their parents or their own child.

As I question this from the perspective of an EP, no doubt your DH has done so too as an estranged adult child and you have also done as his wife.

I totally agree that the living bereavement experienced by EP's isn't the same as the bereavement associated with a death, for the reasons you have already mentioned, that said for me there are other reasons too.

There is no possibility of healing, the wound runs to deep and has yet, if ever to fully heal. There is no hope for us. After 8.5 years all hope has gone and we learned to our cost how destructive hope that goes unfulfilled can be.

For many estrangement like death, means there's no room for possibilities, the relationship is over and as you say "They are their own piece of awfulness".

I wouldn't turn our GC away if some time in the future they sought us out Whiff but I hope they never do.

PF you're in my thoughts too x

Good afternoon everybody. I just wanted to send congratulations to nanny on the wonderful news and to say that you are all in my thoughts. X

Whiff, I know you're in a very painful situation. Our children can bring such joy and such pain. Maybe your grandchildren will want to seek you out when they are older. I hope you get to meet them.

We are in very different situations, so can't compare. But I see similarities too. I'll leave that there.

Smiles the voice of reason as usual.

On about core values . I would never expect anyone to believe in what things are important to me nor would I impose those things on other people. Perfect example I am an atheist . I wouldn't never tell someone with faith they are wrong to believe. But I have had someone with faith tell me I am going to hell and burn for eternity. This was years ago, before I became more confident. Now I would give that person a blasting.

The only thing I did was move over 100 miles closer to live by my family. After years of my children wanting me to . But I had both parents and mother in law to look after. And only free to move once they had all died.

So that's my crime I moved . I live 40 mins away from my son by car. I don't drive . Only went to their house when he took me. But from when I moved here was never invited to their house. He used to come every week with the 2 grandson's I know. My daughter in law only came 3 times last boxing day 2019.

I have always treated my children equally and the same with both families.

Children do not come with manuals as we always told the children when they where growing up. And one day if they had children they would realise that for themselves.

I didn't cause my son to turn his back on me . He and my daughter in law did that.

He went from giving me a wonderful time on my birthday . Talking about putting paving down to make my garden safer for me. To 4 days later sending me the vile email.

What hurts and angers me so much is he knew what he was going to do on my birthday . Why didn't he tell me then. He wasn't brought up to be cruel and cowardly. I told him when he was 14-15 and he drunk a whole bottle of vodka and had to go too hospital never to make me ashamed of him again. And he has.

His dad had cancer at the time but at least he didn't make that an excuse for drinking the vodka.

Smiles knows what my daughter in law has said about me.

What annoys me is our children make up lies and re write things that happened to make themselves out to be the victims. Instead of facing up to what is going on in their lives. It's so easy to blame your parents . The only people that give love unconditionally. Who spend their whole lives protecting you and do everything in their power to help in anyway they can.

I have 2 children. Brought up the same ,given all the same opportunities . The difference is the people they love and want to spend the rest of their lives with.

My daughter has married a wonderful man . Thought my son had married a wonderful woman .
Just hope not having me in his life makes him happy. But my 3 grandson's will get older. Would love to be on a fly on the wall when they want to know why they have only one grandmother and no grandfather's. Or any family on their dads side. Bet they wouldn't tell the truth. But if my grandson's want to find me I am here. It's up to them. And if their parents think they can control them forever they are in for a rude awakening.

Not trying to upset anyone. Just thought I'd see what people thought, as I think it fits with my own situation, which is somewhat different to most here who are estranged by children rather than parents.

"To estrange the parents who raised you with love and care, to deny them their GC and those children their GP's because they don't agree with, or share "a principle or belief" you believe "as being of central importance" is extreme IMO."

I've never estranged anyone. My PIL estranged us.

The nice thing about the research is that it isn't looking at what children say or parents say (or siblings or another relationship). It's looking for trends in relationships in general while not excluding that your own individual situation might not fit the majority trend. It's not about blame either. The values it references aren't necessarily good or bad, they are just a value someone holds, for better or worse.

I think, as a bereaved parent, that estrangement is a different kettle of fish. Where there is estrangement, there is always the possibility of healing. You might hear how they are getting on. There might be hope. Where there is death, it's over. I might see the person I'm estranged from again. There could be healing there. But I will never see my child again. That's not to say there isn't grief involved because of course there is. It's just a different grief. Maybe where death is different is that there is resolution. It's over. No more possibilities or wondering about the future. I'd never compare the two though. They are their own piece of awfulness.

Wonderful news 3nannycongratulations on becoming a grandmother for the 4th time.

I forgot to say in that post Whatdayisit that after Mr. S. had taken his things down to the house, he sent him a text message to say they were on the doorstep.

I agree that we can "destroy ourselves with blame" and although in the past I've been slated (not on this thread of course) on GN for saying that I have never taken any responsibility for our estrangement, that is something I have never wavered on.

We're not perfect; who is? We made mistakes; who doesn't? But we don't deserve the way we've been treated and for me, the lies that have been told to 'justify' being estranged says it all.

That's interesting CafeAuLait and for me would depend on what those "core values" are. The dictionary definition of a core value is "a principle or belief that a person or organisation views as being of central importance".

To estrange the parents who raised you with love and care, to deny them their GC and those children their GP's because they don't agree with, or share "a principle or belief" you believe "as being of central importance" is extreme IMO.

Sorry to me so called experts can research and write books about estrangement all they like. But until it happens to you no amount of research helps. There can be similarities between what our children say and do but every case is unique.

It's like breavenment they are hundreds of books and research into it. But yet again every loss is unique.

Every person is different. Therefore every situation is different.

Trying to understand why our children do and say the things they do could drive you mad.

Only they know why they decide to turn their backs on us. Trouble is they will never admit it if they realise what a horrible mistake they have made.

They act like you don't count ,that we don't have feelings will continue in a bit workman just arrived.

I've been doing some reading into research relating to estrangement. The main conclusion I've seen from that is that estrangement happens when someone's core values, or a core value someone holds dear, is challenged or not accepted. How true do you think this rings?

I think this might be true in my case. MIL had a vision of her role as grandmother that didn't line up with my own parenting values. So she walked. I think maybe her vision of grand-parenting was a core value about who she wanted to be and she couldn't handle having it any other way.

Smileless2012
When you added that EAS said your husband had dumped his stuff i did a loud intake of breath of shock.
Nothing is right for them. That's why i kept away for so long because anything i did would have been scrutinised and spat back out by his partner, ds would have just put his head down while she banged on.

My poor husband wasn't estranged but not really in touch - we know the difference - and one of his sons has just taken his own life the day before Father's Day. He is feeling that it's pointed.
Modern family life is so charged with eruptive anger which is constantly bubbling.
I look at some families who float through ticking all the boxes.

I think we have a long road ahead trying not to destroy ourselves with blame.

Sorry in my post I should have said the children were left alone with a man and I did not think that appropriate. Also when my eldest GD came downstairs because she heard me he said to her why are you out of your bedroom? It was at that point I just walked in and unluckily for him he was smoking because my GD is badly asthmatic and it gave me a good excuse to put him in his place and tell him off about the smoke which soon shut him up.