Understanding estrangement

Derbyshirelass We all have times when we need to "monopolise", circumstances create the need to talk and that is fine

I think that the help and support with childcare or whatever can get taken for granted and then when it disappears it comes as a huge shock!!

I would always wonder if he'd have wanted to come back if that hadn't happened, and if not, why now!! I honestly don't think I will ever want him back under any circumstances Hilltop but I'll love him to my dying day.

Of course you're not monopolising the thread DerbyshireLass, this is what these threads are for and it's good to know that sharing here is helping you.

"this was always her endgame" it was our ES's wife's endgame too. Even if we'd been able to see what she was up too before it was too late, there's nothing we could have done about it.

I realise that now but it took some time and that was the only thing I've ever felt guilty about; how could I have been so blind and so stupid. I feel as if I should have protected him so he would be today the lovely young man he used to be, but I couldn't.

I wonder about 'unconditional love" too, l wonder how l would react if my son ever got in touch with me again and told me his wife had died. Would l want him in my life again, somehow l don't think so. Perhaps at a distance?? I just don't know.
How would other estranged mothers feel about it?

Thank you Madgran and Smileless.

I do feel that I'm monopolising this thread at the moment but it's so nice to be able to come on here and tell it how it is. To know that there are people who aren't judging me and finding me wanting, and of course to get some feedback and learn from those who have walked this way before me.

One starts to question ones sanity at times. Repeatedly rerunning things over in my mind. Asking myself, is it me, is it my fault. Did I spoil him. Did I make a rod for my own back by trying to ignore the signs that DIL was a narc. Could I have done things differently. My head tells me probably not, that this was always her endgame.

Nasty little games indeed. And you're so right, unconditional love shouldn't mean that we allow ourselves to be abused and humiliated. The longer this "dangling" goes on the more I feel any sympathy for them just slipping away.

Yes, you're right Madgran, I think I have reached my red line, not just with my DIL but also now with my son too. I know I'm not the first EP to say this.....but I never thought this could happen. My husband would be turning his grave. He would be so ashamed of his sons lack of moral fibre. He would be furious at the way I am being treated. He would be incandescent if he knew that they were using the children as leverage.

What the dozy pair don't seem to be capable of realising is that DS2 and I are more or less all the family they have in the U.K. apart from a couple of aunts who they also hold at arms length. What happens when something happens, will they still expect me to drop everything and run to their aid. I guess they will expect exactly that. Either that or they think they are invincible, that they are untouchable.

But as we all know none of us are invincible. Their hubris will be their undoing in the end.

I just feel absolutely drained and totally rung out today.

It's like being hit by a series of tsunamis.

Derbyshirelass sadly they may have to learn the hard way that their tactics are backfiring. Sad for them when they realise and it is too late. You have reached your red line as we all do in different situations...and that red line is a big shock to others!

Take care of yourself.

Oh DerbyshireLass as is so often the case, I'm afraid they probably do think they are entitled to call the shots; think that you shouldn't have any say in what's going on and that they can just pick you up then put you down when ever they feel like it.

They are cruel, your son is cowardly and IMO he is taking your love for him for granted. When our son wrote and told us we were no longer a part of his and our GC's lives and were to stay away, I honestly don't think he or his wife actually expected us to do so.

I don't think his brother thought we would either, but we did.

Perhaps they miss construe what unconditional love means. We love our children unconditionally, despite the pain and heart ache they have caused by estranging us/treating us badly.

We don't stop loving them but that doesn't prevent us from refusing to play their nasty little games and even for some of, realising that our lives are more peaceful without them.

Realising the extent of the damage they've done to your relationship even if they don't actually estrange you is hard and perhaps something else they haven't taken into consideration.

"I think I deserve more than that" you most certainly do. You deserve to be shown you are loved, you deserve to be hugged and spoiled now and again with little gifts just to brighten your day.

So ............. BIG(((hug))) x

Feeling really fragile today. Tears keep pricking my eyes but I keep fighting them back. I know tears can be a blessed release but I feel, just like the old song, that I have cried a river over this.

Still no contact from either of them. I don't know whether it's just the "silent treatment" to punish me or whether it is now a full blown estrangement. I guess only time will tell. Very rude though. And it feels like they think they are entitled to call all the shots, that I have no say in the matter, that they can just pick me up and then put me down whenever they feel like it.

Well they need to make their minds up, pdq because I'm running out of all sympathy or patience. There's a very coarse expression......they either need to p* or get off the pot.

What they don't realise is that their avoidance technique is backfiring. Mind games don't work with me. Not only am I getting angrier by the day but I am beginning to lose all patience with my son. I'm beginning to despise the pair of them, her for her rudeness, abuse and pathetic attempts at emotional blackmail and him for being such a gutless coward,

One thing has occurred to me......even if this is not an estrangement our relationship has taken a real battering. I will never be able to fully relax around them or trust either of them again. Do I really want a relationship that is so one sided, where there can be no trust and where I will forever be walking on eggshells, always fearful of estrangement.

I think I deserve more than that. I think I deserve to be more than merely tolerated. If they don't want me in their lives then they should have the common decency to say so.

In the meantime, I just keeping busy. I went shopping, bought diy supplies and then food shopping, I have just finished the last bit of fence painting. Going to have a snack and then make a start on the shed.

I feel really tired and don't really feel like working but it will do me good, better than sitting around feeling helpless.

Tbh honest I feel that I have been on a long journey. One that has tested me almost beyond endurance at times.

First my husbands long illness, I was his carer for many years. Then his death, then my parents deaths. I lost all three of them within 2.1/2 years. I had to deal with all the legal stuff, sell houses. It was a tough time, my stress levels were through the roof.

I got really sick.....my IBS flared up, my Adrenal glands were shot, I developed thyroid problems, fibromyalgia, arthritis - you name it. All linked and all stress related. I then had two bad car crashes, damaging my shoulder. I tore my meniscus on my right knee. The list of minor illnesses and petty injuries just seemed endless but I have fought back. and am much better now.

It took me a long while to regain my health and recover some of my old vitality. It's only this last year or so that I finally felt that I had turned a corner, and that I was back on track. This is why I am fighting so hard to stay healthy and not allow estrangement to derail my efforts. This is why I have decided to banish DIL, even if it means losing my son. I will not let her make me ill.

I am not a person of faith. I have no religion to sustain me (I sometimes wished I had) so I turned to the world of psychology and philosophy to try to get through it all. I got interested in personal development and life coaching and it is from these that I have been able to develop coping skills.

I practise meditation, do yoga, and keep a journal. I listen to podcasts and TED talks of motivational speeches. I have recently discovered a practice called "Miracle Mornings". I can thoroughly recommend it. There's a book but you can get all the information about it free on the internet, just Google Miracle Mornings. It's all about how you start the day, getting into the right mindset and that how you start the morning determines the tone of your day.

I have been following my practice for about 2 months now. I dont follow it slavishly, I have adapted some of the routines to suit me. But it has made a huge difference. I did backslide last week, I didn't take the time out to exercise properly but I did manage to keep up with journalling and of course I discovered you lovely lot. This thread and my journal are all the therapy I need.

I am so pleased with what I have achieved today. Working with my hands always stills the negative chatter in my brain. I find gardening in particular very therapeutic, it really helps with stress management, although not quite sure whether fence and shed painting could be classed as true gardening.? The fresh air was lovely and I feel a lot more relaxed tonight.

Just taking baby steps......

@Derbyshirelass I admire your grit and style! You have got some great coping mechanisms there! Thanks and you're right about the countenance! I am working on a smooth (ish) forehead (no botox here!) but stress free! I love the positive changes you're making to your life and your view, that your son can choose to join you - or not.

Whiff thanks. I know it doesn't really help but I'd love to see photos of them happy , even if it didn't include me. Just to know they were happy and thriving even without me would do. But I don't think he looks well I probably should stop looking. I might do a massive delutter too. I still have garden toys etc that need to go.

Smileless my GC pics are not online. They used to be, but not since my son got involved with the cult. We drove past their house yesterday and today because of where we needed to go. I would rather we didn't go that way, but DH was driving and then I found that I was looking out, desperate to see sight of them alive and well, but nothing- then I was crabby and upset. I am pretty concerned for their wellbeing and just to see them alive and well, in daylight and thriving would be something. I read advice about families with a cult member and it says that you should keep telling them you love them. So far, I haven't done that. Unfortunately because of his MH he is vulnerable and I now know he's being controlled by the group.

So sorry about your son being so henpecked Derbyshirelass That must be so hard to see. My son is very controlling of his wife and yet hes being controlled by an online group. Gardening is very therapeutic. If it wasn't for elderly relatives who we look after and my husbands job, we would like to move far away for a fresh start. It's just not possible at this time. I can definitely understand those wanting to!

Those who live alone....??

Yes, weekends can be difficult, especially for those who live. That's why I set aside weekends for diy or gardening. I find keeping busy helps a bit.

I have just about worked myself to a standstill. But it has helped lift my mood, and of course being out in the fresh air all day has to be beneficial to my emotional well being. I feel very tired but well pleased with what I have achieved today. It's given me a bit of a boost.

What kind of an area would you like to move to. Have you started having a good look round. Would it help to stay a couple of nights somewhere and see if you like it. Just try it on for size.

I am seriously think of renting for a while next time. Maybe try one or two different areas, see where I'm like best. Maybe even a completely different town. I currently live in a suburb, about 3 miles from the city centre. Nothing special but pleasant enough. I don't know whether to move closer into the city or whether to look at some of the smaller satellite towns. It won't happen until next year at the earliest so plenty of time to mull it over.

But the more I think about it, the more the idea of moving appeals. A nice fresh start.

I wish I could find an area to move away from all the memories here. I used to want the relationship I had but like others have said, it’s not there anymore, they are different people. Weekends are the worse where I live it’s all families, feel more alone at weekends.

Smileless I think putting some physical distance between yourself and your ES was a wise thing to do. I will probably do the same when I sell up and downsize. I won't be following them on social media either. Needless torture.

Yes my son is a changed man. No longer the happy smiler but in his place a very much diminished man. He doesn't even take care of his health and fitness anymore. He has gone from being an adventure loving athlete to a humourless sad creature who runs around like a headless chicken, waiting hand and foot on DIL, pandering to her every whim. I can't stand to see it.

And I just can't fathom how he allowed himself to become so henpecked and so beaten down. Where's his manhood, where's his pride and dignity. I hardly recognise him any more. His father would be appalled. Tbh I lost my real son a while ago. I just wouldn't admit it.

We must not torture ourselves, that way lies madness.

Good advice from Madgran Alfiebear, putting the ball firmly in your H's D's court will make future contact her decision rather than yours.

Wills are a difficult subject without a doubt. We have changed ours, making our DS sole beneficiary. Our wills state that our ES was amply provided for during our life time, and of course there's the money we invested in their house which although contrary to the agreement, is unlikely to ever be re paid.

The first paragraph of your post earlier certainly resonates with me DerbyshireLass. I was truly shocked to see how much our ES had changed/deteriorated physically.

That was the last time I saw him about 3 years ago when we drove past his house. I'm so relieved that because of our move, I'll in all probability, never see him again.

Don't torture yourself OnwardandUpward. I understand the temptation, Mr. S. kept looking for and finding photo's of our GC on line. The problem was, he'd show them to me even though I didn't want to see them.

It's bad enough when they pop up from time to time on FB because of some anniversary or other, those being of our ES not the GC.

OnwardandUpward don't torture yourself by looking at photos of your son online. You have done all you can there is nothing you can do. Time to draw a line under that chapter in your life.

Concentrate on people who love and care for you and who you love and care for. Past is gone. The present and future is yours for the making. So make the best present and future you can. Life is short and you need to live it to the full. Doing what you want being the person you know you are.

If there are things or places you have wanted to do or go . Do them . It's time to put your wants and needs first. And do it with your head held high. No looking back.

DerbyshireLass thank for your kind words. Never know if what I write makes sense but it's how I feel about things.

I had a massive declutter before I moved and thought I was being very good and still had to declutter once in my bungalow. It's so freeing getting rid of stuff. I love my par down living. Did whittle my books down from over 500 to 300 but guilty of adding to it. Also my cross stitch stash has gotten larger.

I sold all my unwanted jewellery before my son decided he didn't want me. As neither my children wanted anything. So that brought the double bed and mattress for the spare room. Sold a few other things. But the rest went to charity before and after my move.

Don't blame yourself for putting up with your daughter in law's behaviour you put up with it same as me because we love our sons and grandchildren. In my case I loved my daughter in law but she killed that love with one sentence.

Love your last paragraph. My son had grit seems it ground down to fine sand.

Onward and upwards...

How sad that your son has changed so much. Yes I'm afraid bitterness and hatred will show in the face. Bitterness is a poison which destroys its host. Hatred warps the very soul. Not surprised he has aged 10 years. A serene and youthful countenance cannot be had when rage, bitterness and hatred are allowed to run amok.

Which is why I'm letting go of all the negativity. Trying to be a realist and accepting what will be. Que Sera and all that. I will not poison myself with hatred and bitterness.
At the same time I am not going to be a passive victim, I am going to make a fresh start and continue life's journey with joy and hope driving me forward. If my son wants to join me and share that journey then great, if not then that's a shame but I'm not going to torture myself any more.

I've done my level best. Like all loving parents I have made sacrifices and compromises. I have done everything I can to be a good MIL and for my pains I have been kicked in the teeth.

You are so right, we can't change others, we can only change ourselves. I am going to embrace change and look forward to a more peaceful and stress free future.

Good Morning Everyone

Whiff......What a lovely post, you have really made my day. Such words of kind and gentle wisdom. Fair brought tears to my eyes.

Sword of Damocles. You're right, that's just what it is. But I'm not going to sit around waiting for that particular sword to fall. This morning I wrote in my journal and drew up an action plan to move forward with my life. If my son wants to be part of it then that would be wonderful, if not well I will endure. But my DIL won't be allowed back into my life ever again. She's burned her bridges and I'm not after rebuilding them.

You are right Whiff, we really don't deserve this.

None of us is perfect, we all make mistakes, sometimes wires get crossed and misunderstandings happen, but when our offspring just throw a strop and refuse to discuss things in a rational, adult manner then there's not much we can do to put things right. Tantrums are acceptable for toddlers, but not for 30 somethings.

I can't speak for your son or for the adult children who have estranged their families but it occurs to me that maybe some of them haven't yet earned their stripes as grown ups. They just don't have our resilience, they can't control their tempers and haven't got a handle on their emotions. When the going gets tough they have a hissy fit, throw in the towel and look around for someone to blame, instead of digging deep and finding inner strength.

As you say, they play the victim, instead of taking ownership of their problems and looking for solutions. It's so much easier for them to abdicate all responsibility and blame others. Maybe one day they will mature a little and realise just what they are doing. But, I'm not holding my breath. By then I could be long gone.

I do blame myself. I should have been more careful about setting boundaries. By constantly giving into DILs demands I gave away my own power and compromised my integrity. I was a fool. Well now I'm claiming my power back, that's why she is banished. She will never have the power to control me ever again.

I have drawn a line and I'm starting again. It won't be the first time. I have had dark times in my life before and I lived to tell the tale. Becoming a widow has changed me, it made me realise that I have hidden reserves of strength and power. I feel that the worst thing that could happen to me has already happened. I survived that, I can survive estrangement.

Ultimately it's their loss, not mine. I lived without DIL in my life for 65 years, I can live quite happily without her for the rest of my days. Living without my son and grandchildren will be much much harder but I'll find my way. Yes my world will be a sadder, greyer place but I will rebuild my life. I can't live in the shadows for ever. I will choose joy and happiness. No more drama, just quiet satisfaction, peace and contentment.

It occurred to me this morning that I probably have a window of about 6-8 weeks to finish sorting out my garden and tackling some outside jobs. So that's where I'm going to concentrate my efforts. I have just finished painting the last 4 fence panels. Next I'm going to cut back some shrubs, get the jet washer out and maybe do some weeding if I'm not too tired after all that. Tomorrow I will visit B&Q and buy some paint for the shed. That's next weeks job.

The plan is to get as much of the outside work done as possible before winter sets in. Then, over the winter, I am going to have a massive declutter and freshen up the interior. I'm going to upgrade my environment and elevate my style. Create a beautiful home, a place of peace, comfort and sanctuary. Treat myself to some nice new accessories. After all I won't be having to buy DIL lunches or pay for takeaways any more will I. ??. I'll spend my money on me for a change. And whilst I'm at it.....I'm going to revamp my own personal style, treat myself to some new clothes.

I am going to sell some of my treasures (stuff that was earmarked for DIL, jewellery, nice porcelain, etc). I shall put the money towards a holiday next year, Covid permitting).

Time to be a bit selfish and start putting my needs first. Time to resurrect some of my long forgotten dreams and see if I can make a few of them come true. Now that covid restrictions are easing I am going to take up some new hobbies, join some clubs or groups, meet new people.

If the likes of Tina Turner, Madonna and Kylie can reinvent themselves and come back from adversity, then so can I. ?. I am not going to just lie down and feel sorry for myself, I am going to pick myself up by the scruff of the neck and make a fresh start.

Right, breakfast break over, time for that garden.........release my frustrations by having a good hack at the overgrown shrubs.

My friends - we can do this. We are strong, powerful resilient women. Maybe that's why our DILs hate us, they can't control us and bend us to their will. Just a pity our sons haven't inherited any of our grit.

Derbyshiregirl I don't think you are being a "Negative Nellie" but it makes sense to be realistic.
It's true, we can't change anyone but ourselves. So sorry for the loss of your husband, that makes all of this even worse. I can't adequately put into words how sad this makes me, especially for you and Whiff who have lost your husbands.

Whiff good to be yourself and know you are a good person! I too know I have done everything possible to be a loving parent AND YET my son still blames me for things.

I saw a photo of him online and his face looks bitter and twisted. He has frown lines he never used to have and looks like he aged ten years since I last saw him. So, all the rage and bitterness he has towards me has only harmed him. It's sad, but I can't even reach out to him because the change has GOT to come from him. He tried to coerce me into joining the occult cult he is a part of and dropped me when I wanted nothing to do with it. Now heavily into the occult, the strain is showing in his face. I can see he is not happy or thriving, but he has made his choices.

Hilltop estrangement is another form of grief. But the people we are grieving over are still alive. When my husband died I was surprised by the anger and rage I felt . Felt wicked then realised it's part of grieving. I felt that same anger and rage after my son decided as he put it no longer wanted or needed my vindictive and manipulative influence any where near him or his family. Zero contact.

Felt that rage and anger after going through all the other emotions. Like with my husband a tidal wave of grief hits me out of the blue so I just have a good cry and get it out of my system. I learnt the hard way after my husband died holding your emotions in only hurts you and makes them worse. So letting your emotions out helps you cope. Because once they are out of the way you can face whatever life throws at you.

Had 2 wobbles this week Friday was my son's 34th and his second son's 3rd birthdays . And yesterday was the date all my cards and presents came back with the letter than made it final he doesn't want anything to do with me. Exactly a year ago.

But with the help of Smiles and all of you I have got through it and found peace. Life is to short for what if's. My husband dieing taught me that. I know I have said all this before but it's still true.

As with bereavement not emotion you feel over Estrangement is wrong.
For me it's grieving for the son that I knew and my 3 grandson's. Looking at the last photo I had of the my 2 grandson's . The oldest ones features are probably the same but he will be taller and his brother won't look the same. His hair might not be black anymore. His brothers used to be black but it changed. And the baby no idea what he looks like or his name.

But I know I haven't done anything wrong no matter what my son and daughter in law have accused me of. They have re written history to make themselves feel better. And justify what they have done.

But they forget I and the rest of the family know the truth. So they can play the victims all they like. Their choice. But there will come a reconning day. And Karma will bit them both on the arse.

DerbyshireLass I wouldn't let my son and daughter in law change who I am. I am a good mom, mother in law and grandmother. Plus I am a good person. I know myself very well warts and all.

You know yourself as well. You know you are a good mom , mother in law and grandmother. Plus being a good person. We have no control over who our children fall in love with. We just hope they love someone who is worthy of them . Unfortunately they can love ones that don't love or care for us.

I was able to find peace with my son's final letter. Zero contact he wants zero contact he has got. Hope it makes him happy .

There is still some hope for you which makes it difficult. Cutting ties with your daughter in law is good you can't put up with that harassment. But until your son decides what he is going to do it's like having the sword of Damocles hanging over your head.

I know what that feels like and it's horrible. It's how we felt after my husband's diagnosis of cancer and being told he wouldn't live 5 years. When it dropped it was devastating but at least we knew the end was in sight. After he died the grieving could start unfortunately it never ends.

May be a bad example but can't think of another one.

Be who you know you are and want to be. Don't let anyone change you. You have a son who loves and cares for you unconditionally. Cherish him . And other family and friends who feel the same about you. And hopefully you can find some peace.

Thanks Onwards and Upwards. I too hope against hope but I'm resigned. I don't think it's going to end well. Sounds like I'm being a bit of a Negative Nellie but I just can't see a way out.

She won't change, if I give in it will only feed her ego and make things even worse. If I walk away she will punish me. It really is a lose-lose scenario. But I have to take a stand. I won't let her take my self esteem and dignity.

Yes that sadness underpins everything doesn't it. It's a constant ache, even when I am busy and focussed on other things it's still there, still drawing me back.

What gets me is I that I think I am starting to feel ok and then wham, my heart starts pounding again, my stomach starts doing somersaults, I start to feel shaky and I feel awful. Or, at other times, I start to cry And then, when I try to think about the future......well let's just say it doesn't look very inviting.

Im fine if I keep busy, but when I stop in the evening, that's when I start to fall apart. I start to feels anxious and it all starts up again.

Hilltop.......We have every right to feel anger. Righteous anger. We have been/are being treated most shamefully.

I totally get why estrangement is called living bereavement. There's no closure. It's like an open wound which won't heal.

All I can hope is that over time the anguish will recede.

These are supposed to be our golden years. I've already had my future torn away from me by my husbands death. Just when I was starting to put the pieces of my life back together, this happens.

Oh yes, I'm angry all right.

Just watching some 80s pop music on the TV. The decade the boys were born. Every song a memory of the good times...... the children and I singing along, dancing in the living room, having fun.

It's like a knife in the heart isn't it.

Ah, I do hope you don't actually become estranged Derbyshirelass It's very painful. So sorry for your sadness, Hilltop I cry pretty easily when I am reminded of my loss (and cannot stop thinking about them) so it's pretty often. Getting angry is part of the grieving process. It's horrible, isn't it. The crazy thing is, there IS a bond and if we think of them this much maybe they also can't forget us. I hope that charities such as Estrangement charity Stand Alone can help people. I applied to join their secret Facebook group, but so far have not had a reply. Probably they are overwhelmed.

I have been sad all this time. But l just think I am going to get Angry too

I have had a really productive day, feels good.

My husband had not been well for a few years before he died. Although he was very considerent to me and helped me all he was able, the solicitor would not agree to make a new Will for him as he had a mild form of dementia. Our Wills had been made some years before we were estranged.
If l had died before him and although l had altered my Will in a way to see that my daughter would inherit more my son would have got almost half if my husband was last to die as his Will treated both of our children the same.
My Will still leaves my son a small amount but I think l will change it as l don't want him to know anything about when l die.

We had given our son and daughter in law money when they first married for a deposit for a house. I sort of noticed that she didn't thank us but thought nothing of it. When we were being estranged she said that we had only given the money to our son.
This l can not make sense of at all. Yes, we wrote the cheque in his name, but l expect they bought the house in both names and of course we knew she'd be living there with him.
But we'd done it wrong. We apparently had been trying to split them up from the beginning.