Understanding estrangement

I take your point exactly Allsorts. It really would be better to adopt a wait and see policy. A lot can happen over the next few months or so.

This estrangement milarky is all new to me.....in fact it's not even confirmed yet. I am just trying to make sense of it all and wondering what might come next. But in my heart and soul I feel pretty sure it's inevitable. Just trying to prepare for the worst, whilst hoping for the best.

Whatever happens I do not want my DIL to benefit from my death, some things can never be forgiven. She has crossed a line and is now firmly beyond the pale. However, I most definitely don't want to cut my son out of my will unless I have no alternative. I am hoping some kind of discretionary trust.

Here's how I see the various options.............

If she chews him up and spits him out after I am dead she will bleed him dry and he will be in dire financial straits.

If she does it whilst I am still alive I might be able to help him.

If I leave him his share unencumbered whilst they are still married she will burn through it no time and he will once again be left in dire straits.

It's a dilemma, that's for sure. I just want to protect him as best I can.

Of course if he turns on me (which he might, there's still time) then I will bypass him completely and set up a trust for the children, for when they are adults. If they wish to help him out then that's up to them.

As for me waiting a number of years until I make a decision. I am now 70, how many years do I have. I could live another 30 years but I mustn't pin all my hopes on that.

Anyway I don't have to think about it today.?

I would not change a will until all hope has gone, you have had a recent estrangement and things can change. I did nothing for many years until I was sure there would not be a reconnection as too much harm at been done for me to accept. Some people might not agree with my decision but I when I did it, I wrote a letter explaining why and lodged it with the solicitor.

Thanks Whiff for the clarification about wills. I will have a good long think before I make any decisions and obviously will take good legal advice.

As I say, despite having had to put with DILs unpleasantness for several years now and often being made to feel Persona Non Gratis (sometimes even from my son on occasion if I'm honest) it never once entered my head that I might change my will. But this week has really pulled me up and made me think.

As you say, if they dont want me in their lives now then I'll be damned if they benefit financially from my death.

I wouldn't dream of trying to buy their affection or even the chance to see my grandchildren. If I do make any changes they wouldn't even know until after the event.

Alfiebear I would discuss with your husband but my instincts would be to reply once more, a polite and unemotional note saying something along the lines of:

"We would be pleased too see you at the party. However if you feel that you cannot attend then that is entirely your prerogative we will accept your decision."

This puts the decision ball entirely in her court!

If she responds asking again for money or making emotionally charged comments about her dad and mental health problems I would reply along the lines of:

" We are unable to give any more money for the reasons we explained previously. We understand that you are angry with your dad. ...."

If your husband is willing to have a conversation and listen to her, maybe follow on with:

"If you would like to have a conversation about your feelings we are here"

You are absolutely right not to give any money in this present scenario!

DerbyshireLass my husband is always with me. When I was in the garden this morning I was talking out loud to him. My neighbour was in his garden the back of me he is lovely. I never feel bonkers talking to my husband and my neighbour is quite used to me talking to him and myself.

The subject of wills. Under English law your will can be consented up to 2 years after you die by anyone who thinks they have a claim to any money or property. I didn't know that until I changed mine last year. I had to think long and hard before cutting my son out of it. But if he doesn't want me alive he will not benefit when I die.

To protect my daughter who is now my sole beneficiary who doesn't want my money. I had to get a letter from my GP stating I have a neurological condition not a mental illness and that I am of sound mind. I also had to write a letter about why I was cutting my son out of my will. My solicitor wanted me to write about my life, my husband's cancer and death . About looking after my parents and mother in law. Also what my relationship was like with my son. I wrote 13 pages of A4 paper. That was a weekend from hell. I had to relive things I had long come to terms with. It will never see the light of day unless my will is contested and is read out in court. Along with the email and letter he sent me. I also took out both powers of attorney at the same time. My daughter and son in law are my attorneys. They won't come into force until I am unable to look after my own affairs or health. Hopefully they will never be needed.

I had assumed it was your choice who inherited once you wrote your will but it's not that simple. My son will not be told when I die by my daughter or solicitor and my funeral arrangements will not be publicised.

I had wanted to arrange a cremation only and pay for it now . When I told my daughter she said no she wants a funeral but she will see to it. But told me not to die for at least 20 years. Told her I will do my best to keep going.

Today when I was gardening, a sweet little Robin came with inches of me, stayed with me for ages. This is not the first time this has happened. "They" do say a Robin is sent by our lost loved ones to comfort us in our time of need. Not sure if it's actually true or not, but if so, it's a lovely thought.

I have been comforted this week by my husbands memory. He's still in my heart. I have sensed him close to me this week, watching, guiding and caring. I know it sound bonkers....? but I do feel his presence, helping me through this last awful week. And even if he didn't send the Robin, it was still lovely to see one so close up and spend a few minutes talking to it.

I would echo Whiffs advice. You have already said no, quite rightly, just stick to your guns.

When my husband died I did split the insurance money between my two sons, so they could each get on the property ladder. Like Whiff and her husband, no one helped my husband and I but thanks to my husbands foresight there was a generous insurance payout. He bought it to ensure his family's financial well being and security. I didn't need it or want it. To me it felt like "blood money" which is how I tend to feel about inheritances in general if I'm honest.

I accept and appreciate the generosity of those who have left me money and am very grateful but I always feel saddened. I would much rather have those people in my life, rather than their money. I like to think that most right minded people feel the same

Clearly your husbands daughter doesn't. She doesn't want you in her life, therefore I see no reason why she should want his/your money either. She can't have it both ways.

I also think she is being rather presumptuous just assuming there IS an inheritance.

My understanding is that no one has a right to an inheritance (at least not under English Law,) rather it is in the gift of the benefactor. In Europe it is different, family does have certain legal rights to a share of the estate and cannot be written out of a will. . Not sure about places like the US.

But my understanding is.......here in England at least, provided that SOME provision is made for adult children then the will cannot be contested. I am further given to understand that that provision could be as little as £1. But I'm skating on thin ice here, so please do you own research.

If indeed that were the case, then I would tell said daughter of course she can have her inheritance early, with my blessing. And she would receive just £1. I would of course change my will too.

Oddly enough the question of inheritance has crossed my mind this week. At the risk of sounding horribly vengeful I do not want my DIL to benefit financially from my death, but by the same reasoning I don't want to punish my son if he remains blameless. Obviously if he turns against me too, then that will be a different matter.

I am not going to do anything rash, I will give the matter some thought and then I will probably see my solicitor to see what can be done, probably some sort of trust.

I would feel no guilt if I had to write my son out of my will if he estranged me, he has had a substantial sum already. Up until this week I wouldn't have dreamed of cutting him out of my will, now I'm not so sure. But as I said I am not going to be rushed, I will take my time and take advice.

I still think that when DIL realised my son owned his own house she saw ££££££££ signs. She is obsessed with money and status. Her spending is terrifying. She calls me cheap and yet, when she invited me out to lunch and promised to pay, her credit card was declined and guess who ended up paying.......

And, just last week, she calmly accepted my generous offer to pay for a takeaway. Never asked what I would like to eat, just ordered what she wanted. Then just two hours later that series of abusive texts began.....

You couldn't make it up.

Like Whiff has said some of our young people do seem to have a grotesque sense of entitlement. Not all of them, I'm sure most of them are lovely. Thankfully my sons never felt that way, they were extremely grateful for their leg up onto the property ladder. However, one does hear some terrible stories of some adult children's greed, avarice and their overwhelming sense of entitlement.

My advice, talk things over with your husband, after all she's his daughter but don't allow her to bully you or your husband into parting with your savings. And certainly do not take equity out of your home. Your need is greater than hers. She's still a young woman, with what sounds like good earning power, thanks to the education you helped fund. Let her work for her dream house.

I totally agree with Whiff Alfiebear, she clearly sees the only benefit to her with this relationship being a financial one. With such an overt display of entitlement I'm amazed she was invited to your DH's birthday celebrations.

My advice is not to contact her again, perhaps send a birthday card/Christmas card but that's all. Do so in the knowledge that it may be some time before you hear from her again.

Let us know what you and your DH decide and how things are going.

Sorry about typos it’s prescriptive text, I check as I go along @nd push send, then a gremlin gets involved and changes it.

Alfie, I fully enforce what Whiff has said. The cheek of her leaves you speechless., I did help mine but they never asked, one I helped more than the other due to legitimate reasons. They are both hard working and honest. One I rarely see but I love her very much, I don’t understand why I’m not wanted, I couldn’t do that to anyone not least own mother who loved you so much, but obviously she views things her way. Even if I couldn’t live some one I would have to know they wanted for nothing, but I have never cut anyone off.
To just call her own father once a year, must be heartbreaking for him, Shane on her, she cares just for herself, your money you earnt, you want to ensure you get the retirement you deserve. No one know how long they have so you both enjoy life. ?

Alfiebear20. My advice is not to do anything. She has made her feelings perfectly clear. She only wants money and nothing else. She has already made her choice she doesn't want either of you.

You and your husband need to live your lives as you want. As you said the house is for your future care. None of know us how long we have got and being widowed at 45 has taught me to live life to the full.

Also if she wants more money then she needs to work harder and save more. Also what she already has enough for a nice house what does she want a palace?

Even though my son and daughter in law have done what they have. I am proud they saved and brought their own house as my daughter and son in law have.

No one helped my husband and me we had to work and save for our first house.

Why do some adult children think their parents will bank roll them when they want their own homes.

Words like hard work , saving, doing without and sacrifice seem foreign to some adult children.

You say you have 2 amazing children and granddaughter. Which is great. Don't waste your time on someone who doesn't love or care for either of you. When you have family that does. And who you love and care for.
Concentrate on them and yourselves.

Advice please.

My DH and I have been married for 25 years. We have three adult children between us. My husband’s divorce was very acrimonious. The issue is with his oldest daughter who is almost 34 years of age.

She is very successful, has a fantastic job. In the 25 years the relationship has been fraught. We funded her financially through university but she still wants more.

We retired last year after 40 years of hard work and we have taken our pension early as the state pension does not yet kick in.

January this year we received the yearly call and was asked if she could have her inheritance and could we equity release money from our house and gift it to her so she could buy a better house in London. She has a deposit of £150k £260
Mortgage but needs more.

We said no as we have three children and if we do it for one we have to do it for the others. The house is intended for our future care.

We were called all names under the sun saying that her Dad had caused her no ends of mental health problems. We asked where do we take the relationship and she said she would review her position.

We sent her an invite for my DH birthday. We have received a text saying that as we have not bothered to contact her in eight months she does not feel she can come as we have done nothing to sort this out ?

Would love to hear how you would take this forward.

We have never had cards/ texts only if she wants something. The other two adult children are amazing along with our granddaughter.

Thank you

Thanks Bridie. Very true, very wise.

That's it coffee break over, time to get cracking.

DerbyshireLass
"Wounds can become wisdom with the right perspective"?

Ooh Smileless. That's very clever of you to think of that, it would be evidence for him wouldnt it, never thought of that. Thanks for that.

Yes it's been one hell of a week but I got through it. Felt very ill at first, quite scary. Had this constant low level anxiety and feeling of dread. Couldn't eat, just felt drained. It took all my strength to get through the first couple of days.

Thank God for my lovely DS2 and all my fantastic friends. DS2 was here yesterday and he couldnt have been sweeter if he tried. Funny, because as a child he was always the difficult one, and a truly obnoxious teenager, whilst his eldest brother was a dream come true. Never a cross word.

Maybe that's his problem, maybe he's just too nice....

Whilst I don't want him to be another divorce statistic that would be the best out of a bad job. But it's not my decision to make. Whatever he decides I will do my best to support him.

I've just been washing down some cupboards, now off out into the garden, need to cut down some overgrown shrubs and then jet wash the fence so I can paint it.

Just going to keep busy and try to remain positive.

If there comes a time when your son does see his wife in her true colours and maybe decides he wants a life without her, the written messages you've received from her, could prove useful in ensuring your son doesn't lose all contact with the children DerbyshireLass.

You've had one hell of a week haven't you, yet despite your scary ride on the emotional roller coaster, you have your feet firmly planted on the ground. Your courage and insight will serve you well whatever the future holds.

Good Morning all

Bit of a restless night as you can see from the time of my last post but I did manage to go back to sleep for a couple of hours. Currently sat up in bed sipping my early morning coffee. Bliss. It's going to be a nice day, not too hot so perfect gardening weather. I am just going to get out there and enjoy the day.

Sitting here, practising gratitude. Despite all that has gone on this week I still have much to be grateful for and consider myself blessed by the gods. My life can still be good and I can still be happy. It's my choice and I choose happiness.

I had a blinding flash of revelation last night.

It occurred to me DIL has handed me a perfect weapon to use against her - not that I would stoop that low but I could, if necessary, use it as leverage to protect myself and possibly my son (blackmail is such a dirty word?).

She was foolish enough to put all her vitriol, threats and attempts at emotional blackmail in writing. Silly girl. Does she not realise what's she's done. All I have to do is post them on social media and that's her discredited, her career would be in ruins.

Of course I would never do such a thing. But......if I did want to fight dirty to protect my son then she's handed me the ammunition. She thought she was invincible but like all who practise hubris, she would be the architect of her own nemesis. I could deliver it at any time of my choosing, if I felt so inclined.

Silly, foolish girl. Just goes to show that she's not nearly as smart as she likes to think she is. So much for her Phd. Not an ounce of common sense. As I said in an earlier post, her complacency will ultimately be her undoing. She will overplay her hand at some point. Karma always repays.

Am I concerned that she might post stuff about me......tbh she probably already has. ?. Not that I give a fig. She can post what she likes about me on social media......I am retired and financially independent, so I don't have to worry about my media profile - not that I have one. The people who know me and care about me know the truth. I am not interested in the opinion of strangers. It's easy enough to avoid internet Trolls.

Many of our young people are in thrall to social media. They cannot tear themselves away. They post the minutiae of their every days lives, lapping up the likes to feed their egos. Like Narcissus, gazing into the pool of reflected glory, they bask in their "fame", boasting about how many follows they have. They will often use social media to try and discredit anyone who upsets them.

Well there's a saying isn't there....."He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword". ?.

Well it's been quite a week. All of this blew up last Saturday and I think I have just about felt every feeling there is. Talk about emotional roller coaster. I feel like I have turned full circle now, back to my usual sanguine self. A week older, a little wiser.

I dare say that I could have maintained the status quo a little longer by cowering and not standing up for myself. However, I am under no illusion that I would only have been postponing the inevitable. At some point there had to be a day of reckoning. As painful as it's been I am glad it's done. I've licked my wounds and the healing has begun. I'm going to be ok.

As for the future?? Que Sera.

Thanks Onward

You are right. There's nothing more either my DS2 and I can do, except as you say, just love him and be there for him.

And hope that one day this nightmare will end.

In the meantime I will endeavour to put it all behind me and live the best life I can. In the immediate future I am just going to make the most of what's left of the summer - concentrate on getting my garden straight and finishing off some outside jobs. Just keep busy and try not to think too much.

Glad you liked the roar Smileless

Derbyshirelass so sorry to hear that DS2 thinks his brother's phone is being controlled by his wife. My ES is incredibly controlling, like his father (who I am not with anymore) and I know he also controls my Dil's phone like that. When she "blocked" me I think maybe he did it?

It's very hard, but try to be there for him without saying too much. Tell him you love him no matter what. He will be in a very awkward position because if he doesn't do what she wants he will lose his kids too. I hope it doesn't go as badly as you fear.

Hi Smileless. Thank you and thank for starting the estrangement thread. Both threads have given us a safe place to unburden our hearts and let off steam and hopefully find comfort and support.

You are right - I think people who have been estranged by their families often feel shame and embarrassment. But it's not our shame, it's theirs. They are the ones who are behaving badly and treating us shamefully.

Not matter what sins we may be have committed, what mistakes we have made, none of us deserves to be treated this, especially our poor grandchildren. They are the real victims here, innocent and blameless. Their blind, selfish, irresponsible parents treat them as pawns. That is what is making my blood boil. I can take care of myself, as could my son if he stood up to her, but it's the little ones who will ultimately pay the price.

I can understand that my son believes he can't make a stand because she will probably use the children as a weapon. Despicable, wicked creature, she is beneath contempt. He knows she has the will and the resources to simply whisk them off to the other side of the world.......joint custody would be nigh on impossible. He's got himself into a pretty pass and there's nothing anyone else can do to help him unless he digs deep and finds the resolve to turn to his family for support. He has to find his way.

Yes I am angry...But it took me 5 years to get there, so you did well to realise your anger after 2 years. From the day she got the ring on her finger, 5.1/2 years ago she has been scheming and plotting. I have watched what was happening and damn near bitten my tongue right off. I have kept quiet, smiled and acquiesced to her increasingly insane and unreasonable demands purely to keep the peace. But there comes a tipping point.....and I reached it last Sunday.

I have been on a slow burn for years. My husband would have warned her.....he didn't call me Vesuvius for nothing. ?. I am easy going to a fault and I will do just about anything to avoid confrontation and arguments but we all have our limits don't we. We can be pushed beyond endurance. I am slow to anger but I also slow to come down again. If she thinks she can lie low and it will all blow over and that all she has to do is bide her time and then crook her little finger and I will go running back like a whipped dog then she is living in a fools paradise. She's had her chance with me (hundreds of them) but she has finally blown it. No going back now.

My DS1 is also easy going to a fault, he will forgive and forgive but I'm pretty sure one day he will snap, even if she almost destroys him. I believe he is much stronger and more resilient than either she or even he realises. He has just never been tested before. He's led a charmed life till now and this is his first real taste of adversity. But I believe he is made up of stern stuff, despite his gentleness.

I am pretty certain that she will find that when he does finally wake up and realises he's been duped he will be implacable.

There are people who live with abuse like this for decades. I just hope he sees the light one of these fine days. What concerns me is just how long it will take and how bad the abuse will get.

Hey ho....it's just a waiting game now. Will I keep my son and grandchildren. Will they be allowed to stay in contact. I very much doubt it. She might allow it for a little while to give a semblance that she is trying to be fair and reasonable but she will soon find a way to put a stop to any visits. She will dream up some trumped up excuse.

Yes I will lose out and will miss my son and grandchildren more than I can say but I will be damned if I kowtow to her again.

Some more shocking revelations today. Although I am not in the least surprised.....

My DS2 came round, so I showed him the texts and told him the full story. He wasn't even remotely surprised. DS2 then told me that he believes DIL commandeers DS1s phone because when he texts his brother, he can tell that she pretends to be him and texts him back as DS1.

So she is well and truly controlling him, even monitoring his phone, presumably also his computer, emails etc. Before I found out I did actually send DS1 a text. It remains to be seen whether he will actually clap eyes on it.

This is all deeply worrying, a clear sign that her controlling behaviour is escalating and that there could well be some serious emotional abuse going on.

I feel helpless. I can protect myself, my DS2 can protect himself and his partner, but poor DS1 appears to be at her mercy. God only knows what is going on behind closed doors.

I've caught up with all of the fabulous posts over the last few days. What a wonderful, supportive and inspiring bunch of ladies you are. This is what the subject of estrangement needs, the courage of those who are able to share their stories so this subject isn't hidden away by shame and/or guilt, but openly discussed.

Sadly Allsorts narcissists always have to have a victim and as has been said, when for whatever reason a victim is lost, another is found. They are abusers and as such, need to alienate their victim which ultimately ends up with estrangement for their victim's family. So, we end up being their victim too.

Oh wow DerbyshireLass your post of 8th Aug. @ 20.00 blew me away. I'd love to be able to shake you by the hand for calling her out. She'd never have expected that especially as she has so much control of your son and of course the children.

"At first I was dreadfully upset, but now I'm just furious". It took me nearly two years to realise that what I needed was to be angry. Anger can be a good thing especially if it gets us out of bed every morning, determined to survive despite wishing we could just curl up into a ball and die.

I'm glad you've had that text from your son and that you're 'on your guard'. FWIW I agree with your stance regarding your d.i.l. "She is banished .... from my home and my life. No more drama".

She doesn't have to have anything to do with you does she, I just hope that your son will realise that he has a right to have a relationship with his mum, and his children have a right to have a relationship with their GM.

Hilltop third party influence in estrangement is often derided despite being a major contributing factor. Your son's behaviour following the death of your DH, his father is truly shocking.

I'm sorry for your loss. For you, Whiff and others who don't have their loving husband's support, estrangement is even harder to cope with.

OnwardandUpward what a great post I had a good roar as soon as I'd read it.

Going not flung.........?

I had a very good day thanks. Did quite bit of gardening, went for a little walk.

Onwards and Upwards - How awful for you but at least you now know the truth and what you are up against . I hope that your son wakes up one day and realises what he has been sucked into.

So difficult for you all.

All quiet here, no more phone calls or texts. Suits me.

DS2 is coming tomorrow. I am going to show him the texts, (some of them are about him too). I have shielded him from DILs worst excesses in the past but I think he now needs to know the full extent of what she's been up to. Although, as I mentioned previously, he's pretty much got her sussed anyway, so doubt it will come as any great surprise.

DIL has upset DS2s partner several times. They already maintain a healthy distance from DS1 and DIL which is such a shame because DS2 would definitely be the fun uncle if he got half a chance. But they are doing the right thing, protecting themselves and not getting embroiled.

It's the grandchildren who are flung to suffer the most though. Their maternal grandparents, aunts and uncles, and extended family live half way across the world. If DIL stops the children seeing me and DS2 they will have no one else in their lives. No grandmother, no uncle. I can cope with that as can DS2 but it strikes me as wicked thing to do to your own children.

I've been doing a lot of thinking and have decided to make some pretty radical changes in my life. I had already planned to sell my house and downsize in around 5 years time but I am thinking that I might now just bring the timescales forward. I like my home, especially the garden which the children love to play in and there is loads of space for them to have sleepovers.

However both the house and garden are pretty high maintenance and I not getting any younger. If I am denied access to my grandchildren then why bother. Why not just downsize sooner and make things easier for myself. Get something smaller, easier to maintain, cheaper to run and free up some equity whilst Im at it.

I won't make any rash decisions but it's definitely something to think about,

Yes that's a good plan Derbyshirelass ! Hope you have a good day. I am still working so at least I have that to keep busy.

I do now know what has caused my son's estrangement. It isn't my Dil, it is a cult. I am not going to say too much here- but it explains the anti mask, anti vaccine, conspiracy theory stuff, calling evil good and good evil, cutting themselves off from all family. I now know where it is coming from. If anyone wants an explanation and we have already chatted on here I will share in a PM.