Understanding estrangement

Hi everyone.

Just a quick update. I slept much better and whilst I still feel a bit shaky I'm doing ok. Still struggling to eat but maybe some good will come out of it. I might lose a bit of weight, every cloud has a silver lining.?

I have wasted the last 3 days fretting and worrying over the situation.......time I will never get back. Enough. Time to get on with trying to live my best life.

It's a nice sunny day, going to get out there and enjoy it. It will be winter before we know it so need to make the best of days like these.

Thanks for everything my lovely new friends. I will keep you posted if there are any further developments but for now I'm just going to keep my head down and concentrate on me for a change.

Hope you are all ok. Take care and stay well.

OnwardandUpward

Derbyshire Lass, I'm so glad for you!
Hooray for the roaring!

Time to unleash our inner Lionesses. ?

Thanks Madgran. Yes a salutary warning not to build my hopes up. The matter is not done yet. You are so right with your assessment of what could happen but I can assure you I won't be riding any emotional roller coasters. Not any more.

And......I AM going to be very careful. I am not going to end up having a stroke or heart attack over some silly girl.

I ended up having a pretty good day. A neighbour asked me how I was. I said I was fine, He said "No you're not, talk to me". So I told him the whole sorry saga and he confided that he and his partner were also having similar issues.

Then my friend came and she told me the same......she too was having problems with her DIL, on the verge of estrangement. My friend from the other evening has been estranged from her son for years.

What is going on??? All of a sudden I'm surrounded with grieving parents who have either been estranged from their children and grandchildren or who are desperately trying to hang on and repair bridges.

What is happening.......why do todays younger parents do this. Why are they using their own children as weapons. What kind of an example is that, what a dreadful precedent to set. How is it teaching their children the importance of love and the value of relationships. When their children grow up with the lesson that people are expendable will they then be surprised when the same thing happens to them......when their children turn on them in years to come. Looks like there is going to be an awful lot of bad Karma out there.

Do these silly selfish creatures not realise they are sowing the seeds of their own nemesis.

It was so good to talk it out today, with both my neighbour and my friend, we shed a few tears and had a few laughs. Thank God we can choose our friends. I am so grateful that I am surrounded by such love, kindness and support. Both in RL and on here too.

I feel so much better this evening, my heart has stopped hammering in my chest and my tummy has stopped doing somersaults. I even managed to scoff steak, mushrooms and salad for my dinner. First decent meal I've had in days.

I am now going to light a candle and raise a glass to commemorate my husband. See if I can find a nice film to watch. Hopefully I will sleep well tonight.

I know my situation is still in the balance. I have no idea where we go from here. I have told DIL I will not be bullied and emotional blackmail won't work with me. I've told her if she wishes to estrange me then do it. The ball is in her court.

But whatever she decides, my decision is made and it is absolutely final .....I am done playing her games. If she denies me my son and grandchildren she will rue the day. I am not a vengeful person but once I'm crossed that's it, there's no going back. This lady is not for turning and she is not to be trifled with.

My son knows this. He knows I don't suffer fools and that I am much stronger than I appear to be. I think I've shocked him enough to wake him from his slumber and inertia. I am now pretty sure he has finally realised just how high the stakes are in this sick game of cat and mouse but will he be able to stand up to her or will he just cave in. Only time will tell.

On Friday he looked utterly defeated, a broken man but today I did catch a tiny glimpse of that old sparkiness. Is there still a vestige of pride and self respect in there.? Where there's life there's hope. I can only pray that he can dig deep and find the inner strength and resolve he so badly needs.

Whatever the outcome I will now be putting my needs first. I have wasted 5 years of my life trying to form a good relationship with my DIL. What a complete and utter waste of time.

I'm 70 - realistically how long have I got left. Not enough time to waste being a slave to DILs whims and demands, that's for sure. My enslavement could last for years, for what remains of my life and that is just not acceptable.

What a turnaround in my attitude in just a couple of days......I too have had my wake up call. I've gone from snivelling coward to Warrior Woman. Let's hope that if I can do it, then my son can also find some courage.

How appropriate that today is Lion Day. ??

Derbyshire Lass, I'm so glad for you!
Hooray for the roaring!

Derbyshirelass I am glad for your sakethat your son contacted you and was chatty. I hope it leads to better times for you both and that he finds a way to manage the situation. However I fear for you emotionally, that you might find he puts you on a rollercoaster of off/on chattiness because of pressure from his partner and you will never know where you stand. I truly hope that doesn't happen but please be careful xx

I'm roaring with you DerbyshireLass. Glad your son text. But don't let your guard down.

You are right son's need their dads unfortunately my husband died when our son was 16 and our daughter 20. But they had my dad for 3 years then he died ,but they still have my brother. But my son has cut ties with all our side of the family.

Luckily his is a good father and my daughter in law is a good mother. They are just crap at being a son and daughter in law.

The really stupid thing is I want him to see what I have done in my garden. He's like his dad a very good gardener. Grows his own veg and fruit.

But it's not to be. So made my peace with that. Sun's just come out while the soil is wet need to dig out a few plants that are finished .

And you are not being harsh you are being sensible. ☺️

Oh yes......here me rooaaarrrr!!!!!

Our posts crossed Whiff.

I don't know. I asked my friend yesterday - she is estranged too. I asked if it was our fault, have we spoiled them. Why do we have sons who have allowed themselves to become victims.

That's why I wish my husband was here because he could have done the man to man stuff. I am sure he would have handled it all so much better than me. He could have guided my son and his mere presence would have been enough to curb her worst excesses. Sons need fathers, even when they are fathers themselves. They need the wisdom that comes from experience. I can offer my sons my perspective and try to guide them but I cannot give them the male world view and the support that only a father can give.

Well, I am glad I accepted my sons olive branch. He has just sent me the most delightful, charming and chatty texts. Much more like his old self. He hasn't been that chatty in years.

I think he too has been reflecting on what has happened. It would seem he is determined to keep me in his life. Dont know how he will manage it in the long term but it's nice to know it's what he wants and he's making the effort. At least he is trying. Perhaps I have shaken him out of his apathy at last.

I don't wish to labour the point but we are a small family, his brother and I are all he has left. Maybe he has finally realised that if he loses us he will be left with nothing.

Who knows. Maybe I did the right thing after all and he's had the wake up call he needed. Whatever happens next I will be setting boundaries, I will never allow her back. Any relationship with her will be purely at arms length. She will not set foot under my roof again, not unless there is a dramatic and permanent change in her attitude and the way she treats me.

I don't need her to love me or even like me but I think I deserve courtesy, consideration and respect. Otherwise it's no go.

The ball is in her court. I will not back down.

Gosh I do sound harsh but I think it's time I stepped up and set some boundaries.

How I rabbit on.?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202108/medium-43090-courage.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202108/medium-820390-therapy.jpeg

Aww sending hugs to you all.

Today is World Lion Day so let's roar and be fierce in guarding our boundaries and our right to a happy, peaceful and enjoyable life , to have people around us who are kind and peaceful (or to have the peace of absolutely no one toxic, if no one kind is available) Alone is better than toxic.

Here's to us powerful women (and we are) because that's why toxic people cannot stand us.

Just resting, listening to motivational podcasts, feeling much calmer. The hammering in my chest has finally subsided.

Have just received a text from my son, an olive branch. I am happy to graciously accept it, at least the door is still open. That's all I want,

I have been mulling over how best to tackle DIL when she next crawls out of the woodwork. She will try and wriggle back because that is what she does, it's what all narks do. They try to reel you in again, like a cat playing a mouse.

Well this mouse has roared and she won't be allowed back again. Just need to figure a way of closing it down permanently without closing the door to my son.

Why does life have to be so complicated. At the age of 70 havent I earned the right to a peaceful, stress free retirement.

After my narcissistic father died I thought I was free of all this nonsense. Little did I imagine there's was a narc DIL waiting in the wings. ??.

She asked me to reflect and I have. My answer is still the same - she is banished......from my home and my life. No more drama.

My friend is coming this afternoon. It's a nice morning so after breakfast I am going to go for a walk and then potter in the garden, cut the grass, enjoy the fine weather.

But before that I'm just going to do a few easy yoga stretches. Time to start healing my body.

DerbyshireLass your last 3 paragraphs are exactly how I felt.

Smiles helped so much when she answered my first PM last year. Took me three attempts to get my story out as I cried that much writing it. Words can never express how wonderful a woman she is. Because of her I was able to pour my heart out on the thread under this one. The one she started. When it happened to her and her husband all those years ago.

I know the hurt will always be their but that's something I am learning to live with. If I was an awful mother, mother in law and grandmother as my son and daughter in law make out I am. Why is it my daughter,son in law and grandson's love and care for me. We brought our children up the same . Since my husband died I have always treated both families the same.

I know the fault is not with me but my son and daughter in law's .

My son knows what a bad mom, mother in law and grandmother is he knew my husband's mom. And knew how she treated us before and after my husband's death. He also knows what his grandfather was like.

He knows what good in law's,parents and grandparents are like as he knew my parents.

Do not doubt yourself you did the right thing. Take comfort from your friend today. And live the life you want . Be the person you want to be the person your husband loved and adored above all others.

Good Morning Whiff.

Thanks. I'll do my best today. I'm glad my friend is coming. I am usually self reliant but I do think I will benefit from company today. I think I need to reach out and have more contact with friends.

I've not had much sleep, don't feel too good at all this morning. I just need to try relax otherwise I am going to make myself ill.

You're right, what ifs are pointless, what's done is done.

Last night I started having doubts about the way I tried to defend myself and for telling my son about the texts. It was the first time I have told him. I have kept it all to myself till now.

I did wonder if I'd done the right thing but then I thought ok maybe I could have kept quiet, ignored her, tried to carry on as if nothing had happened but I feel certain it would have all gone pear shaped again further down the line. How many more months or years would I have had to endure.

I think I have simply pre-empted an estrangement by being proactive and not just sitting back and waiting for it to happen. I know deep down I had to take some control back in my own life and stand up to her. It was like being on a roller coaster ride and I never did like roller coasters. So I got off.

But God it is hard. I am shaking, I feel sick. I think, I hope, it's just shock and my body's delayed reaction. I hope I can get my calm back soon.

I'm feeling scared and sick. It's just horrible. Hopefully it will feel less raw with time and I will adapt to living with estrangement. Hopefully I have got out in time and I will start to feel physically better soon.

Last thing I need is a stroke or a heart attack.

DerbyshireLass have the best day you can with your friend. If you want to sob your heart out in your friends arms do it. Don't try and to be brave it will only make it worse. Been there done that. You aren't just grieving for your husband but the son you knew and loved. I and many here know that pain.

Like you I know if my husband was alive this would never have happened. He never stood up for me against his parents but he was my rock and knight the rest of the time .

Don't go down the what ifs road . What's done is done. Today is the start of a new chapter for you . My husband said live the best life you can. You must do that to.

Take care and my thoughts are with you today. ?

Thanks Whiff..

You are so right. If my husband were here right now he would be holding me close, comforting me and probably saying something daft to make me laugh.

But tbh I do believe that if he were alive then none of this would be happening anyway. She simply wouldn't dare. And if she had, he would have stood up for me and set her straight. He was a mild mannered gentle man but would have fought like a lion for me.

I do think I have made a rod for my own back. For far too long (5 years) I have indulged her, made excuses for her, forgiven her. My own silly fault. I kept giving in for the sake of peace and harmony. I let it happen.

But we can't turn back the clock, I accept my culpability in all this but no matter what, this worm has finally turned. I should have walked away earlier but I kept hoping it would work out. A salutary lesson there,.

I have shed a few more tears tonight. I have deliberately not gone to bed too early so hopefully I will be able to get some sleep.

Up until now I have kept all this a secret but today I have "come out", as it were, to some of my RL friends and they have been wonderful. They have rallied round and shown love and support. One of them is coming round tomorrow. She has just texted me to say she is leaving her mobile switched on so I can call her, even in the middle of the night if I need her.

Now that is what I call love.

Thank God for my friends both in RL and my new friends on this thread. I'm so grateful for your kindness.

DerbyshireLass you are entitled to be me me. Waffle all you like I do. You are grieving for your husband and now the estrangement is another form of grief. And it hard dealing with both at the same time.

When the other half of you dies you are never whole again. 17.5 years and I still feel half is me is missing. Still only sleep on my side of the bed. Still hate the empty bed. When my husband died I lost my everything. The only person in the whole world who knew me inside and out. But I am lucky I had him .

Going through estrangement without the one person you want and need is hard. Especially at night when you want to cry and be held until you fall asleep. You put your hand out for the love of your life and he's not there.

Never apologise for how you feel. It's good we all have a safe place to talk about our feelings and know that others understand.

I hope you have a good night's sleep.

Well I've got through the day without any more tears, although my eyes feel so sore and gritty from all the tears I've shed over the last few days. I have even managed to eat something, only a ready meal macaroni cheese, just bunged it in the microwave. It slipped down easily enough even though my stomach is still doing somersaults and food is the last thing I want. But I must eat or I will be ill.

Maybe some good will come out of this, maybe I will lose some weight. ?

Managed to drag myself round Aldi's, picked up some dark red roses to cheer myself up and in honour of my husband. Burgundy red was his favourite colour. The anniversary tomorrow.

I'm exhausted and I would love a nap right now. I've tried but it's just not happening. Hope the sleep fairy comes easily tonight. I'm soooo tired.

All in all not a bad day. Better than I'd hoped for. All quiet on the western front, no more texts or phone calls, so far so good. No contact from son either but that's ok.

I think they both think that if they leave me to stew and in DILS words "reflect for a while" then it will all blow over and she can just dance back into my life as if nothing happened. Thats what she's done in the past.

Well sorry, not this time, the relationship between DILand I, such as it was is, now well and truly dead. She killed it. All that remains to be seen is what my son will do. But I've decided that because I love him I am just going to let him go.

He's not the man he was. My lovely sunny natured, happy go lucky chappy has gone. In his place is an anxious and sometimes angry man, jut a shadow of his former self. So realistically I've already lost him anyway. The man in his place is practically a stranger to me. I hardly recognise him.

Sorry for the waffle.....sorry it's all a bit me, me, me......just thinking aloud.

It helps.

Allsorts......that's the worst bit, the loss of trust. Even if this breach can be mended I would never be able to rest easy. I would always be waiting for the next episode. And I'm just not prepared to waste what's left of my life, treading on eggshells living in fear and making myself ill.

My friend rang me this morning to see how I was. I did sob down the phone to her last night. I thank my lucky stars I have kind supportive friends.

"We need to love our families, but choose our friends"

So sad, Hilltop. A double whammy for you. As if losing your husband wasn't enough, for your son and DIL to add further to your pain at such a time is unforgivable. So cruel.

You must feel bereft. But, you did your duty in informing your son of his fathers impending death. You did the right thing, even if it brought you nothing but further pain. Your conscience is clear, so maybe it's just best if you step away again. Protect yourself and heal.

The ball is in his court.

My husband died earlier this year. I did not want to contact my son but after discussing it with my daughter l decided l would so that l could not be put in the wrong about it later,
So while my husband was dying l sent a text asking if there was anything my son wanted me to say to his father. I immediately got a nice text back.
Later on l received a card supposedly from both of them. I think he then realised he had overstepped the mark from DIL point of view (l don't think she would have known about the card) and sent a very short, terse message to me and that is the end of it again.
I wish l hadn't had to contact him and l won't need to again as l was doing my best to cope with the estrangement before and it brought it all back.
So l lost them both too

Know how you feel Derbyshirelass and how difficult the anniversary of your husband death will be, focus if you can on what you had, not easy, but that’s what I do. So sorry you and Hilltop have to experience the destructive wrath of a narcissist. You have to walk away for your sanity, but they do pull the wool over their partners eyes, it appears they end up blaming the victim. You can never trust them again,?

Good morning everyone,

What a lovely, kind and supportive bunch you are. I am so grateful for your support at this time,

Whiff you are inspirational, so full of warmth, love and generosity of spirit. Such wise words of comfort and such good counsel.

I feel ok, a little frail and shaky but I slept surprisingly well. I didnt think I would, but maybe the glass of wine helped. ?

I am not going to dwell on the last few days, there's no point on raking over it all. It would be like picking a scab and not allowing the wound to heal.

To keep with the medical analogy, I have lanced the boil, let the poison out and now it's time to heal.

I am just going to take a little time, get through the anniversary (tomorrow) then take it from there. Time for some self care, rest, gentle exercise, healthy food. Keep myself to myself for a few days, then when I'm ready, I will start seeing friends again and getting out and about.

I am not going to sit around waiting for my son to decide whether or not he wants to be a part of my life. If he does then that would be wonderful, if not well I will manage without him well enough.

For the last few years I do feel that I have been expected to be grateful for the metaphorical crumbs from their table. I have been expected to jump at the chance of seeing them, changing my plans to fit in with their timetable. It often felt that I have been a "duty visit", especially DIL who never made me feel truly welcome when I visited them and who often behaved like a sulky teenager when she visited my home, glued to her mobile.

Thank goodness I am free of all that now.

When my husband died, the worst that could happen did happen. When he died he took a piece of me away with him and I know I will never be truly whole again, I feel that there is a part of my heart that is now frozen. So whilst losing my son will be painful it can never match the anguish of losing my husband.

I feel no malice and do not bear a grudge and I will not allow hate and bitterness into heart. I will try to find joy and contentment. I will face the future with courage and fortitude.

I am stronger than many people think, I am certainly not the pushover that my DIL imagines me to be. I will be ok, I just need a little time to "regroup" and then I will start to build myself a new life. It's what my husband would want. I will do it for him as well as for me.

One step at a time.

Bless us all. ❤️

DerbyshireLass I am sorry for all the pain you have been through and going through. And the pain yet to come. But at least it's happened. As you said you could see it coming but it hasn't made it any easier.

My daughter in law sent me a text on what's app open forum after I had that letter and unopened presents August last year. Full of accusations but acting as if she wanted to as she said find a way to make our relationship work. I showed my daughter and said don't answer it as anyone could read what I wrote. But I had no intention of answering as it's my son I wanted to speak to. So I got my daughter to block her on my phone.

I know full well what she was doing . Painting me the villain and her the poor defensless daughter in law having to protect her children against this cruel and vile grandmother.

Block her on your phone. So she can't hurt you anymore.

As I have said if my son wants to see me he can but he will have to come here and face me.

You saying it makes you feel ill is exactly how I felt. As you are still grieving for your husband this hurts even more. And now like me and others here you are grieving for the lose of your son and grandchildren.

It's hard to think that the son you and your husband made and love unconditionally could love someone so evil. It's so sad . But it's done now and as hard as it is you need to heal and look after yourself.

Tell your other son what has happened and take comfort in his love for you.

As I said my son not only dumped me but all his side of the family. You may find your son will do the same as your daughter in law wants him to herself.

Know you are not alone. Smiles and everyone else has helped me and still helping. You have friends and support from people who know exactly what you are going through and you have a safe place to say whatever you want and know we will never judge or be cruel to you .

Please take care of yourself. It's time to put yourself first. I talk out loud to my husband everyday and have done since he died. It has helped me. Talk to your husband and hopefully it to will help.

Wish I could just give you a hug and shoulder to cry on . So it will have to be a virtual one. ?

Yes, it does seem that there are an awful lot of us. So sorry!
Im seeing that its NOT just me in a toxic sandwich but several of us have narc parents AND kids or DiL.

??. I have just had a big glass of wine.

Yes, it does seem that there are an awful lot of us.

I don't know why people are like this.......it's beyond me. I try to be charitable and view them as damaged, insecure lost souls but the fact remains they cause irreparable devastation.

I had suffered from narcissistic abuse from my father. I never dreamt it could happen again. Perhaps I must have "easy prey" tattooed on my forehead. One thing for sure.....I will NOT be a victim. I will not be her creature. I have far too much self respect for that.

Its entirely my choice to walk away. I know some might find it a strange thing to do because of the risk of losing my son and the children. But I know if I allow her back it will only be a question of time before it all starts up again. I am not prepared to put up with years of abuse, walking on eggshells, never knowing when she will threaten me again.

The grandchildren are just 9 months, and 3 years. If I am going to lose them then I would rather it happen now. It will be painful but I think it would be much worse in say 5 years time.

I would rather just get it over with.

Thanks for the hugs and support.

I had never come across anyone like this before. Why do people behave like this and ruin everything. You will be the strong one by not replying and you know where you are now. There seems to be so many of us in this situation and it surprises me. But take some deep breaths or a big glass of wine and take time out. Sending you hugs.