Understanding estrangement

OnwardandUpward
So much of what you say resonates with me. I too withdrew from my parents, from the girl who fell over herself trying to please, to the girl who hardly said a word. Like yours, they either didn’t notice, or decided not to mention it, I don’t know which.
If I’m angry, I’m angry with myself, I shouldn’t have let it drag on for so long, when I look back, at how hard I tried, and got nothing back, it makes me feel that I would have been much better off just walking away years before.
Whiff and Derbyshirelass, how sad for you, I’m interested in what your grandchildren have been told, are your sons intending to airbrush you out of their lives? Or will they rewrite history to make you the bad guy?

I too am just waiting for the axe to fall.

I can see estrangement with my DS on the horizon. I'm afraid it's a classic case of a narcissistic DIL doing her utmost to destroy the family.

Yesterday was truly dreadful and I am not sure how much more I can take. For two pins I would just walk away but like so many of us I am trying to keep things going for the sake of my son and the grandchildren.

I can't help but feel it's a futile exercise and that's its only a question of time. Reading this thread and a few other websites has helped though and I feel prepared for the worst.

Like Whiff I too am a widow, living in my own, so an estrangement would hit me hard. But like Whiff I too feel that my heart was broken when my husband died, and that whilst an estrangement with my son would cause me great pain and anguish, my heart would not break again, rather it would bend.

I feel desperately sorry for my son but I can't help him until the scales fall from his eyes and he sees her in her true colours. My second son soon saw through her and she hates him for this. She can't bear that she can't control him or manipulate him so she is deliberately trying to break up two brothers who have always been close.

She is doing her utmost to destroy us.

What she doesn't realise is that my father was a narcissist too, so I am well versed in their tactics. I learned long ago narcissists have no self awareness and they will never change, they are sociopaths who cannot amend their behaviour. It's not their fault but the fact remains they cause havoc and leave nothing but a trail of devastation in their wake.

Watching a relationship die, I think sometimes people don't realise it is dying, they only know there is a problem. They struggle through different strategies, sometimes find they can't use their usual way of dealing with problems, like talking things through because the other party won't engage. Then they make choices about how they respond, especially if grandchildren are involved. And then they hit their "red line" and wait with baited breath to see what will happen.

Just hard really for everyone in this estrangement maelstrom!

I don't know whether it would have been worse seeing the estrangement coming with my son or it happening out of the blue like it did.

The only comparison I have is we knew from my husband's diagnosis of cancer he wouldn't live 5 years. It was like living with the sword of Damocles hanging over us. When it dropped and we were told it was terminal and he would receive palliative care it was an awful shock. I remember screaming and running from the room and sobbing in the arms of the nurse before I could go back to my husband and the consultant .

He was in hospital for a week end of January . He had his last birthday in hospital and told he had 5 weeks to live. He came home the next day and died 2 days later. We knew when he was home we only had days not weeks.

It was a shock the estrangement coming out of the blue with my son but thinking about for me as hard has it been I am glad it happened that way . It would have been so much harder for me watching the relationship die as I watched my husband die.

Sara, I was always a people pleaser. If I tried to do anything at all for myself they would have a go at me calling me selfish etc. I have only realised since having therapy and going LC that it's not at all selfish to do self care or even enjoy yourself sometimes! I've also put them before my husband, in the past. They know something has changed and the old me has gone, but they don't bring it up and nor do I. The dynamic has changed because I get more distant if they are abusive and that doesn't serve lonely people well. I'm glad for you and your husband that you have each other.

Yes it's true, we do love them no matter what Smileless. I did know deep down it wasn't my fault because I don't see what else I could have done (he was trying to control my health choices) It was not me who threatened or withdrew love or blocked them- they did that and all because I didn't do what they tried to tell me. They also used the GC as a weapon and I hate it when people use kids as a weapon. It never ends well for anyone. It's deeply unfair on the kids as well as the adults. Your son sounds like a coward Smileless but there could be another possibility? (What if your DiL blocked your number so it looked as if you didn't wish your son a Happy Birthday?) It's definitely a possibility that she was behind it all and he believed whatever she said. Some people are very divisive, sadly.

Big hugs to all

Welcome to this estrangement forum Lanoylanoy. It's such a relief isn't it to know that others are facing the same heartache and confusion and that you're not the only one.

I hope you'll find sharing with us here and seeing how we manage to somehow get on with our lives will enable you to do the same.

I've often pondered about whether being estranged out of the blue as you were Whiff and we were too is harder than it coming over a period of time. Is that sudden death of the relationship more difficult to come to terms with then witnessing the slow death of the relationship, perhaps seeing it coming and knowing there's nothing you an do about it. I still don't know.

I agree Sara Whiff's son's behaviour is indeed strange, as was our ES's. The last time we saw him was when he came to pick up our 8 month old GS who'd spent a couple of hours with us.

We were going on holiday for 3 weeks. He said he hoped we'd have a good time and a safe journey. 3 days after we returned it was his birthday so I did what I'd always done and 'phoned him. There was a recorded message saying 'the person you are calling is no longer accepting calls from this number'.

It's good to have estranging adult children sharing their experiences and feelings on this subject as there are many similarities, even though our experiences appear on the surface to be very different.

As parents, we love our children no matter what and when they estrange us it's an automatic reaction to think it's our fault rather than theirs. For EP's and EAC how much easier it would be if we could turn that love off, so we no longer hope for something that can never be.

OnwardandUpward
You are right, we love our parents no matter what, we crave their love and if it’s withheld we automatically think it’s our fault.
I spent so many years trying to make her love me, well into my thirties before I saw things as they really were, and in my forties when I eventually had enough.
My regret really is that I didn’t do it twenty years before, because of my guilt, and shame I always went out of my way to try and redeem myself, sometimes putting them before my ever patient husband, and making changes to our plans to make it better for them.
What on earth was I trying to prove?
Even then, there was absolutely no relationship between us.

As kids we love our parents no matter what but when they fail to protect us or even abuse us, I think there's something inside that thinks " I deserved it" It can take years (and much therapy) to learn, no you didn't deserve it. Also, its not even about you. It was never about you. Its about them (and their problems)

You were a loveable child. They had issues that made them unable to protect, nurture, guide and love. I find it freeing to realize that children are sweet, innocent and loveable. Anyone who doesn't treat a child right is the problem

I can understand you walking away. We all have our limits. I have distance on my side, which allows me to be LC. You're not horrible (though you may have been told you are- I was) Looking after yourself means different things to different people and you have to do what you have to do. It may be when you heal and get strategies to stick up for yourself that you feel more able to be in contact with them. Only time will tell.

Don't worry onward, I am very open about it. Resentful at times, but for the most part I have made peace with my childhood.

I know this sounds horrible of me, but they are both reaping what they have sown. My mothers with no one and my dad dependent on my mother. Since the kids are gone, she has turned her toxicity on to him. He is living what I lived with my while life. A tiny part of me thinks, finally getting what they deserve. I am not proud of that part of me, but it is a human trait I suppose.

They have created what they have and I can not and am not responsible for saving them. I tried for years to make them into something they aren't, or make myself into whatever they would love. When I cut her off from my kids, it was not a manipulation or a punishment. It was a finality that was a result of their decisions and behaviors.

The whole scenario, as is all estrangement, is just sad.

So sorry to hear how your son was so nasty, Whiff. If it's any help at all his behaviour does sound like projection. I mean, him calling you vindictive and nasty when he was being vindictive and nasty!
If you google "Psychological projection" you might agree?

I'm pretty sure this is how my son acts as well. He even called me a narcissist and I'm pretty sure I'm not one even though I probably have traits seeing as my parents seem to have it.

It was out of the blue. Once I moved here he came every week with my 2 grandson's had lunch and was usually here 4hrs. He did a few little DIY things. I moved here 2yrs this month. Last time I saw my daughter in law was boxing day 2019.

He told me February last year they where expecting again. He used to say how excited the boys got when they realised they where coming here. Last time I saw them was March last year because of Covid but still had texts,phone call, photos and videos of the boys. Got a lovely video of an Easter egg hunt they did for the boys in the garden. Last photo was 17th April. Then he came for my birthday. And the rest as above.

Before that they visited as often as they could and I came up here. I used to live 100+ miles away. After my husband died I had both my parents and mother in law to look after. Mom was the last to die in 2017.

Both my children where brought up the same. My daughter also had an email. He has nothing to with our side of the family. My brother thinks my daughter in law is jealous that my grandson loved being here and how close I was with my son.

Luckily my daughter and son in law said they will never lose them. And tell me how much they love me and my grandson's adore me. My daughter and daughter in law never got on.

I was so happy when he met his future wife a year after his dad died. He was my happy boy again. I was so glad she made him happy and grew to love her. They have been together 17 years married 6 this year.

freedomfromthepast

"Is your Dad an enabler? Because someone always has to enable this for the behaviour to be able to continue."

Yes he is. Plus he has an air of his own toxicity. I remember my first day in my new career when I was in my early 20's. I was hired on the same place he worked (my mom worked there too). He stopped me going to my first shift and instead of telling me to have a good day he told me that he worked hard to build a reputation there and I better not mess it up. He then would come to work each day and work the area I was working that day in order to try and catch me messing up. Sadly it was my mother who he should have been worried about. She stole money (Govt job) and almost got him fired. The only reason they didn't press charges on her is because he had a long career there and she was made to cash out her retirement account to pay it back.

For the most part, he stood back and allowed her abuse and didn't give a whit. As long as someone was cooking and cleaning up after him (always me) he was fine.

I have only 1 single memory from before age 4. The dentist. It was traumatic. I though ti was normal for most kids to not have many memories from childhood. I dont want to try and recover them. Like Smileless said, the brain is a complex thing and it has repressed those for a reason.

Hi, I'm sorry to even ask you that. I had typed it before I could even stop myself. You see, one of my parents is an enabler, so years later when they told me about what they other parent tried to do to me , all I could think of was the years of secrecy and gaslighting.

I'm so sorry. It just seems like the enablers are so weak and they don't stand up for us at all. Probably they only spill the beans in the end to act the victim. But they are not the victim. They as parents were responsible to protect, nurture and cherish us. Now we must love ourselves by doing what's best for ourselves. Hugs!

I don't want to recover my early memories either. They are repressed for a reason.

Whiff
That sounds really strange, why would he go and help you if he was planning sending such a horrible email.
The way you handled your husband’s cancer, I would think is how a lot of parents would handle it, out of kindness to the children, and respect for your husband.
As for your grandchildren, that’s so sad for you, has he ever shown signs of resenting you before? Or is this out of the blue?

Sara1954 last time my son spoke to me was on my birthday in April 2020 and I had a wonderful time. He talked putting some paving down to make the garden safer. I walk with a stick and have falls. That was the last time we spoke.

4 days later he sent the email called me vindictive and manipulative filled it with a pack of lies things that never happened. Called me a racist. Said I hide things about his dad's cancer. He was 13 when we had to tell him his dad won't live 5years and 16when he died. My husband didn't want either of our children to know how he felt or how much pain he was in. We did what all loving parents do that's protect our children. He said he didn't like me but he ended with the biggest lie of all that he loved me. And to give him time.

I foolishly thought it would be ok to send his and his second son's birthday presents and cards plus presents and card for my new grandson that was due in July plus money for my eldest grandson as I always give something to siblings when a new baby is born in August.
He sent everything back all unopened the day after their birthday with a letter again calling me vindictive and manipulative and didn't want my influence near him or his family and zero contact. He didn't even put to mom or even sign it. But it was his hand writing ,spelling mistakes and punctuation errors.

So I have never had any explanation only accusations. I will never contact him. If he wants to contact me he can but he will have to face me here at my home.

Whiff
What was his explanation for treating you so badly?

I think it is right to leave those memories. If someone has enough abusive behaviours towards you that you do remember clearly and you don't speak to them anyway then having more memories won't help will it. That's really helped me as I can let that go.

I admire all of you had had awful childhoods and still suffering the effects to this day. I know what my husband and dad went through.

You are more forgiving than me. I can never forgive my son of throwing me away as if I don't matter. If he had faced me and said I can't see you again. I would have been upset but if he was doing it to keep his family together I would have understood. But to paint me as this evil witch that has made his life hell. Is unforgivable.

He and my daughter had brilliant childhoods. After my husband died did everything I could to help them both in anyway . When my son asked for a loan I gave it to him even if I knew what he wanted it for would end in disaster and it did. But never interfered. He always paid me back as he knew I couldn't afford to give him money. Anyway both him and my daughter in law where working full time . My daughter doesn't know about the loans as it was between my son and me .

If I was a rotten mom,mother in law and grandmother then they way he broke with me would be understandable . But I am not. How he did was cowardly and cruel. And that is unforgivable. I would never have said he was a coward or cruel until that email and the following letter .

I still love him very much but don't hate him or my daughter in law. Don't want nor need hate in my life . I have to much good in my life for hate.

It must be difficult to have had a bad childhood, it obviously stays with you throughout your life. I just feel for anyone that grew up not feeling safe and loved.

Freedomfromthepast
I feel the same as you, no good can come from churning up a whole lot of memories.

"Is your Dad an enabler? Because someone always has to enable this for the behaviour to be able to continue."

Yes he is. Plus he has an air of his own toxicity. I remember my first day in my new career when I was in my early 20's. I was hired on the same place he worked (my mom worked there too). He stopped me going to my first shift and instead of telling me to have a good day he told me that he worked hard to build a reputation there and I better not mess it up. He then would come to work each day and work the area I was working that day in order to try and catch me messing up. Sadly it was my mother who he should have been worried about. She stole money (Govt job) and almost got him fired. The only reason they didn't press charges on her is because he had a long career there and she was made to cash out her retirement account to pay it back.

For the most part, he stood back and allowed her abuse and didn't give a whit. As long as someone was cooking and cleaning up after him (always me) he was fine.

I have only 1 single memory from before age 4. The dentist. It was traumatic. I though ti was normal for most kids to not have many memories from childhood. I dont want to try and recover them. Like Smileless said, the brain is a complex thing and it has repressed those for a reason.

LanoyLanoy
Welcome, sorry you’re going through some hard times.
You may not find the answer to your problem, but you’ll always have a sympathetic ear.

LanoyLanoy Hi, you are not alone. So sorry for your pain and I hope that talking about it will help you in some way. I think there is an amount of shame we feel when we are cut off by somebody, but the thing to remember is that it's not OUR shame. It's theirs.
I am still figuring this out for myself, but welcome!

Hi , I am new to this forum, but I would like to say that I honestly thought I was the only one who was being frozen out of my children's lives. I review over and over what I have done wrong. Heaven knows I am not totally innocent, but nothing to deserve keeping me from my grandkids. It is painful and so hard to see all the beautiful posts about their father {who never had a thing to do with them until they were grown} The grandkids were my life and now some say ["oh well just don't talk to them!] How do I go on ?

Prawns made me smile too Armadillo That's kids for you. So funny!

I think flashbacks, particularly smells, can be pretty normal Sara and Smileless . I asked for help and was called a liar, so I learned to hide my feelings and bury things.

Fake memories sound awful because I suppose they remember feeling bad about something and then their mind makes sense of it . The main problem with fake memories and pain is that they are probably just as painful as if it actually happened because they think it has.

Smileless
Yes, the false memory thing is a worry, my own daughter remembers things differently to us, and her siblings.
I know without a shadow of a doubt that some of her recollections simply never happened.
Occasionally I can prove her wrong, but it worries me that a lot of things I think I remember didn’t happen.
When I was pregnant with my last child, I kept getting flashbacks, total recall, I could see myself, smell smells, see what everyone was wearing.
I couldn’t even think about it for years without crying for that poor little girl who was me, my husband said I was dreaming, but it never felt like a dream.