Understanding estrangement

"I'm a bit afraid of remembering things that are better left forgotten" I totally get that Sara.

Our minds are extremely complex and can and do repress painful and traumatic memories, sometimes for years. I know this from personal experience when I began to have flash backs about a period of abuse I'd suffered as a small child.

The memories began to re surface when I was 19. To begin with although they were making me feel uncomfortable, I didn't know why so asked my mother what they could mean.

She broke down, filling in the gaps, shocked and horrified that I'd remembered anything at all. Repressed memories are repressed for a reason, we're not ready to deal with them. It's our mind's way of protecting us.

It's a mine field isn't it and then of course we have the frightening issue of false memories, where someone has a 'memory' that isn't theirs but has been 'given' to them by someone else.

This is what has happened with our ES, 'memories' of incidents that are not in fact from his childhood but from his wife's.

I’m so pleased therapy is helping some of you.
Personally, I don’t think it would benefit me, I don’t trust all of my memories, and I think there’s an awful lot of things that were covered up and never spoken about.
To be honest, I’m a bit afraid of remembering things that are better left forgotten.

As long as we are always trying to be better then that's good isn't it. One of the last things my mum said is that I used my children as pawns. I read all this to my counsellor as I didn't get what she meant as my boys are too old for me to boss around. My counsellor said that it's strange she would call them pawns and that she is obviously viewing it like a game yet view's my boys as the smallest pieces in it. I ended up laughing because one of my boys likes chess and when he was young he used to call them prawns. Its made a change to laugh in counselling and I stopped crying. I don't think we can understand them can we, even things that do make sense are all choices they made that they tried to hide with abusive behaviours. We just need to understand ourselves and keep getting better. I would like to like myself. I feel like I like myself a lot more than I did but I'm always hard on myself all the time over things I can't help like being ill and not physically capable of doing things at times.

Armadillo I'm so sorry to hear that. I have similar experiences that only a look in my medical notes would confirm. I have chosen not to try to look, though for some time I was very tempted to.

Yes, I think ultimately forgiving and letting go, remembering the good bits but not accepting harm back into your life is a good way forwards. I have heard it said "I don't want them to starve, but they aren't eating at my table". You can want the best for them, without wanting anything to do with them. No bitterness. I'm working on it.

You're definitely not alone Allsorts. I am here as part of a toxic sandwich in which I have a Nparent and N enabler parent and a child who has estranged me who has qualities of both GP. I've had a lot of therapy and am still in therapy. I'm pretty sure I'm not N, but may have some qualities?
I suppose time and space do help, but overall we came from someone, somewhere and our identity remains the same. That's why we are always thinking of that person or persons.

Yes there is another thread, but I can't see the harm in having more than one. Smileless does an amazing job, but has her own life to lead and can't be expected to read everything!

I remember when I was young I had a lot of accidents and I remember her hurting me but I still don't know if I trust those memories. They happened while she was a single mum so no witnesses. I remember being really poorly and she wouldn't take me to a doctor and things like that. All the things that happened while I was a child are really unclear and my counsellor says that I shouldn't try to make them clearer or I could fill in the blanks with imagination. I find it really hard at times as I wanted a good relationship so much and letting that go is harder than estranging in a way. I think that forgiving and not forgetting is the right thing isn't it. If you forgive and be in a relationship then they just get away with it and this way they don't.

Freedomefromthepast thats so sad for her- that shes a victim of her own circumstances, but also that she is probably unable to see this. Therefore she can never work on putting things right or learn...

For yourself, it's been a massive pain for you and now dealing with the aftermath of what she's put your children through. I'm so sorry for your pain and suffering. Is your Dad an enabler? Because someone always has to enable this for the behaviour to be able to continue. One of the hardest things I had to face was not what one parent DID, but that the other one enabled it by turning a blind eye.

I think the elderly narcissist's life is a sad one. If you feel able to, you could stay LC and help her when necessary, but leave the kids at home so she has no chance to mess them up further. Therapy would be good for them as well as you.

Forgiveness. Yes, we have to forgive ourselves for thinking we were the bad ones, the black sheep. We have to forgive them for not being perfect, for being flawed and for not getting therapy before they had kids to prevent them from passing on the family trauma to the next generation.

WE have to get therapy so we don't pass on the family trauma to the next generation. Forgiving is a part of letting go of what was, but I am not all there yet. I am still in therapy and still healing.

I think forgiving a parent or child, is the first step to accepting that you aren’t to blame for everything. If you forgive them, there has to have been something to forgive.
For people like me, who blamed everything on myself for many years, that’s definitely a step in the right direction.
I still know I often made things worse with my attitude and my mouthiness, but I also feel sure that I was not the only one.

Thank you for bringing up the topic of forgiveness. It is something that I struggle with and flip back and forth on.

For the most part, I feel nothing about how my childhood went. But I do have days when I get angry about what was expected of me as a child (parentification) and the emotional abuse that no one ever "saw" because it was so veiled. I guess I have had enough time to move on, plus I like who I am right now and I know that every day of my life since birth has created who I am today. It made me stronger.

I am having a harder time forgiving what she did to my child. If we had been married it would be called parental alienation. Though that is more recent, a mere 3 years. And we are still working through the trauma with our youngest.

On other days, I struggle to forgive myself for allowing her such a close relationship with my kids. I wasn't ready to see that what I experienced was abuse though, it was "normal"" because that is how I was raised. And she seemed to love them so much. She even lied to my face and told me that she would never bring the kids into our issues.

The #1 thing I struggle with is flipping between feeling sorry for her and feeling nothing at all. She is old and going to be alone after my dad dies. None of her 3 kids want anything to do with her any longer, nor do any of her grandkids. She has also alienated her entire family, 1 of 6 kids. She has no friends left because she is miserable to be around. Is that my problem because she gave birth to me? No. But could I leave her alone? I would normally not be that person. I do know that I will never serve up my children to her again.

Forgiving is not forgetting. It's remembering and letting go.

Yes I think mine is a work in progress as well Smileless

Absolutely Sara "it's obvious we can't move on completely, or we wouldn't all be here trying to make sense of it".

As for forgiveness, that's not easy is it when the pain is great and the damage has been done. For me, it's a work in progress and I think will be so for the rest of my life.

I agree that we may be able to forgive and to move on with our lives with or without forgiveness, but I know I will never forget; if only I could.

OnwardandUpward
My parents were together, they weren’t people who would ever have considered divorce, it would have been scandalous.
They had nothing in common, no shared interests, they had made their bed and they had to lie in it.
I would so much like to say it’s all in the past, and although I feel free, and no longer feel any guilt, it’s obvious we can’t move on completely, or we wouldn’t all be here trying to make sense of it.

Were they still together when it was said? Mine weren't and I feel that the attempt to smear one parent by the other was very bad, considering that all the time they were together it was a closely guarded secret.

There was diagnosed mental illness in my family which accounted for the reasons why. I dont want to put details out there but will PM if you want to chat Sara.

I hope the decision helps you heal, Sara. I'm so sorry about the loss of your Father. I think there are some things it might be better not to know. If it was serious enough, if would of course be on our health record but I have never wanted to "go there" either.

OnwardandUpward
I don’t know why my dad told me, the trouble is I don’t really know anything, everything was covered up, I am only really guessing, but I think there was probably undiagnosed mental illness, and I feel sorry for what my dad had to put up with, it cant have been much of a life.
I wish now that I had talked to him before he died, but honestly, I don’t think he would have opened up very much.
I am free of my mother, I will never see her again, I can be magnanimous enough to wish her a good life, I don’t want to be any part of it,

I'm not probably "there" in the forgiveness rankings because I'm still upset.
Sara is it just me (?) but I don't think it's always very helpful when one parent tells you stuff like this about the other? I've also had a similar thing said, but feel even if it WAS true that it doesn't help me to know. In fact, I'd rather NOT know. It shattered any happy illusions that I did have. Do you ever wish your Dad didn't tell you?

I'm so sorry for your pain.

Armadillo
You are a better person than me as well.
I think I can forgive, because I know my mother was damaged in her own way, even though nothing was ever explained or talked about..
My dad once told me he stopped her from causing me serious injury, it seemed so bizarre that I used to think he was having a joke with me, but of course I realise differently now.
So I can forgive, but forgetting is a lot, lot harder.

I do think forgiving someone who is an abuser can be done, for your own peace of mind- but it doesn't mean you have to have them back in your life. Forgiving doesn't have to mean forgetting....

Thank you you are always so kind

Armadillo you have done nothing to feel guilty about. It's your mom who should feel guilty. But she won't. You took a hard decision to get away from your mom. The amount of courage and strength that took I admire greatly. Time to let go of that guilt. You have the rest of your life to look forward to, a family that needs and loves you they are your priority.

I will never forgive my son, never trust him again and never forget.

You saying you could forgive makes you a better person than me.

No more looking back. Look to the future no more what ifs. You deserve a guilt free life. Be the mom your own never was to you. You will be happier and healthier . Lock that guilt away today. ?

I think I can forgive because it must be a very unhappy person who turns to abusive behaviours but I can't forget it all as it has made too many changes to me. If my mum ever got better I could forgive her but I wouldn't want a relationship as there just isn't one any more. I just need to stop feeling guilty about that.

Allsorts
I agree that you can never go back, it would take an exceptional person to forgive and forget, it would always be there between you.

CafeAuLait, Your observations on first posting on here are I think near the mark. Many things come into play and people change throughout their lives. As a mother I didn’t want to let go, to things were and not are. It takes some of us little time to understand the full implications of it, it’s too big, others like me hold on to old ideas hoping for a long time for connecting again. I don’t think you can ever go back though, you can’t ever have a relationship where there has been so much hurt, it’s living with that and making a new life for yourselves you have to focus on,

It's true Sara. Sometimes I feel we are all only here by a thread anyway- just a breath away from this world and the next. Of course we will all have made mistakes (and our children will make mistakes as parents too because that's human nature) Except every generation thinks they can do better than the last! Maybe we do in some ways.

I don't think I am like my parents at all, which offends them. It would be nice if everyone could just accept people how they are without trying to force them to be something they are not. I certainly don't want to force my kids to do anything they aren't comfortable with, but then I don't expect them to try and coerce me either. I don't accept coercion off anyone these days, but I haven't always been this strong.

When it comes down to it, many of our relationships seem to be held by a thread.
I try very hard to be nothing like my mother, that’s not to say I haven’t made a ton of mistakes, and of course my children may find me irritating in other ways!