Understanding estrangement

Smileless
She had her problems, I just gradually realised that they weren’t my fault.
I don’t really blame her, it’s just that I no longer blame myself either.

We all do things wrong Sara but that doesn't justify cruel, spiteful, cold and critical treatment.

I'm glad that you finally managed to make the break but sorry that you had too.

Armadillo
My experiences are very similar to yours.
My mother could be cruel and spiteful. At best cold and critical.
I know I’ve done things wrong, and I know I haven’t always been easy, but I do know that I tried and tried to make up for it over many years, even putting them before my husband and children at times.
But without going into too much detail, I started to realise that not everything could be my fault, I wasn’t responsible for their miserable lives, I loved my dad, but once he died, it got harder, until something happened which just made me snap.
That’s twenty years ago and I haven’t spoken to her since, nor shall I.
The feeling of freedom from her is wonderful.

For me estranging was very hard because I wanted to have a good mum and I knew what good mums were supposed to be like. I think that I thought I needed to change for her to be a good mum and I didn't get that she was the problem not me. She kept telling me I was not good enough too. In the end I just couldn't do it any more and I've been happier since. I think if I had just estranged for no reason my boys would be curious but they don't like her either so she isn't going to get any contact from them. It wouldn't be positive anyway as if they heard from her they would just tell her off. I wish i could say that my mum knew she was in the wrong and would work on it but she seems to pretend that she was a good mum and I think she has made herself believe it somehow. It seems strange to say that she could be abusive and not know but I think she doesn't. I think that a lot of people have negative aspects in their personalityvut they always think they are right and can't see it about themselves and my mum is a bit more extreme. That's why I keep doing counselling really as if I am left alone I start thinking I am the problem again and get down in myself. People say you don't have to have a relationship with anyone so why I would feel guilty for estranging when my mum has been abusive seems unfair. Guilt usually stops you doing things though but mine doesn't at all. I feel bad but I know I am happier without her and thsst is better for my family so it was the right thing and being guilty is easer than the way she made me feel.

It is hard CafeAuLait. Apparently our ES had seen his GM a few times but not for the last 2 years. We weren't aware of this as Mr. S. had asked her not tell him if she'd seen our ES and GC as it was too hurtful.

Losing a GM is painful of course, but losing your mum even at the age of 92 is heart breaking and I just hope that our ES will put his father's feelings above his own.

It's really hard to know what to do when it comes to death and estranged relatives. When my BIL died I wasn't sure what was appropriate. My DH called my MIL and she told him to come to the funeral. We did but I think it was a big mistake and actually not appropriate. I wouldn't do that again.

Yes absolutely OnwardandUpward, we know we did our best from the moment he was born and for 27 years we had a wonderful relationship. He really was the loveliest son anyone could have wished for.

"hurt people, hurt people" I totally agree with that. Our ES's wife did have a difficult child hood. Her mother and I were friends for sometime before they met, in fact it was she who 'arranged' their first meeting.

Interestingly the things I was falsely accused of, were incidents from her childhood. Such was the strength of her projection that when our ES relayed a particular incident to his brother, and another to Mr. S., he did so as if he had experienced them himself.

He's never spoken directly to me about them, so perhaps he knows somewhere deep inside that he could never look the mother who adored him in the eye and lie.

I think a lack of self awareness and too much pride are factors when it comes to our son. I wonder if the former was present when he emailed me following the death of my mum, and has emailed his dad now his mum has died.

Was there a moment before hitting the 'send' button that he thought perhaps it wasn't appropriate, that 7.5 years and now 8.5 years after telling us we were no longer a part of his life and were to stay away? Did he think that we may not want to hear from him or was he more concerned with 'doing the right thing' and possibly easing his own conscience?

So much of what you post resonates with me Whiff, especially your first paragraph. The young man you met at the hospital sounds lovely and of course he's right. We have no way of knowing what decisions our GC will make when they're old enough.

TBH I really don't think I'd want to one day have one, or possibly two handsome young men turn up on our door step, perhaps looking like their dad, that for me would be very painful but of course I wouldn't turn them away.

I am the stage where if my son wants to talk to me he will have to come here and face me. And he will have a lot of questions to answer. I will not let him take the cowards way out. Like he did in the first place.

We didn't raise him to be cruel or cowardly. Unfortunately he has become that himself. What a wonderful example to set my 3 grandson's. Have a problem send a vile email and letter. Fill both with lies so you don't feel bad about what you have done. Make your mom to be the the evil doer.

Tell the biggest lie of all by saying you love her . Then call her vindictive and manipulative and you don't want her influence anywhere near you or your family and zero contact .

Well he's got zero contact. Hope he's happy.

When I was at the hospital Monday night and didn't get home until Tuesday afternoon. Sitting in the waiting room with a group of people you are with all that time and all feeling ill. You get to talking. When anybody asks I always say I have 2 children and 5 grandson's. I have never denied I have a son. As we talked it came out what my son had done. I am glad I talked about it. A wonderful young man had been keeping our spirits up and making us laugh. But he told me when he was little his mom stopped speaking to her dad and they had nothing to do with him. She would never say why. But when he was 16 he decided to contact his granddad . He told his mom she wasn't happy but said he was old enough. He said he was glad as he has a relationship with him. And told me my grandson's will one day want to know me. He said it was strange growing up other children had a granddad and he didn't. But his mom would not talk about him.

He told me all this and said don't give up hope. If that happens I have a long wait as my grandson's will be 5 and 3 soon the 2 I know and the youngest has to be 1 now. But patience is something I have lots of. Time will tell.

But I will not live my life waiting incase that happens. I promised my husband to live the best life I can and I do. I have never broken a promise I made him. He is still my husband and always will be. He would be so hurt if he knew what our son had done. But then again he wouldn't have put up with what I have from my son and daughter in law over the years.

Nothing prepares you to be widowed at 45. I have always done the best I could after he died for the children. Always treated then equally like we had always done. But the grief I still feel for my husband over shadows the grief I feel over the lose of my son and grandson's.

As Smiles and the rest of you have helped me . I try and pay that back by helping people on the beveveament forum with my experiences over the last 17 years.

I don't know if it's still the doctors code. But it used to be something like do no harm. I have always lived my life like that. It's easy to be cruel and hurt people. But that is not how I want to be. If it was my husband and me ,then just me wouldn't have put up with all the hurtful and cruel remarks we suffered from his parents and then just his mom after his father's death. All the pain they inflected we never gave up on them and they saw us and the children every week. And helped when they needed it.

My parents where complete the opposite of his parents. He was finally loved and told how proud they where of him. Like my dad when he met my mom he found out what a family was. We gave that to our children. Unconditional love and lots of attention . The things children need. Like my parents told my brother and me everyday we told our children how much we loved them and how proud we where of them.

Only once did I tell my son I was ashamed of him . He must have been about 15 he drunk a whole bottle of vodka and had to go too hospital to have his stomach pumped. This was while his dad had cancer. He had the nerve to blame us for him drinking the vodka. I told him never make me ashamed of you again he promised he wouldn't. He has broken that promise.

None of us know how long we will live so we have to make the most of each day. I have no time for what if's. I live for the now. It's how I face each day without the other half of me. Grief for my husband does not get easier as the years go by but I cope. Other widows will understand that.

As per usual I have rambled on. But talking to you helps. And hope I make sense. Thanks for listening. ?

Smileless2012

*OnwardandUpward* it's horrible to feel that you are being judged and even on an online forum like GN, on threads specifically about estrangement, it takes courage to share even just the tip of your experience.

You're spot on about the importance of learning the grieving process. Estrangement is referred too as a living bereavement and I think that acknowledging that we are grieving for what we've lost is very important. Doing so can hopefully enable us to be kinder to ourselves, to realise and understand that this is not something we can just get over. It may be something some will never get over and there's no shame in that.

I can in a way identify with that Sara, despite it being our son's decision to estrange us, I don't want to see him or talk to him anymore, and have felt this way for some time.

I'm not happy with his choice, we lost not just him but our only GC but have found peace (most of the time) and happiness in my life without him.

You couldn't make it up could you Whiff. You moved closer to your son and D and lost your son, our ES and his wife moved closer to us, just 15 doors away, and we lost him.

I agree cornishpatsy that it's important to accept what has happened and move on, whether you're the one who estranged or the one who has been estranged. That said, it's a difficult process and for me, being able to share with others not just what I have and continue to experience in terms of the actual estrangement, but the things we have done to move forward with our lives, has been immensely beneficial to my well being.

Simply knowing that you've shown someone else that they're not alone, that you and others understand their pain and suffering is testament to there being some good that can come from something so awful.

Thanks Smileless. I don't know how you get to the point where you stop wanting to see them, but I'm not there yet. I really miss what could have been, but realistically there's a part of me that accepts things had got really bad (I don't want to explain because it's identifying) I was saying nothing and keeping quiet so I didn't risk losing them- but there came a point where I couldn't keep quiet anymore about the injection and they cut me off. It was not my choice to be estranged and I had put up with a lot of nonsense for a long time just to have them as my family. I don't miss what they put me through but I do miss the good times- and I know I did my best. There wasn't anything more I could have done. Is that how you feel?

I want to believe people can change- and they can, but only if they want to. So here we are back to ourselves again and the only person we can change is ourselves.

I've been thinking lately that it must be a painful thing to be a child who estranges from their parents and that they must see things differently from their parents. Like in the war the French thought they were right, but the Germans thought they were right.

A phrase I've heard a bit lately is "hurt people, hurt people" and I've thought maybe the Estranged get their feelings hurt and then lash out in a hurtful /impulsive way but lack the self awareness to back down or have too much pride ?

CafeAuLait

OnwardandUpward

Hang on, Whiff! You mean they aren't talking to you because they wanted you to live closer? I'm assuming that's for babysitting duties etc? So sorry that's how it is, but it's really silly of them to want more and end up with nothing! I think a lot of these kids don't look at the bigger picture and might be quite impulsive (perhaps don't know how to back down after their stupid mistakes?)

People can be strange like that. My MIL did the same. Wanted more and decided if she couldn't have it, then nothing was better.

Oh wow, that's mad!

Thank you Sara, what a lovely thing to say.

Smileless
You handle your sadness with such dignity.
I have never seen you write an unkind or reproachful word.
I know you have had time to get used to it, but you are always supportive and calm, I’m sure you have helped a lot of people come to terms with things.

March and Maybee it's good to hear from those for whom estrangement wasn't permanent and that relationships can be saved.

OnwardandUpward it's horrible to feel that you are being judged and even on an online forum like GN, on threads specifically about estrangement, it takes courage to share even just the tip of your experience.

You're spot on about the importance of learning the grieving process. Estrangement is referred too as a living bereavement and I think that acknowledging that we are grieving for what we've lost is very important. Doing so can hopefully enable us to be kinder to ourselves, to realise and understand that this is not something we can just get over. It may be something some will never get over and there's no shame in that.

I can in a way identify with that Sara, despite it being our son's decision to estrange us, I don't want to see him or talk to him anymore, and have felt this way for some time.

I'm not happy with his choice, we lost not just him but our only GC but have found peace (most of the time) and happiness in my life without him.

You couldn't make it up could you Whiff. You moved closer to your son and D and lost your son, our ES and his wife moved closer to us, just 15 doors away, and we lost him.

I agree cornishpatsy that it's important to accept what has happened and move on, whether you're the one who estranged or the one who has been estranged. That said, it's a difficult process and for me, being able to share with others not just what I have and continue to experience in terms of the actual estrangement, but the things we have done to move forward with our lives, has been immensely beneficial to my well being.

Simply knowing that you've shown someone else that they're not alone, that you and others understand their pain and suffering is testament to there being some good that can come from something so awful.

Therapy isn't for everyone.
It's helped immensely for me though, it's gave me understanding on healthy boundaries, communication and self worth.

I struggled alot with communication and was a people pleaser, couldn't say no and suffered.
As I had little to no relationship with my in laws I was definitely seen as the difficult DIL and my MIL was the devil in my eyes, throw a baby into the mix and it's not good.

We are thankfully back in touch now after alot of talking and we are all on the same page. We communicate alot better and there was blame on both sides, I couldn't see it then.

It can happen in the blink of an eye. Thankfully, for me, it did resolve itself but I never dreamt that it could happen to me as I’m never confrontational with my family.

OnwardandUpward I have never been allowed to babysit my son's 2 son's I know. I was never allowed to be alone with them.

I babysit my daughter and son in laws 2 boys regularly. As my daughter says they adore me.
My story is on the thread Smiles started. Through her help through PMs I was able to find the courage to post openly.

My son and daughter in law are good parents my grandson's are well loved and cared for. Why they have treated me the way they have my brother recons is my daughter in law is jealous. I have no idea why. My son has cut all our side of the family out of his life not just me.

OnwardandUpward

Hang on, Whiff! You mean they aren't talking to you because they wanted you to live closer? I'm assuming that's for babysitting duties etc? So sorry that's how it is, but it's really silly of them to want more and end up with nothing! I think a lot of these kids don't look at the bigger picture and might be quite impulsive (perhaps don't know how to back down after their stupid mistakes?)

People can be strange like that. My MIL did the same. Wanted more and decided if she couldn't have it, then nothing was better.

Cornishpatsy
I totally agree
There is no point going over and over it, I know how I feel, I stopped contact with my mother because I don’t want to see her or talk to her anymore.
I don’t want therapy, I’m happy with my choice.

Hang on, Whiff! You mean they aren't talking to you because they wanted you to live closer? I'm assuming that's for babysitting duties etc? So sorry that's how it is, but it's really silly of them to want more and end up with nothing! I think a lot of these kids don't look at the bigger picture and might be quite impulsive (perhaps don't know how to back down after their stupid mistakes?)

Therapy! I am currently having it for a multitude of reasons, but all the therapist keeps asking me is "What do you want to get out of this?" If I had his job I could do no work and just ask people How, why, where, what and when questions all day long (haha)

I'm not finding it very helpful, but would say what's more helpful is understanding the grieving process and learning to accept what is. I'm not completely there and probably nor are a lot of people.

JaneJudge therapy may help some people but for me I don't need nor want it. I am not the one needing therapy. If you saw what my son wrote and my daughter in law you would understand . Smiles knows what my daughter in law wrote about me.

But I haven't done anything wrong you may think I must be I can assure I haven't. All I have ever done is give them love and help .

My son knows what a mother,mother in law and grandmother from hell is like he knew he's father's mother. He saw how she treated us all especially me and his dad. I am nothing like she was .

My crime I moved to live 40 mins away from them. I live 10 mins from my daughter.

Both my son and daughter wanted me closer to them. As I used to live 100+ miles away. My children where brought up the same. The difference is the people they feel in love with.

I think it is important to accept it and move on. For whatever reason the estranged person does not like you or you do not like them. The reasons do not matter, you cannot change how somebody feels.

I think if you want to understand your own estrangement it is useful to seek talking based therapy to help you come to terms with it and move forward.

At times I have felt very judged by people in my community who assume the worst. It seems easy for people to point the finger and jump to conclusions. I suppose unless you have been cut off by someone you can't really gauge how deeply it cuts. I have stopped trying to explain and just pretend "Im fine" because that is what people want to hear.

I don't write much online in case it identifies me and makes the problem longer lasting.