Toxic Mother

My husband was in the same situation with his mum, and he tried and tried about 10 years ago he had some therapy, which helped him find balance in his relationship with her, she still tried all her manipulation and bad behaviour, he could deal with it better, unfortunately she died at Christmas, long illness then covid, he has since decided to cut his sisters out of his life who behave just like his mum, and he is a much calmer more settled person, there are no easy answers, you can't change her just yourself,

Having been in your shoes up til a year ago It's more than okay to end a toxic relationship. Tried for 50 yrs to play dutiful daughter and for some parents it can never be enough. Be aware behaviour can escalate - been accused of stealing stuff that parents binned 20plus yrs ago and had police called on daughter. Blocking her number gave me peace at last x Before anybody judge's- if a spouse or partner behaved like this would the actions be the same. Stay strong and look after yourself xx

Thanks to the op for the original post and all the posts which have really resonated with me. Without going over a lot of personal stuff, I believe traumatised life as a teenager on the front line during ww2 somewhere in europe plus being a child in an abusive culture towards women has much to answer for. Big hugs to all xxx

I agree with VioletSky. My mother was like this and I just switched off from her. Did the necessary, made polite conversation about the weather or the roses and quietly got up and left when she started playing up.

There's a novel about this situation called"Can you hear me mother", by the late Margaret Forster.
I would try and get professional medical help. I know someone who went through this and she informed the social services and they popped in to see her mother. If she can't cook anymore get her ready meals there are lots that cater for older people. Stock her freezer. Don,t set a time for phoning do it once a week when you feel you can tolerate it. Like others say put the phone down if she is silent or abusive.
Just keep your conscience clear by doing the minimal and if that is nothing then so be it.

This could be my mother you are describing. Everything revolves around her needs, her wants, HER! I can't bring myself to cut her off because, despite her vicious tongue, I can see that she is also vulnerable especially she now has Alzheimers. However, I now let it wash over me for the most part. I have learned to be more assertive about her crossing my boundaries. Yes, sometimes it still can be hurtful but for the most part I am able to compartmentalise her personality disorder in my brain which means I can live with my own conscience which would trouble me greatly if I walked away. I suspect that indoctrination as child that a mother was the most important person to you and only a defective person walks away from them still runs deep!
If you can't compartmentalise then you have to walk away for your own self preservation.
Whatever you do, you have to repeat to yourself continually that there is nothing wrong with you. Her pain is not your pain. Say it out loud as often as you can and you will be able to mitigate the effects of her damaging behaviour.

I had never heard of Grey Rock either but it is basically what I tried to do with my narcissistic mother. I have seen some of the correspondence between her and my father during the war and she was clearly ever thus. There were four of us kids and she played us off against each other all our lives. Sadly my father died at 60 and the following 33 years were a struggle as her bitterness was all consuming. One sibling, her avowed favourite, escaped abroad, another put a 5 hour drive between home and mother’s so the burden mostly fell on two of us, one an hour away and me 70 miles away. As she went into her 80s our clued up teenagers were finding psychological reasons why she was as she was and why her offspring were still trying to please her after a lifetime of her behaviour. I still wonder about that but I am glad now that she is 12 years gone that we didn’t give up and we can laugh wryly about those years when we meet up.
She was as you would expect an appalling MIL to her lovely DILs but they too supported us to the end.

Hi, I have a similar relationship with my elderly sister. When she has upset me I remain distant for a while but always go back because the worry and guilt is more painful than knowing I am being abused. She may be depressed but unable to ask for any medical help. I would say “hang in there” but try not to let the arrows go deep.

I think cutting her off would likely prove more emotionally damaging to you, being an empathetic and generous soul. Wrapping your emotions in psychological bubble wrap whilst you see her and trying the grey rock approach would leave you feeling good about yourself but protected from her harm. Guilt can be a very destructive emotion too and one not easy to push away. Good luck.

I think you need to tell yourself that she can't make you feel anything (guilt etc) unless you are willing to feel it. You need to deal with your own emotional reaction so you no longer feel so hurt and stressed by her. She sounds awful tbh and I would probably tell her, in writing so she can't twist words, that unless she behaves in a more positive or socially acceptable way towards you then you won't be having any extended contact with her. If she behaves better maybe spend longer with her but if she's horrible to you just say so and tell her you're off now, and leave. Not fair on you at all but Ihave known people to behave like this after something like a stroke, although they can often control the behaviour if they choose to. She sounds very unhappy but then her misery will breed misery in both her and you. Spending time with her when shes being horrid is only condoning it. Good luck and be kind to yourself as it's unlikely she will be, so don't hold out for her love or approval. xx

timetogo2016

Walk away,you teach people how to treat you.
She does what works for her.
Leave her to it.

I agree with this lady but walking away isn't going to help your guilt when she dies and you may need counselling yourself
I would think she was badly neglected as a child or abused and has been angry with the world ever since and never had the right counselling herself Sadly its too late now as it is for so many other abusers who are they themselves victims and the cycle often continues. Happily you don't seem to have inherited this and you have your lovely brother for support. great that you posted this and I hope it has helped you. xxxx

I sooo feel for you Gampsy, my mum was similar, she hated children including her grandchildren as she saw them as taking me away from her. I had this dilemma over and over again especially as she grew weaker & I did grey rock method & it did help. I wouldn't have liked myself if I had just walked away so I put boundaries around myself, I would say to her politely things like 'don't speak like that' or 'I don't want to hear about that & it made no difference but it helped me. I think my mum had a personality disorder, like an emotional scar you can't get over in her case because she had a bad marriage, but even when she inherited the means to leave him she didn't. she did like to talk about history though & if I could steer her to that it helped. She was like on constant repeat, she never stopped. she's been gone 3 years now and I often think how much simpler & better my life is now although I realise thats a wicked thing to say. Put some boundaries around your relationship with your mum, you could tell her that & why, if you think it would help. I'm proud now that I didn't totally break with her, thats so drastic & whatever she says she'll need you more now she's ailing.

It sounds to me like your mother has narcissism. Have a look at it online and see what you think. If she has it will help you realise about her behaviour and why she behaves like she does.

Your mother is obviously getting support from her neighbours so tell her that as she has help you will no longer be getting her shopping.
She should be grateful to you & your brother for staying by her but now is the time to walk away.
Tell your brother what you plan to do so that he knows.
She may try to manipulate you by saying she will disinherit you but just stand firm
Good luck and hope your brother is doing ok too after Covid

Love the Grey Rock reference. I got that advice from a counsellor long ago. It works - largely. I bore myself rigid as I don’t say anything interesting but I know I’m out of there within an hour or so. I have tried taking mine for days out but she doesn’t enjoy it really. I’ve wondered what their mothers were like. They say you’re a product of your childhood?

Tell her you no longer wish anything to do with her. Let her neighbours son get her shopping!
Walk away.

I had a similar experience and found reducing contact was best for me the door is ajar but she still tries to push it open. I have conversations as I would with someone I have just met mostly she talks about herself all the time so only need the occasional yes. What I did find after this was I flourished and so did my family. The lightbulb moment came when I saw her trying to treat my children the same way and I knew I had to take action. Last time we spoke her first words were patronizing about a medical condition I had (in her mind a weakness) when I said I don't have that anymore she looked disappointed and was obviously searching for something else to put me down but these things no longer affect me I have learned I do not need her approval and will never it get so why try.

Hi, you have my sympathies having been in a similar situation. I have not spoken to my mother for 12 years and can honestly say my life is better for it. There’s no bitchiness or negativity now. Looking back on my childhood, she really was an awful selfish person. My kids assure me I’m nothing like her, and we are all happy, so I guess I stopped the rot!
To cut a long story short, we decided the time had come to cut contact when we caught her stealing cash from our house. She knew where my husbands wallet was and we got her on camera. She refused to watch herself and just shrugged her shoulders when confronted. If she has any mental health issues she refused to acknowledge this and get help. I didn’t care about the money but I was devastated at the sneakiness as we knew it had been going on for a while. Sadly this came with a price as my brother, with whom I’d always enjoyed a good relationship, although he had to acknowledge what she’d done as the proof was there, he felt we should brush it all under the carpet and pretend it hadn’t happened. So he sided with her and we have no contact.
Some people assume that you must be a cold hard person if you don’t like your mother…..absolutely not true.

Here's a couple of grey rock links.

www.healthline.com/health/grey-rock#offer-nothing

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/grey-rock

I had one of those. Not a single maternal bone in her body, apparently some do not. When she died it was a relief I didn't have to explain anymore why I was estranged from her. She was 93 and thought at the time 'only the good die young,' When I had my children I made sure they know they are loved.
Terribly damaging to be mentally cruel. Walk away and live your life as others have said 'you didn't ask to be born'

Sometimes cutting the tie is the only way to save yourself! I have been through a similar situation , my sons watched m over the years being belittled and upset everytime I was in contact with her and couldn't understand why I put up with it. In the end I cut contact. I no longer feel useless and inferior and if we do meet up I hold my own and if I need to I can leave the situation. You need to start valuing yourself and don't feel guilty

Gampsy quite honestly your mother does not deserve you! My MIL used to go around the house muttering "nobody knows how much I suffer" and "I wish I were dead". After she said that for the last time, I told here she had enough pills in the house if she really meant it!! I did't hear that utter again!!

Some really excellent advice. Whatever you decide, remember no decision has to be permanent.
If you try conciliation and it fails, a gradual estrangement could help you see what it’s like to be free of this terrible emotional abuse.
You’ve been a caring, dutiful, thoughtful daughter. She’s been an emotionally detached, controlling, vindictive, selfish person. There’s nothing remotely mothering in her behaviour.
You owe her nothing. You should never feel guilt! She’s ruining your life by digging away at your mental health - she feels no guilt. In fact she seems to thrive off it.
The fact that you’re asking on here, suggests the time is right - you’ve had enough and realise for your own health is at risk.
I wish you strength and peace!

Before I say this, I’m really not trying to excuse past toxic behaviour. You say your mum is now in her 80s and it seems recently lost your dad - her behaviour is now worse, yes ? Could this be the start of dementia do you think ? May be triggered by bereavement. My mum, who is 90, has dementia, diagnosed a couple of years ago and thought to be triggered by the sudden death of a very close family member. She frequently engages in the kind of manipulative behaviour you’re describing. Might be worth getting it checked out before you do anything else.

I feel like you’re writing my story Gampsy. My mother was a narcissist all her life but walking away just wasn’t an option for me. I found huge help and support on line. Type in narcissistic mothers and you’ll be floored by the amount of information, support and advice there is. I bought a book called something like Never Good Enough,Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers ’. Just reading about the condition and how other people have coped was incredibly helpful. My mother died three years ago and perversely I miss her. I miss the fact that now she will never change which is of course ridiculous, but apparently very common. We are all different and many people can walk away and that is best for them. What was best for me, and it sounds like maybe for you was to look after her. I’m glad I did because now I have at least the peace of knowing I did my best for her, even if it was sometimes grudging and with very poor grace at the time. Do what you have to for your own peace of mind but remember that it will be over soon enough. Very best wishes, where you are is exhausting, I look back that those years now and they seem like a different lifetime.