Toxic Mother

That worries me for Gampsy too loveOc and I said so on page one of this thread.

Nice to see you posting; it's been a while.

She is in her 80's now. Would cutting her off upset you in the long run? Try putting down the phone on her if she is unpleasant. If visiting, leave if she is unpleasant. Then wait for her to contact you. Keep this strategy up regardless of her anger, threats, tears or whatever.

There are no easy answers maddyone. You're obviously aware of your mum's controlling behaviour and it's extremely difficult when you knowsomeone's using 'illness' to get attention; munchausen syndrome.

You dread not responding/being there in case 'this time it's for real' especially as she does have some genuine health issues.

Whether or not you make some changes should be based purely on your needs both physical and emotional. As long as that's the case, whatever you decide will be the right thing.

maddyone you have to ultimately do what feels right for you but just for you to consider:

You could take a little power back by telling her you will be doing 3 days a week in future and then ask her which days will work for her so that she feels involved in the decision.

You could say to her that from now on you will visit every 2 days. Then some weeks you will only have 3 visits and some weeks 4 and perhaps this will feel more regular to her and she won't notice.

Whatever you do you don't deserve to feel any guilt at all. You have gone above and beyond what most people would find time for even if their mothers were brilliant and they have a rock solid relationship.

So whatever you do, take some strength from knowing you are a good daughter and far more than she deserves.

It is very difficult Smileless.
I do say no sometimes Hithere, but unfortunately my mother has had a lifetime of being very domineering to her whole family. We were brought up to do as we were told, no questions asked, and the consequence is that I’m fairly conditioned to do as she wishes. When I don’t visit her, she tells me she cried all day on the day I didn’t go, or I get a text if I’m not going telling me how ill she is. The trouble is she’s at the end of her life with multiple conditions now, but I realise that nonetheless she may still live several more years, but, and here’s the difficulty, she may die tomorrow.
Whenever we went on holiday without fail (when she lived in her sheltered apartment) she would be ill. Every time, more often than not, something trivial or non specific. She has always used illness to get attention, from as far back as I can remember. I’ve only understood her behaviour in recent years, mainly because my husband has patiently explained to me many times what she is doing. I genuinely believed her for years. But that is set against the fact that she does have several conditions.
I feel I’m in the same position as Gampsy in many ways.

Maddyone
Ir is up to you to determine how much time of your calendar your are willing to spend with your mother
Having healthy personal boundaries is the key here. You also matter

Caving to guilt trips (your mother and your own) is not a long term solution

Have you ever told her no?

You're between a rock and a hard place maddyone. It isn't easy to protect yourself from someone like your mum when you love them is it.

It is a lot of visits, I agree, but my mother expects it. If I don’t go, she wants to know what I’m doing instead, and is often ‘poorly’ or ‘upset’ and texts me or tells me on the next visit. The problem is that I then feel sorry for her and guilty. I do care about her but I’m fully aware that her character is manipulative and attention seeking.

maddyone that's a lot of weekly visits. I don't think anyone would think badly of you if you went less often. Don't feel guilty for being angry, being angry is exactly what keeps us strong and protects us from narcissistic people. Without it you would just be hurt.

Don't feel guilty for feeling angry maddyone your mum is so lucky that you are still a part of her life and that you "actually care about her".

My mother isn’t as bad as yours Gampsy but she is narcissistic in my opinion. She guilt trips me every time I don’t go to see her in her care home. She wants to know what I’m doing and unless I have an appointment or something I can’t avoid, she sends me texts telling me how ill she is. She’s done it today. I do go to see her 3/4 times a week in her care home. She did some awful things in the past, but like you, I feel I have to care for her. I do actually care about her, but I’m angry inside about how she is, then I feel guilty for feeling angry. I think you’ve been given some very good advice on here, but I do understand how difficult it is to actually put it into action.

I wouldn’t cut ties with this unhappy woman, it would make her worse . She certainly sounds as though she has a personality disorder from your description and by being vile she maybe hopes to make herself feel better at your expense. She is old now and won’t live forever and if you cut her off completely you might look back later and start feeling sad. Just keep things light and at a minimum and disappear when she starts with the toxic bit. Give her a kiss, tell her it’s a shame she feels that way but don’t buy into it and argue.

Well, having had a long no contact gap after a fall out with my late father and by the time I fixed that he had dementia. Also having regrets on how my late mum died, I would say try not to cut ties as living with regrets is hard to do. But I would out some healthy boundaries in place . It's hard at first but becomes easier and then you have healthy boundaries as part of your life.
Like recommended keep visits short and as soon as that knot in your stomach begins to tie. Stop mum mid toxic sentence and ok mum it's time for me to go. Love you and see you soon and go .
As you walk down the corridor your smile and have strength the next time to do it and it becomes second nature X

Gampsy I wish you well. There have been so many excellent posts here, sharing good advice. My heart goes out to all of you who have suffered and are still suffering because of these sad disfunctional Mothers. Limited contact with my Mother works best for me and only when I feel strong. I’ve long since stuck to safe subjects during (short) phone conversations and visits. I’ve learned now to ignore the personal criticism and insults which have been life long. I found mindfulness helpful.

Perhaps you and your brother can alternate with one visit/call from one of you once per week and employ the Grey Rock method of communication at each those visits/calls. This way you are not totally cutting your Mum out of your life, but you are each getting a two week reprieve.

I know this is difficult - best wishes going forward.

Would just like to add a comment. Do you ever have a holiday? Perhaps it is time to go away for a week/two and let mother know. She may actually miss you and realise it!!

"So the relationship may not be saved by grey rocking" I agree Hithere but it might be worth trying before finally walking away for good.

Hithere I agree it doesn't work in all cases, I think it has more chance with someone elderly who has trouble hiding their behaviour from others.

My mother just tried harder to hurt me and used other family members to either get information or to manipulate reality to make me sound like a bad person.

I hadn't realised she had been doing that for a long time so was very shocked in situations to find people angry with me for things I either hadn't said or done or things that she had actually said or done. There were even times when we had phone conversations that she would be saying things that had no relevance to what I was saying or telling me what I thought until I'd get angry and shout at her. People were listening, it took me years to understand and work it out.

When I estranged that then cemented in their minds that I was a bad daughter who turned her back on the poor mother I treated terribly.

She was too sly for grey rock, not an intelligent woman but years of practice manipulating people and twisting things, she did and still has gotten away with hiding the fact she abused her own daughter.

Not only did she get away with it, she has my families sympathy and attention. I almost went back in the face of all that until it was let slip that if I did I would then be estranged.

So I would have gone back to my mother, made myself look guilty in everyone's eyes and then she would have turned around and estranged me, because I 'hurt' her too much.

The damage it does to their victims is hirrendous and they use it to get attention from others because they enjoy it and revel in pity and others telling them how wonderful they are.

There is no 'how to be an abuser' handbook but they all learn over time the same methods and tricks and what works to condition another to accept abuse. That is far easier to do picking one victim and playing innocent to everyone else.

Grey rocking works but it may not fix the problem of the relationship at all.

It protects the grey rocker but frustrates the grey rockee.

I have seen cases where the grey rockee complain they are feeling rejected, they do not know what is going on in the grey rocker's lives, they are given crumbs, they do not know why grey rockees are putting distance and the relationship changed.

So the relationship may not be saved by grey rocking

So much of this hits home with me. The relationship I had with my mother was toxic to say the least, although it took me many years to realise it. I was an only child - my parents had been married for 12 years before I was born, having been told they'd probably never had a family - and I think in that time, my mother had built up this image in her head of her 'perfect child'. I was not that 'perfect child', but it took me the best part of 40 years to realise that I could have created a cure of cancer or brought about world peace and it would still not have been enough for her. I should have walked away. I never could though.

I agree they do need to justify their actions but if you have to Grey rock them, that's the last resort.
You would of already tried everything else.

My mother was similar (not just in her later years) so I minimised contact. Really, I only made an effort for the sake of my father and siblings.

Emotionally, I detached myself - so really didn't care what she said or did - from quite a young age. My own children hardly saw her except at large family gatherings.

It's possible (and easier) to view the person as damaged and ill, try to be kind - and never take anything to heart. We never really know why people can be so cruel.

In her later years, I often laughed off her comments, so I didn't quite manage to be as kind as I intended.

Must say I can’t agree that if a person were toxic they would not need to justify their actions, if that what you meant March. That’s exactly what narcissists do, making you think you’ve misunderstood them or got the wrong end of the stick, belittling you until you wonder at your sanity. Breaking you down.
Whiff, it was to your credit that you continued to care for awful mil and fil, and understand it, as you couldn’t let your husband down, I don’t think I could if I’m truthful. I think I would have stepped back many years ago. Everyone does what they choose according to their conscience,

My husband had to use the phrase posters seen to like toxic parents. He didn't like them but always said he loved to them. They treated us and my family appallingly. But my husband never gave up on them. Therefore neither than I. His dad adored our children his mother took against our daughter when she was a baby but was all our son until he became older. His dad died when our children were 4 and 8 months. His mother got worse but still he wouldn't give up on her. When he was dieing he asked me to look after her which I did until she died. I hated my in laws with a vengeance but loved my husband more.

Even when she denied she ever had a son or grandchildren because I promised him I still looked after her. It was me not any of her family who sent 15 hours a day the last 2 days of her life by her hospital bedside . Because they couldn't do anything for her the doctors wanted to move her out of the room she had to herself into a home . I refused and the nurses backed me . I did that for someone I hated.

My son knows how his father's parents treated us and knows how his grandmother treated him and his sister and my family .

It's ironic he is treating me like they did. Luckily had zero contact since August last year. All the lies he wrote in his email and letter are echos of them. Seems he and his wife have turned into my in laws.

And yet I am branded the bad mother, mother in law and grandmother.

The Grey Rock method sounds excellent. I would love to pass this on to a friend of a dd, whose mother certainly strikes me as toxic - constantly belittling her, calling her thick, ruining her relationships by being scathing about every nice bloke she ever had, not to mention being horribly rude to them in person. In the past she’s been vile to my own dds, too.

Now long grown up, the dd can’t seem to keep away, or even cut down contact - it’s as if there are invisible cords, endlessly pulling her back.

And I don’t know why someone always has to suggest that such a person is ‘unwell’. Some people just are unpleasant or downright nasty.

As for Allsorts saying that we have a responsibility to our parents, no matter how unpleasant they may be, I would say it surely comes down to ‘Do as you would be done by.’ Or, as my DM was fond of saying, ‘You reap what you sow.’

But I might add that although I have a very good relationship with dds, there is no way I ever want or expect them to look after me in old age. I have told them as much very firmly, and have also made a point of it in my Health and Welfare Power of Attorney.