Child estranges one gradparent

OP

A cancer diagnosis, especially in a child, is devastating

However, your wife addressing her PTSD does not erase what happened during those 9 years - the plate is still broken.

He needs to heal at his own speed, with unknown timetable

Essendon: I am so sorry for your loss and the struggles of your family. I am hopeful that your son does the same work that your wife has done in order to heal and you can all move forward as a family.

Have you spoken to him about his mental health and anxiety and sought a way forward with him that includes his mother?

Thank you for your kind responses. My wife had a traumatic childhood with an alcoholic violent father. When our daughter was diagnosed with Leukaemia we went through a 3 year battle that ended with us turning off life support. She was 9. My wife was diagnosed with complex ptsd 6 years after our daughter died. This period before diagnosis was extremely difficult, however once my wife found out the diagnosis she was diligent with seeing a psychologist for many years. Also my behaviour gradually deteriorated as l wasn't able to grieve and l used dysfunctional behaviors to cover the pain. We have 4 sons who have all been impacted in some form. My son who has estranged his mother suffers from major anxiety especially around his mother, so l can understand his decision but my wife has done the work, so it's very sad. We are trying to piece the family together.
Essendon

OnwardandUpward

Yes, the very fact that its being discussed here shows how uncomfortable Essendon is.

If you are in an equal relationship with someone it would be very hard if someone else does not treat your spouse well or inclusively. I would be uncomfortable with leaving my spouse out, too.

Without knowing what the lady has said or done, makes it hard to know what to suggest, I'm struggling to see the sons POV without these facts. I'm sure he hs good reason, but dont know for certain. I can only answer the question from a married person;s viewoint.

I think the problem here is that people are looking for justification for the estrangement in order to form an opinion to advise the OP.

Any of us could say what we would do based on our own experiences. But it is all irrelevant. Really what the op needs is support with the fact that his family is hurting and understanding of his enormous grief of the fact that both his wife and son are hurting which in turn affect him and his grandson.

My experience allows me to say I know how it feels loosing my dad after my moms behavior and your experience allows you to know how how it feels to lose a child and rely on your husband for support.

Both experiences suck to be honest, putting it mildly. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and if my experience can help the OP then I am thankful for that.

victim
Also found in: Thesaurus, Medical, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
Related to victim: Victim of crime
vic·tim (vĭk′tĭm)
n.
1. One who is harmed or killed by another, especially by someone committing a criminal or unlawful act: a victim of a mugging.
2. A living creature slain and offered as a sacrifice during a religious rite.
3. One who is harmed by or made to suffer under a circumstance or condition: victims of war; victims of an epidemic; victims of poverty.
4. A person who is tricked, swindled, or taken advantage of: the victim of a cruel hoax.

The OP, his wife and his son are all victims of a circumstance which has caused them harm. Being a victim does not always have to be in cases of cruel and unjust treatment. So yes, it is relevant to say that everyone in this scenario is a victim. Because they are.

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"My situation with my m.i.l. is irrelevant. This is about a father being able to see his son and GC while his wife is excluded from any contact."

Actually, this is post about a father trying to make a very difficult decision that will affect the rest of his life. Every single person in this family is in a rather bad situation, through no fault of their own.

Neither of our scenarios are relevant to the OP, though I explained mine because I felt it was similar enough to his scenario to support the fact that I suggested what the possible impact will be on his relationship with his son and grandson.

The OP asked and I was honest about what impact a similar decision had on my relationship with my father. A scenario that could in fact become true the OP's case as well.

I agree that this whole scenario is likely to be unsustainable, which is why I suggest the OP look at every possible consequence of his decision.

Yes, the very fact that its being discussed here shows how uncomfortable Essendon is.

If you are in an equal relationship with someone it would be very hard if someone else does not treat your spouse well or inclusively. I would be uncomfortable with leaving my spouse out, too.

Without knowing what the lady has said or done, makes it hard to know what to suggest, I'm struggling to see the sons POV without these facts. I'm sure he hs good reason, but dont know for certain. I can only answer the question from a married person;s viewoint.

I understand that you were talking about your personal experience of an abusive mother freedom and that your father did nothing to protect you. However, there is nothing in the OP to suggest that this was the case here.

You posted "..... which led to undesirable behaviour which in turn victimised son". IMO your use of the word victimised is inappropriate as it means someone being singled out for cruel or unjust treatment. We don't know that the son was singled out do we so IMO it is wrong to make this assumption.

My situation with my m.i.l. is irrelevant. This is about a father being able to see his son and GC while his wife is excluded from any contact.

Too many assumptions are being made here. Janejudge you have posted about not having to take on the responsibility for a parents grief, and that as the son is not the parent, he shouldn't have to act like one. Where has it been said that either of these things has happened here?

I know that where there is estrangement, maintaining relationships with some family members and not others is often the case and doable Bibbity. That said, having a relationship with only one parent when the parents are married to one another is fraught with difficulties and the potential damage that may be caused to the parents relationship should not be underestimated and should IMO be very carefully considered by all parties.

From the OP "...... it is extremely difficult for my wife knowing I am seeing them. I am struggling with it also. What to do?" It looks as if the current arrangement is not working doesn't it and in all probability will be unsustainable.

"I tried for years to get her to see how her behavior affected me."

I should have said here how her behavior affected our relationship. Because this isn't just about me, it is about her too. She too has lost out on healthy relationships. No one wins in estrangement.

Fault and responsibility aren't the same thing unless people make no attempt to heal themselves when they know there is an issue

Absolutely this!

My mother is not at fault for the way she is because she was abused as a child. She is a victim just as I am. But she has the responsibility to get herself help for that, which she chose not to. That is why I estranged her. Not because of the conflict itself but because of her lack of taking responsibility for the conflict or making any effort to change her behavior. I tried for years to get her to see how her behavior affected me.

We have no idea if the OP's wife has gotten the care she needs for the complex PTSD, or the son for his either honestly. He should be getting help as well. Hopefully they both have and the OP can help mother and son can reunite when the time is right.

To the original question though, should I stop seeing my son/grandson. All I can say, which I tried to in my first post, is how I felt when my own father did not make an effort to have a relationship with me despite the conflict with my mother left me feeling like an orphan.

My mother is a damaged soul and I feel empathy for her as I have been trying to learn more about the reasons, my father had a choice. I have much less empathy for him. He made a choice and that forever changed the way I see him.

Of course this is MY experience. I can only offer my viewpoint from here. I also feel that my story and the OP's son's story have similarities. Everyone in both cases are victims, including the OP.

I think my viewpoint would be very different if I was estranged by a child and had done nothing wrong. Comparing the two completely different scenarios are like apples and oranges.

Trauma wasn't my fault, but if I don't heal then that is my responsibility. If having depression and anxiety has impacted my children that is my responsibility.

Fault and responsibility aren't the same thing unless people make no attempt to heal themselves when they know there is an issue

It must be a massive trauma to lose a sibling in an untimely manner and then become estranged from your parents and have to take on the responsibility for their grief. The son wasn't the parent in the relationship and he shouldn't have been expected to act as one.

Also I am on many Facebook pages of estranged children and D/Sin laws and many are able to maintain relationships with other family members while the estrangement of one individual continues.

We don't know Smileless.
But her actions at that time do not exempt her from what may be happening now.
He Son may forgive her and understand she was not in the right frame of mind. But he may not forget and as a result of her actions he and his family can no longer continue a relationship with her.
As I said this is what happened to us.

So in none of that have the father or children or father and son had any damage to their bonds.
I am a married woman to a man I am completely in love with. But I am an individual with my own independent relationships. Including that with my children.

Smileless I think you misread my comment. I was speaking about MY father when I spoke about allowing abuse. That is what he did my whole life. The comment he made about me putting up with her to keep the peace was made just last month. I agree that is unkind and unhelpful of my father to do.

I never said the OP's wife was abusive. I said there was conflict (due to the death of a beloved child and sister) that both the son and OP's wife were victim to which led to undesirable behavior that the son felt he needed to protect himself from.

See here:
"In this case, both the estranger and estranged are victims of events that caused the conflict"
and

"In the OP's case, the partner's experience of loosing a child, understandably, led to undesirable behavior which in turn victimized son."

Both the son and the mother were victims when their beloved child and sister died. It is in black and white in the OP. The mother's behavior created more conflict, forcing her son to make a choice to estrange. I can not see how anyone would NOT see that the son has been victimized, first in losing his sister and then in losing his mother. And now, the possibility of losing his father.

I understand that why you would feel betrayed if Mr. S had contact and a relationship with your ES and GC. You are estranged through no fault of your own. However, in my case and the OP's case, we are estranged due to the behavior of our mothers. That is a wound that can not be comprehended unless one experiences it first hand, just like being estranged for no fault of your own is a wound that can not be comprehended unless you experience it first hand, as you always say.

You chose to allow your MIL to have a relationship with her GC when you two did not get along because you believe that children have the right to know loving grandparents. Why wouldn't the OP's grandchildren not be allowed that same right?

I hope that, by continuing his relationship with his son and gc, the OP is able to help facilitate the healing of the relationship of mother and son for the future so that Grandchild has a lifelong relationship with BOTH grandparents.

I agree Bibbity no reason to punish the children

Mum just needs to take the right steps to be back in her sons life hopefully

Has the mother "done anything wrong" by developing complex ptsd Bibbity?

But how can the Grandchildren have a loving and close bond with their Grandfather without him being present?
They haven't done anything wrong. So why should they miss out?

that should have been 'resulted in her victimising their son'.

I completely agree Onward.

Suggesting the OP maintains contact with his son but refrains from visiting him and his child is hardly taking his wife's side Casdon. It's maintaining the relationship in a way that is sensitive to the situation with his wife.

I also hope that the is OP's wife has access to the help she needs Lolo however, I honestly don't see how the OP visiting with his son and GC can possibly be helping her recovery, quite the opposite I would have thought.

No one is suggesting the OP choose between his wife and his child freedom, and there has certainly been no information given that would even suggest that his wife's illness following the death of their D, resulted in their victimising her son.

I really don't see how you have managed to jump to that conclusion based on the little information supplied by the OP.

Understandably, his mothers inability to process her loss, and her subsequent mental health problems will have affected him, that is however a far cry from deliberately abusive behaviour.

If the OP does decide to withdraw his visits but keep in touch with his son by other means, I don't see how anyone could possibly regard that as him standing by and letting his wife abuse their son.

IMO that is a very unhelpful and unnecessary comment to make.

This scenario is different then a scenario where a parent is estranged through no fault of their own. In this case, both the estranger and estranged are victims of events that caused the conflict. It is the same as in my case of estrangement.

My mothers abuse led to her abuse of me. In this case, we are both victims. In the OP's case, the partner's experience of loosing a child, understandably, led to undesirable behavior which in turn victimized son. Both parties are victims.

In both cases, the person estranging (me and the OP's son) did so because they felt they needed to protect themselves. Understandable.

Here are the differences in our scenarios though.

My dad stood by my mom and never did anything to stand up for his children, even tough he knew her behavior was abusive. Even now, he tells me to just put up with her abuse because it is the easiest route for him. I am sure you can guess my feelings about having a relationship with him.

In the OP, dad is trying to support both his child and his wife by standing by them both. Why should he have to give up his relationship with his child and grandchildren? How is that beneficial to the Grandchild? Based on posts I have seen on these threads for years, it is thought that it is never beneficial to deprive a grandchild the right to a relationship with a loving grandparent unless there are clear cases of abuse. Why is this case any different?

If the OP chose between his wife and his child, it would ruin his relationship with his child EVEN IF wife and son resolve the estrangement. No matter what, son is always going to look at dad as the person who did not champion him while he lost his sister, then his mother. Son will look at a Grandparent who chose not to have a relationship with his Grandson.

I am thankful every day that my Grandmother always chose not to take my mother's side in our estrangement out of duty or loyalty to my mom. I know how I would feel if she had.

Only the OP can decide what to do, but I hope that sharing my experience will offer a different viewpoint.

Smileless - “ She has lost her D, as has the OP, and their son has lost his sister. She was "eventually diagnosed with complex ptsd" which would explain the behaviour that so has sadly pushed her son away. Should she effectively be punished for something that was out of her control?”

This is why it is hugely important to know if this poor lady has done the work required to help herself. Receiving a diagnosis is one thing, actually acting on that to resolve the issues it causes is something else entirely. Although the behaviour was caused by the PTSD, and provides context it doesn’t actually mean that whatever was said or done will hurt any less for her son. I sincerely hope this lady has accessed all the help she needs. Hopefully having a line of communication open via OP may be a way to slowly rebuild a relationship.

Haven’t you distorted what OP said OnwardandUpward? It was his wife’s handling of their daughter’s death that he identifies was the issue, not his son’s? It does surprise me that posters automatically take his wife’s part in this. We need more information about what exactly happened before jumping to conclusions.

So sorry about the death of your daughter Essendon and for the way your son is handling it.

My personal feeling is that a married couple or set of parents come as a pair. Anything other than that is divisive and may cause long term problems. I would talk to your son and try to have mediation or counselling to bring them together.

It's not fair of your son to try and divide you. I think the only way forwards is communication with your wife to find out how she feels and what she wants and with your son to offer family therapy.

But again. If her actions have caused this regardless of the reason it is not on others to suffer further losses. That would be for her to further manage in the therapy she is hopefully receiving.

I wasn't referring to choosing, the OP can keep in touch with their son without going to visit him and the GC. It must be very upsetting for his wife and as a married man and father himself, he must realise his father is being torn between his wife, his son and his GC.

There is no suggestion from the OP that his wife would try to force him to take her side, and even if she had, to say that is "very selfish and self centred" is a very easy judgement to make when you have no idea what it is like to be unable to see your AC and GC because of estrangement.

It would be just as wrong to say that about the son who is excluding his mother and potentially creating a rift between his parents, or the OP who is seeing his son and GC despite knowing how extremely difficult it is for his wife.

He's in a very difficult position for which he and his son must take some responsibility.

She has lost her D, as has the OP, and their son has lost his sister. She was "eventually diagnosed with complex ptsd" which would explain the behaviour that so has sadly pushed her son away. Should she effectively be punished for something that was out of her control?

Everyone's needs need to be considered here and IMO explaining that you cannot continue to visit with your son and GC out of concern for your wife, if that is the decision you make Essendon, is not unreasonable. There are other ways to maintain contact which would have less of an impact on your wife.