Theoretical rather than a support thread

I never met any of my grandparents.

My maternal nan died young and my mother kept me away from her father. Paternal grandparents were abusive.

My Dad is a wonderful grandfather though, we just don't get to see him as much as we would like

My paternal grandparents were wonderful thankfully. I'm trying to emulate their grandparenting with my DGS.

Namsnanny
I did, I think we spent a lot of time with them, my granny was totally different to my mum, but they were very close.
Looking back, I don’t think my mum coped very well with us, I spent lots of time with my dad as well

Sara1954 did you have a positive relationship with any of your gp?

On reflection, it must have been quite a strain for you, trying to re establish a relationship with your Father and bringing up a young family. Lots of conflicting emotions.
I'm glad for you the whole thing is over with.

I honestly believe that just because you are a blood relative to someone, doesn’t mean there has to be a strong bond, or any misplaced sense of duty.

My mother gave birth to me, that doesn’t mean I have to pay for it for my whole life.

We don’t like one another, I’ve admitted it, she would rather pretend it’s all down to me to save face.

I’m beyond caring.

Interestingly, lots of us on the estrangement threads have talked of a positive and loving relationship with at least one grandparent, Gagajo.
I'm so glad I was one of them. My paternal GM was my idea of perfection as a child ?

My dad was just absent really. From the age of 11 on, I had no contact with him. He tried to reestablish contact when I was a young mum, and I went along with it for a while, but there was no emotion there. And it ended up being me that had to make the effort to stay in touch, so I stopped bothering, and never heard from him again. 25 years later now and I'm indifferent to him.

Other estrangements in my life have hurt, but the one with my dad is too old. I'm indifferent to it and to him now. Well, he isn't my dad really and never has been. His father, my GF, was a better dad to me than my bio dad.

Allsorts I'm glad your parents gave you love and confidence. It's all you need really and gives you the tools for life. I don't wish to take over the thread but if you don't get it, life can be very difficult.
Just to add, my father came from a lovely family. They were farmers in rural Ireland. He came over here at 16, ever contacted his family again. In later life, I knew his sisters. They were lovely and 'homely' and said that his home life was nice, although poor. They said he broke his mother's heart.
I am sceptical about the abusers go on to abuse. Why would you put another child through that? Still, I am no expert. I just lived it.

You felt morally responsible as he was your father, to your credit Kate. I don’t know how I would react, possibly walk away and not see him, I couldn’t forgive anyone for hurting my mother, I know that. My parents were fantastic and I know I have so much to be thankful for. They gave me confidence and love. It is wicked how your father treated you, he was probably treated the same when young and was learned behaviour but everyone knows right from wrong so there no excuse in my book. I just hope all those with such a dreadful start in life somehow get to know their true worth, it says a lot you cared for him though when he was old.

Gagajo. I found your post interesting. You say your father was a
s**t dad. My father was horrible. He was a drunk, beat my mother, beat me up once, beat my sister so badly her hair was falling out. He was a serial womaniser. He sometimes worked, sometimes didn't. Sometimes went straight from work on Friday pay day to the pub, didn't come home until Monday having spent all his wages leaving my mother having no money to feed 7 children
He did many other things which I won't mention here.
He drove my mother to an early
grave.

Yet for some bizarre reason we always kept in touch with him and looked after him when he was 'on his uppers' or unwell. I've never understood it really.

Gagajo I found the subject of your post really interesting and thought provoking. I have to admit there have been no estrangements in my own family so I can’t offer any personal experience. However, my first thought was that there may well be ‘a pattern’ within families as the more often it happens the less effort family members may make to ensure the situation isn’t repeated. But having read what posters have said it seems that there are many variable factors which contribute to this happening. I shall continue to read with interest.

I agree Cafeaulait

But with how my mum thinks, me coming back to the relationship would be a declaration of her innocence then lots of sympathy from people that she was too hurt to carry on the relationship....

I hope she does move on really and searches for whatever it is that makes her happy in life that doesn't involve trying to hurt me

VioletSky, I also think people can, over time, move to a point where they have moved on from the estranged and just don't want to open that door again.

If my MIL were to make contact I would hear her out with caution. I'm not sure her son would be quite as open and obviously I'd be guided by his wishes there. If we decided to leave it alone it wouldn't be a revenge estrangement right back. It would just be because she made her choice and the consequence might be that she can't just re-engage when she feels like it. We have a lot to cope with right now and I'm not sure the emotional energy required to cope with that situation is there. That might hinge on what she has to say.

There has been a recurring theme in what my mother sends and what my brother has said:

If I were to apologise for my awful behaviour in estranging, it might not be enough. They may not forgive meamd there may not be a relationship.

Which seems to mean, as punishment for doing the awful estranging I would be estranged if I were to go back.

Obviously I estranged due to behaviours they will not be accountable for so it's illogical to say what I did was worse.

It's also illogical to say I am not justified but they would be for the exact same action.

It also highlights what I said previously in that, I estranged to protect and she does it to punish.

To estrange for some people is a way not to engage in difficult conversations. Easier to do your own thing without any questions or responsibility to that person you can well do without. As a child you pick up on that behaviour, that it is acceptable to treat close family as if they don’t matter. What goes round comes round. If you are the unfortunate victim of it, having no previous experience it is shattering, it does untold damage. As a victim I now realise I handled it all wrong, I should have just walked away, but you think you have done something wrong and keep reaching out.,it is very cruel.

I only know one family where estrangement has occurred and it would seem to be learned behaviour. The matriarch of the family is very controlling and she and her daughter have a love-hate relationship; can't seem to leave each other alone to the extent of the daughter trying to persuade her to live with her, despite resenting her interference. Now the same has happened with the granddaughter, a model girl who followed her mother's instructions. advice for school, university and successful career until she broke the mould and made a lesbian marriage. The wife was accepted, but identified the amount of control being exerted, particularly when children arrived, so they deviated from the planned path, moved away and are currently estranged from mother.

The estranged mother cannot see how much she tries to control her daughter's life and finds it impossible to accept that she is able to conduct her career, marriage and child-rearing successfully without interference.
I don't think the mother is narcissistic; it is more a case of wanting her daughter to seize all the opportunities she missed and follow the career she wanted, without allowing her to make her own decisions.
The granddaughter, wife and grandmother, incidentally, get on extremely well together.
Hopefully it will resolve itself; the granddaughter is extremely sensible and balanced.

Yes Zoejory your right, it is a great question.
I'm doing an on line course in human behavioral biology at the moment. It would seem there is little evidence for a family genetic response to this, or any other human situation.
Whilst a gene may have the ability to perform any such function, there are a myriad of hormones and chemical switches that have to be in place to encourage that particular out come. All of which are influenced arbitrarily, by environmental factors.
I started this course as a distraction, and precisely to try to understand a little bit more why this happens.
But I dont think I shall ever come to terms with it.

All my family seem to have got estranged relatives.

My grandfather never spoke to his sister after learning that his mother had left all her worldly goods to her. The sister had cared for the mother for years. My grandfather had financed them. He just felt it desperately unfair to have been left out of the will and he never spoke to his sister again.

When I was about 15 we all went to USA on holiday. Grandparents, parents and siblings. My grandfather suddenly realised that if the plane went down everything would go to his sister so he changed his will the day before we flew off. Thankfully we survived

My husband very rarely is in contact with any of his family . No idea how it happened, no ill feeling or argument they just drifted apart and that was that

I don't communicate much with my sister. We were enemies when growing up. Now we will be civil if we meet at funerals or weddings but that's about it. I don't think she ever forgave me for having children when she couldn't, either. Chalk and cheese.

I didn't talk to my father much. Loathed him when I was a child and we never got a relationship going. Chalk and cheese again.

So that was a great question Gagajo. I've often wondered it myself.

And reading this post back I sound like a proper madam!

It might be - if the dysfunction is not addressed and it passes to next generation

So many factors in this complex situation

I think it can be. My MIL estranged us. I know she was estranged from another family member and, according to my husband, always had different people she wasn't talking to at one time or other.

Thankfully, this has never happened in our family; but a family we were close to had such a pattern over 4 generations that we knew of. My parents, who were inveterate 'helpers' tried to talk to the ones they were close to, and 'fix things' but the pattern was deep, and it felt like the people involved were so stuck in the 'pattern' that they didn't want to fix it.
Once I became an adult, I rather felt that this family needed professional help, but of course, before that, they needed the willingness to try.
The lovely little boys that I babysat for as a teenager have not responded to me for some years. I understand that they lead quite solitary and rather sad lives, but they have not had children of their own, so in that respect, the cycle has broken.

I think, like anything, poor communication skills and the like can be passed on from generation to generation, which can in turn be associated with estrangement.

My extended family is riddled with estrangement. My grandmother was estranged with almost all her children at some point or another. One of my aunts was estranged from all her children until death. But my own mother was never estranged from anyone other than her mother, which she resolved while living. And no one in her line ever experienced it. As an outsider, it was easy to see the bad communication skills playing a role. And those who got help, resolved their issues.

So I don’t think it has to be a pattern, if people are willing to self reflect and get help from professionals.

What do some of you think to the theory that estrangement can become a family pattern?

Probably by default it becomes a pattern - if not declared estrangement then certainly a fracture of usual family ties and relationships.

Some 40 years a family member and his wife became Jehovah's Witnesses and they estranged themselves from the family, hence the rest of us had little or no contact with them or their children. Then about 10 years ago it seems they gave that up and we started to hear from them again. Unfortunately too many decades had passed for any meaningful relationship to develop, so we are all basically strangers to each other, only sending Xmas cards, the odd WhatsApp, etc. They all now live abroad.

Coincidentally, yesterday I heard of the death of my late mother's younger half-brother who I never knowingly met. My mother didn't have close relationships with her siblings, apart from her sister who died young, because their father was a tyrant and the boys left home early and seem to have disappeared, hardly to be seen again.