Repairing estrangement

Yes, you and I are trying to convey the same message Madgran.

Questions are one thing, suggesting that someone is being at best economical with the truth is completely different.

I think there is a difference between "being questioned" and "accepting the truth of what has been told". And how the questioning is done makes a significant difference too.

To me discussion forums can inform, support, provide constructive criticism, question constructively, extend thinking, enable information sharing and so much more.

I'm not sure everyone on forums considers the "best interests" of other posters but I do see that many try to.

People question me all the time, I don't mind too much because it makes me think about it and thinking about it helps me because those answers matter in this sort of situation.

Which is why you will see me patiently answer that sort of question, even when it's very obvious those questions come from a person who does not have my best interests at heart.

If I was going to throw a wobbly every time someone questions my part in my estrangement then I'm not sure what the point of being here on an open discussion forum even is.

I just wish that we could have these discussions "without getting into conflict about 'the truth' Iam. Without making some feel that they are being less than honest, that they 'must have done something', that they must know why this has happened, even though it's obvious from what they post that they just don't know.

Yes Smileless - they know what they have been told but that doesn't necessarily equate with knowing why it has happened within the bigger picture, as I referred to earlier.

It's not that difficult surely, to accept the truth of what we are told and to base any responses on that alone.

One would think not!

The painful and awful reality is that some people simply don't want resolution. Our ES made it quite clear that mediation would never happen, before it was ever suggested.

I just wish that we could have these discussions "without getting into conflict about 'the truth' Iam. Without making some feel that they are being less than honest, that they 'must have done something', that they must know why this has happened, even though it's obvious from what they post that they just don't know.

We have the anonymity here on GN that our 'names' provide but it still takes courage to open up, to share what for many is the most traumatic and devastating part of their lives. Whether the poster is the one who estranged or has been estranged.

It's not that difficult surely, to accept the truth of what we are told and to base any responses on that alone.

Yes everything really is an individuals choice to make. And choices can bring benefit or can bring pain/loss....or both.

People are just different Madgran, some think therapy or counselling is just nonsense, which is a shame but that's their choice to make

I can understand a parent receiving false allegations being hurt and angry but it's my situation that has taught me how differently I would deal with that and that's why my advice is as it is.

That makes sense Violet And you offered joint counselling which was appropriate, so her loss! I agree your mother's response does not make sense really. Your offer seems a valid attempt to bring about resolution, on the basis of the information you have given

In the same way, when EPs offer joint counselling and it is rejected outright, as has been described in the past on other threads by some posters, there is no way of knowing whether that rejection is valid or not as every case is different and not always enough information is available .

a minefield if variations on a theme sadly
Such a good way of summarising the difficulties that arise when discussing estrangement.
False allegations are thankfully rare but they do happen, leaving chaos, devastation and pain that become part of the innocent alleged perpetrators life.
One of the themes of gransnet estrangement threads is that minefield of variations on a theme. We have estranged parents and estranged adult children struggling to discuss their loss and pain without getting into conflict about ‘the truth’

The example you gave of a theft of a ring is a good one Madgran. Being accused of the theft being given as a reason for estrangement has no foundation in fact or reality, if the person accused of the theft is innocent.

So, that person is left wondering not only why the have been estranged but why they've been falsely accused.

When I gave my reasons, or a better discription would be, examples of behaviours that were hurting me, just one was directly challenged. I was able to look at that one situation and say that yes, I could have that wrong and let it go.

All the other reasons/examples I was told were "complete fantasy". There was no discussion, she wasn't able to give me her version of events or talk to me about it.

Then things were quickly turned around on me and things I did as an actual child which, I know must have been upsetting and I did apologise. but I was a primary school aged child who was also being abused by a grandparent. Her answer to that was to infer I'd made that situation up too.

It very nearly broke me.

Now just for arguments sake, if I am remembering things and situations that have clearly damaged me that aren't true, how does the way my mother reacted to that make any logical sense? Especially when I offered joint counselling and she laughed in my face?

Thank goodness I went and sought help for myself.

I can understand a parent receiving false allegations being hurt and angry but it's my situation that has taught me how differently I would deal with that and that's why my advice is as it is.

Lolo what you say makes sense. However I think there is a difference between "knowing that an estrangement has happened because of something described" and "accepting that that particular thing happened" if you don't believe it did.

I am not specifically referring to the examples you gave above; more to the OP saying "I was accused of things I hadn’t done but obviously she sees it differently". So yes, the OP does know what caused the estrangement but does not accept that that particular thing happened. She does however accept that her daughter sees it differently, and acknowledges that she * must have done something*. She appears to want to talk about it and try to resolve the situation as Violet said would be her own way forward but that opportunity has gone for whatever reason which we cannot be clear about.

There is also a difference I think between the type of examples that you gave regarding yourself and your MIL and specific accusations eg of theft (a case on here a while ago where a mother was accused of stealing her DILs ring and this caused estrangement.) In the second example the mother knows 100% whether she stole the ring or not, and if she didn't she isn't going to apologise for it because she knows it is a false accusation.

A Minefield of variations on a theme sadly.

I agree that "false or not" reasons given are the reasons for the estrangement but will say again, if the reasons given are false then the person being estranged does not know why they have been.

Lolo81
When I finally estranged my mother it must have seemed trivial in the extreme to everyone.
But she was being unreasonable and and selfish, all what about me, me, me.
She also knew we were having a lot of problems at home, which had meant we had to spend some time in an hotel, everything was chaos, but it was still all about her.

I don’t doubt for a second that OP is telling the truth as she remembers it that she has been falsely accused. But I do stand by the fact that false or not - those accusations are why she has been estranged. She can choose to accept that or not but she has been told why. It’s that old saying there’s 3 sides to a story - mines, yours and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
That’s the “truth” as far as the person estranging is concerned - that’s their truth, their recollection, their reason.
So to go back to the original “i don’t know what I did” - you do know, you just don’t accept it or think it’s a good enough reason. And that’s normal and rational, but from the other side - there’s no conspiracy, just because someone refuses to accept the reasons given or their validity doesn’t negate that those are in fact the reasons for the person who has had enough.
Getting stuck on “valid reasons” although I understand the need to justify the situation, is the issue. Who decides what’s valid? In a situation like this - it’s the person who walks away. It can be a big blow up, abuse, or like in my case over the daftest issue (yet again ignoring dietary issues for my son - giving him liquorice).
Example - I wholeheartedly believe that you insulted me, you’ve done it before and every time I see you I feel insulted. So I’m just not going to see you anymore.
You say, I’ve never insulted you, i have no idea what you mean - this is ridiculous.
These are feelings - you can’t tell me that you didn’t hurt my feelings because they’re my feelings. My truth here is that you’re nasty, your truth is that I’m a liar.
If I decide I’m done having my feelings hurt and cut you off that’s valid for me. You deny it happened so it’s not a valid reason for you - but you cannot deny you know the reason. You don’t agree, don’t accept but it doesn’t change the fact that I have explained from my perspective why I am done.

It doesn't make sense to me either.

Reasons have been given, if I didn't agree with those reasons I would need to acknowledge them to have the difficult conversation about why my child thought that. I'd need to listen to them. As much as recollections of events can vary, how would I know whose was right of we both believed differently? Maybe the truth would be somewhere in the middle but if I outright denied them or said my AC was lying that dialogue would be gone and so would hope

Indeed Iam of course people's recollections may differ but there has to be some kernel of truth/fact in that recollection because without that, it isn't a recollection, it's a lie.

It truly is depressingly familiar ground. People’s recollections of events may differ but it’s also important to acknowledge that some people lie.

TBF Lolo Allsorts (the OP) has, as you have said yourself said that she had been accused of doing something she hadn't done.

Being falsely accused of behaviour, and having that false accusation given as a reason for estrangement, is not being told why you've been estranged is it.

If you don't accept something you have been accused of because it never happened, how on earth can that be viewed as an invalidation? If the person estranging has what they consider to be valid reasons for their decision, then why not say so? Why 'make something up' or refuse to give a reason(s).

Once again it appears that we are going over familiar, and unhelpful ground where an EP who says they don't know why they've been estranged is having it suggested they are not telling the truth.

It looks as if you had a difficult relationship with your m.i.l. leaving you with no choice but to estrange for the sake of your own mental health.

I would be very upset if anyone responded to your post with questioning disbelief.

Having read and commented on several estrangement threads here, I think the reason that some commenters question the validity of “I don’t know what I did to become estranged” is because of what the OP actually posts. So to use this OP as an example - the very first post states outright that they have been accused of doing things they didn’t do. Then goes on to say - but I don’t know what I did.

Just because the OP’s recollection of events doesn’t match the reception from their family doesn’t negate the fact that they do in fact know what the issue is. They may disagree and not accept that the allegations are true, they may challenge the recollection of events - but it doesn’t change the fact that they are aware of what the perceived actions have been.

This is a common thread I have seen on these posts. A poster is (whether true or not) has been accused of something and rather than accept that, because they don’t agree with it they then invalidate this as the “real reason”. It might not be a good enough reason to estrange for them, but it obviously is for their family member.
When I finally estranged my late MIL it was because my own mental health was being so badly affected by her. It had been death by a thousand papercuts for over a decade and I just couldn’t cope with it any more. The final incident was so trivial that taken alone I’m sure she and anyone else looking at that situation in isolation would have come to the conclusion that I was completely off my rocker, but it was cumulative for me. And I had told her many times over many years that I was struggling with her behaviour- she couldn’t change because she “didn’t do anything wrong and couldn’t understand” what my problem was. But she did know - she may have chosen (either consciously or unconsciously) to disagree with with me, totally invalidating what she’d been told hundreds of times in hundreds of ways by numerous people in her life.

That's terrible Janejudge especially as it reminds you of your estranged father's behaviour.

I wouldn't worry that because of your past, that somehow makes you identifiable as a victim. You wont be the only one targeted by this odious individual, there could well be others in your workplace who like you, are "pretending everything is ok when it really, really isn't".

Have you spoken to anyone about this? Bullies often make the mistake of thinking that others, apart from those they are victimising, don't see what's going on, but you may be surprised at how many have witnessed his behaviour toward you, even though they haven't mentioned it.

If you can find the courage to speak out about this, I'm certain that you'll find this to be the case.

I hope you'll be able to address this and put a stop to it. You did so with your father by estranging him, I'm sure you can do it again.

That’s what I meant, DiamondLily.

I'm so sorry Janejudge

I think bullies, whether covert or overt all easily recognise a person who has had those buttons installed in childhood. They recognise a person who they can easily use as a scapegoat for all their needs.

The worst part is, trying to point out their bad behaviour will only lead to them crying victim and twisting everything into knots. This often ends up making you look bad, the real victim.

You know what he is, you can become stronger. You have so much he doesn't, a real and genuine happy life. Don't let him hurt you any more.

I have realised part of the reason I am accepting of bullying within my workplace is that I have reverted to type and I am pretending everything is ok when it really, really isn't. I am being bullied by an aggressive man who shows the same traits as my estranged Father. Behaviours are ingrained

Is it wrong to point out to someone that there are elements in their behaviour, the things they do and the way they treat others that point to possible characteristics they have that might explain why they have been estranged by a loved one?

If you see someone constantly putting down, harassing or ridiculing someone who may come across as weaker or more sensitive and available to take their own problems out on unfairly, is it wrong to point that out?

Is it wrong to point out that there is no justification for that, even if sometimes someone else's truths are hard to hear if there is an element to what they say that makes past behaviour highlighted as wrong so they must be silenced by any means available.

This is why my mother has lost so many friendships over the years. Why she estranged others for periods of time, because they have questioned her behaviour, her narrative and her motives.

This is why people who remain in her life think awful things about me and why she would very carefully wind me up to public displays of anger at her so that she could point the finger and say "see".

She has surrounded herself with those who believe her behaviour is justified and her carefully created story of who I am and she knew exactly what to do and say to push my buttons.

The only way of repairing estrangement would destroy her entire life really wouldn't it so there was never anything I could do to fix that.