Repairing estrangement

Because some people are more anxious or sensitive or going through a stressful time etc they may be upset by things the other party would shrug off. Because the other party then refuses to apologise or try and change that behaviour perhaps the hurt party feels it is deliberate

I agree that may well be the case in some circumstances Violet. Within the context of societal changes as I talked about earlier then the chances of what you describe are probably increased.

I also think that "upset" is sometimes used as a lever to create a desired outcome for whatever reason.
In the case of the example mentioned earlier where estrangement has happened or is threatened because childcare is not offered, it doesn't seem to apply, for example.

Such a wide range of possibilities for cause and effect sadly.

I still think, that once you come to a certain point, maybe something happens or is said, then if you feel that no apology will ever be sufficient, and you’re just stuck in a really bad relationship, then it’s best to walk.

I have found it totally liberating, I have no desire to mend fences, I never want to talk to her again, on the other hand, I wish her no ill will,

I think I’m a better person now, she brought out the very worst in me, and I think it’s likely that I brought out the worst in her.

And that's a big problem Madgran as we know only too well and unfortunately for us and our ES and GC, that influence is definitely toxic.

Exhausting and frustrating. You feel as if you're going around in ever decreasing circles, getting no where and getting giddy in the process.

Accountability is of course important as is being able to apologise, but as has been addressed throughout this discussion, you have to know what you're being held responsible for. A sincere apology cannot be made without knowing this, and apologising for something you know you haven't done or said is meaningless.

But, a bit of honest conversation, respect and boundaries being set could solve all that, in healthy families

True! The problem is if one member of a "healthy" family is influenced by someone external to the "original healthy family" then that doesn't necessarily happen.

That is not to say that "influence" is always negative; its not! In some cases it is freeing. In others it is toxic!

Smileless I have experience of someone whose "go to" response is to walk away from every problem. Nothing ever gets resolved. It is exhausting to watch as they lurch from one hoo ha to another and I have given up advising (when asked to) because nothing ever changes!

This type of mismatched personalities or expectations is why I think it's always important to be accountable and apologise.

You can do that while keeping your boundaries intact.

Because some people are more anxious or sensitive or going through a stressful time etc they may be upset by things the other party would shrug off. Because the other party then refuses to apologise or try and change that behaviour perhaps the hurt party feels it is deliberate

That was our experience DiamondLily our closeness to our ES, mine in particular was the cause of jealousy but we'd never envisaged that that would end up with us losing our son and only GC. Especially as we'd made her so welcome and she seemed to be as fond of us, as we were of her.

A low threshold of tolerance is a good point Madgran and I don't think in every case that walking away is a last resort, I think in some instances it's to 'go too' response, especially when no explanation is given as to the reasons why.

It's understandable, depending on your own experience to think there must be something else, but that doesn't make it so in every estrangement scenario.

Madgran and Diamond
There is a lot is sense in what you both say.
Wise ladies.

I agree. There's not always abuse and denial underpinning estrangement.

It seems to happen for a variety of reasons, some of them being intolerance and impatience from the ACs.

Very often in laws have fractious relationships - MILs and DILs particularly. Some women really resent their partners being close to mum, and some mums find it hard that their sons have a new "number 1 woman" in their lives.

And, to be fair, some grandparents can be overbearing when grandchildren arrive - demanding me-time, alone-time, and generally throwing their weight around.

Some young parents can go OTT - visiting rules written out, rules set down etc.

But, a bit of honest conversation, respect and boundaries being set could solve all that, in healthy families.

Sara Yes I know someone very close to estrangement because of childcare not being available too. I also know someone walking on egg shells to avoid estrangement, linked to childcare.

I am not sure if there is "something else" in every case, I do think sometimes it is that low threshold of tolerance. But then again, the something else might in some cases just be an excuse being found for wanting to estrange ... for instance the DIL you know of who estranged might have been "looking for a "reason" if she didn't really want a relationship or just wanted the usefulness of childcare! And yes, influence from a partner can be a factor ... particularly if the partner is of a particular personality type, or has a difficult history etc which may or may not include estrangement.

I suppose the point is as every case is different with different factors (and possibly some similar factors) then it is easy to think there must be something else. I don't think there is a must be. Sometimes it really is just as it is seen.

Smileless2012

You haven't offended me Sara. This is such an emotive and painful issue for many isn't it and the reasons for estrangement are many and often complex.

Even not being willing or able to provide childcare for GC has been sited as a reason for being estranged or, produces a very real fear that estrangement will be the result if it isn't given.

If people will, or are prepared to estrange for the that reason, who knows what other reasons they may have.

I think most (normal) families have their flaky periods through life - different expectations not met, communication breaking down, and other non related stresses adding to the mix.

Sometimes, it all sorts itself out quickly, other times it takes longer.

I certainly know younger people that simply cannot be bothered with elderly parents, when they have families of their own - they consider their own lives are full, and don't want to be hassled with having to provide emotional or practical support to their parents. The in laws might also resent the partners parents, for whatever reason.

There are more than a few elderly people living near me, and they chat at times. Many appear bewildered that they appear to have been cast aside by their ACs.

No necessarily fully estranged, but they rarely see or hear from their children. I can't believe they were all abusive or even lousy parents, to be honest.

Same as on here - many estranged parents seem genuinely bewildered as to why everything seemed fine one minute, and then they receive communication cutting them off from the family.

It doesn't make much sense.

Diamond
I think most families accept that no one is perfect, and still rub along fairly well.
But for some families they become fractured beyond repair, I doubt anyone wants this, I don’t like my mother, but still spent years trying to please her.
Walking away is surely a last resort.

Sara1954

I’m with Violet on this one, you don’t have to have been abused to have had an unhappy childhood, for many of us it’s not a matter of getting rid of your mother because she’s a bit irritating, it’s generally for self preservation, or simply not being able to face any more.
My mother in law was very irritating, but she meant well, and we never had a cross word.
There are many ways to make a child feel unhappy, to feel ashamed, guilty, useless, abnormal, they don’t necessarily need a hand ever raised against them.

No, of course, childhood abuse doesn't just involve hitting.

It can be physical, sexual, emotions, neglect or a combination.

But, my post made it clear it wasn't about those that had survived childhood abuse - whatever the type of abuse.

Madgran
I actually know someone who refused full time childcare for her granddaughter, and was estranged by her daughter in law, so I know it happens.
I also know a lot of people who get extremely irritated by a relative, but because they love them, they plough on.
There has to be something else, don’t you think? Unless it pressure from a partner.

Sara I didn't think you were particularly referring to what I said. We have obviously read people's comments differently as I don't really see that anyone is saying parents are got rid of because they are "a bit irritating"! That is not how I read the comments.

I think estrangement happens for many reasons, and I do think sometimes social changes impact on relationships and how relationships are approached. Smileless example of a GP being unwilling/unable to provide childcare and estrangement being or threatened to be a consequence, is just one example. Taking that example, what causes that I wonder ... irritation?, anger?, selfishness?, entitlement, stress? a way out? straight blackmail? ..... who knows! I imagine the reasons when that happens are different in every case too.

You haven't offended me Sara. This is such an emotive and painful issue for many isn't it and the reasons for estrangement are many and often complex.

Even not being willing or able to provide childcare for GC has been sited as a reason for being estranged or, produces a very real fear that estrangement will be the result if it isn't given.

If people will, or are prepared to estrange for the that reason, who knows what other reasons they may have.

Smileless
Didn’t mean to offend you, I know your circumstances are different.
But generally, I don’t think people cast off their relatives because they are a bit annoying.

Madgran
That was how I read it, not from you.

I’m with Violet on this one, you don’t have to have been abused to have had an unhappy childhood, for many of us it’s not a matter of getting rid of your mother because she’s a bit irritating, it’s generally for self preservation, or simply not being able to face any more.

I'm not sure anyone was suggesting it was!

I agree Sara that "there are many ways to make a child feel unhappy, to feel ashamed, guilty, useless, abnormal, they don't necessarily need a hand ever raised against them", but not all EAC have ever been made to feel any of those things, but estrange their parents anyway.

I doubt anyone could ever say that their childhood was 100% happy.

I’m with Violet on this one, you don’t have to have been abused to have had an unhappy childhood, for many of us it’s not a matter of getting rid of your mother because she’s a bit irritating, it’s generally for self preservation, or simply not being able to face any more.
My mother in law was very irritating, but she meant well, and we never had a cross word.
There are many ways to make a child feel unhappy, to feel ashamed, guilty, useless, abnormal, they don’t necessarily need a hand ever raised against them.

Indeed Madgran. Social media has made it so easy to drag up something that was said or done years ago that can then be used against them, with no attempt to consider they were younger, or going through a particularly difficult/traumatic time in their lives.

Yes it is sad DiamondLily and IMO society is worse off.

Have there ever been normal, happy families? What is normal?
When did it become 'normal' to throw away people and relationships with relatives as you said, that you don't like very much?

Mr. S. and DS do that as well and two our DS is more than happy to mention are, I don't have to say what I'm thinking because it's written all over my face and, I wear my heart on my sleeve. Could be worse.

Coming at this from a slightly different angle my observation would be that there is possibly a much lower level of tolerance of any behaviours/foibles/human frailties than previously. This can be seen when someone loses their job/is "canceled" for a youthful misdemeanour/careless remark/"youthful joke" etc which is on social media for ever and comes back to haunt them 10/20 years later. So often there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of a youthful teenage mistake, or allowance that that person has grown up/changed etc...no tolerance/ empathy atall!! I don't mean serious stuff just teenage stuff!

In the same way I think that can SOMETIMES translate into the same intolerance, lack of understanding between family members and the extreme reaction of estrangement just like the extreme reaction of someone losing their job.

I am basically talking about apparent societal trends rather than any specific case but it is something I have been thinking about for a while.

Smileless2012

I've seen and heard it said many times DiamondLily that this throw away society is more than about goods, but about people and relationships.

Love for some, no longer seems to be enough to transcend the frailty and imperfections that we all carry.

Excellent post.

Sad really, and I don't think society is any happier for it.

At least my imperfections are always made clear - my children and DH make sure of that lol ?

I think there is always a reason, whether AC estrange an abusive family member, whether an AC is under the influence of an abusive other or there is some sort of mental health issues involved.

I don't see normal happy families just discarding each other and I don't think it's healthy for anyone to think we have become a society that throws each other away. It's very bleak.