Repairing estrangement

VioletSky

Gosh I don't see what you see Diamondlily

I don't see people discarding non abusive close family members and those happy family units stand out to me as someone who has never had one.

I don't see AC from non abusive homes commenting on books or podcasts or in self help places, they would probably be pulled up if they did.

I don't see how it's possible to teach a child a close relative can just be discarded, that love is almost hardwired in. I held on for so so long because I loved an abusive person.

No, I think there is no basis really in reality for any of that.

I did make it very clear that I wasn't talking about those that had suffered childhood abuse.

But, unlike you, I have known those that have estranged parents for reasons that have nothing to do with abuse.

Your reality is yours - other people might have a different reality.

I can see why that idea would bring some strange sort of comfort I suppose but it's an incredibly bleak outlook

I've seen and heard it said many times DiamondLily that this throw away society is more than about goods, but about people and relationships.

Love for some, no longer seems to be enough to transcend the frailty and imperfections that we all carry.

Excellent post.

Gosh I don't see what you see Diamondlily

I don't see people discarding non abusive close family members and those happy family units stand out to me as someone who has never had one.

I don't see AC from non abusive homes commenting on books or podcasts or in self help places, they would probably be pulled up if they did.

I don't see how it's possible to teach a child a close relative can just be discarded, that love is almost hardwired in. I held on for so so long because I loved an abusive person.

No, I think there is no basis really in reality for any of that.

I am not talking about a family where there has been actually been abuse through childhood, but, in general, I do think that along with becoming a "throw away society" with goods, we have also become that with relatives that merely wind us up.

My upbringing wasn't perfect, by any means, I very much doubt my parenting was perfect (who is perfect?), but I was taught that family loyalty, tolerance, consideration, empathy and a sense of duty, towards family, was important.

It's an old fashioned concept now, I suppose, but nothing wrong with that sometimes. Modern thinking isn't always better.

That, yes, elderly parents/grandparents/aunties/uncles can be irritating, needy, pushy, a pest, interfering, or whatever label applied. But, usually, you just dealt with them, when you saw them, in a kindly way.

You considered their feelings.

You perhaps didn't think they were wonderful parents, or wonderful grandparents, or whatevers, in all ways, but you thought they'd done their best, and were still doing their best, as you are doing with your own kids.

Because, as much as so many younger parents think they've got it all lovely, know so much better than our generation managed, what goes around can come around, and it might be that their own children don't actually agree...?

And, if those children have been bought up to see they can just discard anyone that they consider "less than perfect" in the family, then there will be nothing to stop them doing the same.

Some of these ACs seem to mull over their childhoods endlessly, reading the books, listening to the pods, watching the documentaries, and I honestly wonder if it makes them happier. They don't seem to be. ?

As I say, I'm not talking about actual abuse, or really vile behaviour, but with relatives that you just don't like very much, surely just getting on with it can work?

The misery caused by estrangement, unless there are excellent reasons seem to far outweigh any benefits it might bring to anyone.

Cause and effect is one of the lessons we teach our children as we teach them to take responsibility for themselves and their actions.

It can be learned even without that input from parents as your post demonstrates Onward, where AC take on the 'parental' responsibility of their parents.

As you say whether it's our relationship with our own children or our parents, we can only do our best and we can only hope when it comes to our children, that they learn from the good examples that we show them.

Blue Balou, I’m sorry I missed your post, trying to put my own sorry saga to bed.
Why were you moving closer to your daughter? Was it perhaps because you were getting older and it would be easier with her not far away? Would you have wanted to move there if it wasn’t for her? I think if you look at those question and answers it might put things into perspective. There are those lovely selfless grown up children that have a close bond with their parents and love having them near. I’m afraid there’s a lot that don’t. When it’s a duty it becomes a burden. I would consider what you and your husband want as you age, our children are most of our lives but we are a smaller part of theirs, that’s the sad truth for most of us. I am sure that if you and dh make the move if that’s what you want where you want, your daughter will eventually come round, she sounds as if she is a bit worried you might take over the life she has made, she must be a little insecure perhaps. When you have a partner you are not alone.

Oh and some of them don't want help, they want attention lol

It always amazes me that people don't realise that the situation they are in is a result of the decisions they made. I don't mean this about anyone here, but am thinking of a particular relative.

I call it cause and effect. They do incredibly stupid things, then play victim when it goes wrong and have to be helped but never have the self reflection to understand that they caused it. sigh Like children that never grew up.

Thank goodness some of us are the adults to our parents who never grew up or took responsibility in their lives for anything. (It's everyone else's fault but theirs!) I suppose what I'm sowing is patience and helpfulness, hope I reap it from my kids setting a good example but there are no guarantees. Just have to do our best.

I have found there is cause and effect but it doesn’t always work that way. Personally we suffered the cause and effect of other parents on their child. We suffered their consequences. I like the quote of Eugene Peterson
"One of the surprises as we get older, however, is that we come to see that there is no real correlation between the amount of wrong we commit and the amount of pain we experience. An even larger surprise is that very often there is something quite the opposite: We do right and get knocked down. We do the best we are capable of doing, and just as we are reaching out to receive our reward we are hit from the blind side and sent reeling”

So many 'sayings'. They can be used in different contexts and mean different things. Reap what you sow, no good deed goes unpunished, the more you do the less you are thought of. Lots more. The odd one I think, is when you are run ragged you often say to yourself, 'no peace for the wicked' . Why on earth do we say, we, ourselves are wicked? ha ha.

I agree too freedomfromthepast even if those boundaries are created by someone other than yourself.

Indeed Madgran which is why I posted earlier that for EP's here on GN it can come across as a judgement; we've been estranged because we were bad parents, and are reaping what we sowed.

"The more you give, the more gets taken" I can certainly identify with that.

I agree Onward that is what it should mean but sadly that isn't always the case.

Your previous boss sounds like a nightmare! It's bad enough when it happens at work when all of your hard work is neither recognised or valued, but when it's the relationship with your own child, well there's simply no comparison is there.

Agree with you freedomfromthepast

IMO the exploitation of kindness is why people need to have
boundaries.

I'm really glad for you Violetsky Same here, but my previous boss was like the one from the film The Devil Wore Prada lol
Literally nothing I did was "good enough". She'd ring me evenings and weekends, demanding stuff- even though my job was weekday. I definitely don't miss that!

Just to clarify, my actual and not metaphorical job is going really well and I'm working my socks off lol

Madgran77

*It should mean if you treat someone well, they will reciprocate, but we all know it doesn't always happen that way, even though it can do*

Yes that is true Onward. In theory if you treat someone well/kindly it will be reciprocated but it really is not always the case sadly. For instance another well known phrase is "The more you give, the more gets taken"! Also sometimes true sadly!

Well put. Most of us try always to be kind, to do no harm. Sadly it isn’t always reciprocated, in fact at times it’s exploited

Madgran77 Yes! I am thinking of someone in my family when I say "if you give an inch they will take a mile" (and they aren't my kids!)

I agree with what Violetsky said about her job too, you tend to reap what you sow at work - unless your boss is like the one in "The Devil Wore Prada", that is.

It should mean if you treat someone well, they will reciprocate, but we all know it doesn't always happen that way, even though it can do

Yes that is true Onward. In theory if you treat someone well/kindly it will be reciprocated but it really is not always the case sadly. For instance another well known phrase is "The more you give, the more gets taken"! Also sometimes true sadly!

I think reap what you sow in terms of cause and effect can definitely be a thing.

It also means if I plant a poppy, I'll have a poppy if I keep the weeds away.

It should mean if you treat someone well, they will reciprocate, but we all know it doesn't always happen that way, even though it can do.

The problem with the saying "reap what we sow" is that it asssumes that it is only WHAT is sowed that brings about what is reaped! It does not take into account other factors that may have impacted.

So taking the "planting" metaphor, soil quality, watering, heat, cold for instance may all have an impact on what is reaped.

Putting it into the context of human relationships,, friendships, relationships, circumstances, choices, environment are some of the things that will impact on the outcomes as well as parenting, and may well override the parenting lessons learnt as a child.

I thought "reap what you sow" was more cause and effect. If I did not do my job properly I might lose it as a result. If I didn't treat someone kindly I might lose them as a result.

Whereas saying something like "karma" and the suggestion that bad things happen to people because they deserve it or bad things should happen to people because they deserve it, I find distasteful.

I hadn't thought of it like that Onward but you make a good point, perhaps it is about the "next life/afterlife.

That's so true, and it's all too easy to carry the burden of responsibility when relationships go wrong when it can be because of the other person's behaviour, rather than our own especially if we're being made to feel that way.

I'm so pleased that it wasn't final.

I may be wrong but I think reaping what you sow maybe means that we will reap it in the next life/afterlife. It definitely doesn't always happen, though it does in some cases.

Thanks Smileless. I really thought it was final, so glad it's not. I think sometimes we think things happen because of us when in reality they happen because of how the other person is dealing (or not) with life.