Do abusive people know they are abusive?

There was nothing wrong with you icanhandthemback. There was a lot wrong with your parents.
I never felt that any of it was my fault. I hated the way we were treated. I knew it wasn't normal or my fault.
Bizarrely, apart from my older sister, none of us cut our father off later in life. He was very much part of the family, yet he left us all damaged in some way. How strange life is.

My Dad was the same it was when I grew up and had a voice and opinion on things. He didn't like that.

It all comes down to control.

His moods would last for days sometimes then a switch would flick and he would be fine. It was like walking on eggshells.

He was also a fantastic Grandad, he's passed away now but my children never got old enough for them to see the man child he was and I'm greatful they have the memories of a fun grandad. I never want to rubbish that for them.

He sounds Grade A idiot. I could call him a few more choice things but I don't want to get banned

I think it comes back to, if someone is saying, I won't have a relationship with you until you give me this thing (money, childcare, property etc)...that's abuse and it's more silent treatment than estrangement because it has an outcome.

If someone is saying, I can't have a relationship with you until you change a behaviour that's hurting me.. then that is never abuse. Whether you agree you should change that behaviour or not.

The strange thing was that he was a good father when they were growing up. His moodies were reserved for me.

I divorced him 20 years ago, and my kids took the strictly neutral ground, which was the best way.

12 years ago, out of a clear blue sky (nothing had happened), he sent them both a text saying he longer considered them to be his children, and he wanted nothing more to fo with them.

Friends tried to talk to him, my daughter tried to talk to him, but he was in a massive sulk about something, and that was that.?.

Honestly, through this, he has lost his grandchildren, who view him with indifference, and despite making contact, his children have lost all respect for him.

What an idiot he is. ?

Kate1949

Very unkind DL.

I agree. As a child and young adult, I felt that there must be something wrong with me that my parent didn't want me. I couldn't bear to do that to any child of mine and one of the reasons I fell in love with my husband was because his children came first in all things.

I agree, a very shitty and unkind thing to do. He sounds like a dick to put it politely.
My Dad had a habit of sulking when he couldn't get his own way.
Children with abusive parents is one thing but that isn't Elder abuse.

Elder abuse is having a relationship and being abused in it. There's a thread somewhere of a Mom/Gran who is being treated appallingly by her son and DIL, mainly her son.
That is Elder abuse.

I think some do and some don't. Sometimes psychological defence mechanisms such as denial might explain some cases.

Very unkind DL.

PoppyBlue

I don't think its abuse either, you have to have a relationship with somone to abuse them.

My ex cut off our two adult children, for no reason for 10 years (he was sulking about something).

They felt very hurt, so that, in my mind, was a form of abuse.

They felt that way, so it was that way.

A very unkind way to treat our children, in my view.

I don't agree PoppyBlue. In some circumstances ending that relationship by estranging them is in itself abuse.

I don't think its abuse either, you have to have a relationship with somone to abuse them.

Yes, I hadn't thought about that aspect. It is very unkind to cut off an elderly relative, without good reason. especially if it's sudden, and they lose contact with their GC, and especially if they live alone.

Yet another form of abuse I suppose. ?

I agree that it can be a form of elderly abuse if the sole purpose of estranging is to hurt and/or punish the one whose been estranged Sparkly.

SparklyGrandma

There’s another aspect of estrangement that we could maybe consider - if it’s a gran estranged from her AC, it can turn into elder abuse.

Being isolated on purpose, cut off from the comfort of family life, it affecting the health of the older person, the impact is or can be abusive even if the intention is not meant that way.

I don't understand this

I quite agree that estrangement can be done by abusive people to hurt and punish someone, I've seen my mother do it for quite long periods to her relatives.

But if the intention isn't to hurt and punish then it is never abusive.

My mother can tell me I am a cruel and horrible person for estranging her until she is blue in the face but the fact remains her behaviour caused the estrangement so the blame and guilt is hers not mine.

Just because she uses silent treatment or estrangement to hurt and punish, doesn't mean it is right to project that onto me. Again , that's her guilt to carry.

There’s another aspect of estrangement that we could maybe consider - if it’s a gran estranged from her AC, it can turn into elder abuse.

Being isolated on purpose, cut off from the comfort of family life, it affecting the health of the older person, the impact is or can be abusive even if the intention is not meant that way.

It didn't feel like bravery and strength VS. It was fear. I must have been really small when we went to that police station as I can remember looking up at the counter and the sergeant leaning down to speak to us. My sister is three years older.

Thank you Stiller.

You must have spent your childhood in fear, wondering what the next incident would be and when it would happen icanhandthembacksad.

Fortunately, my mother recognised that she couldn't control her temper and sent me to boarding school so, except for the holidays, I was safe. The sad thing, is she keeps asking me if she was a good mother and when I tried to explain to her how terrifying she had been, she was in total denial. I didn't see the point of falling out with her partly because, in a way, she still terrifies me although, like most bullies, I have learned that if I quietly say that we will just have to agree to disagree, she doesn't explode. With her dementia she can still pack a punch though and I have become very good at jumping out of the way. Her Care Home staff are learning too.

It must take so much bravery and strength to ask for help as a small vulnerable child...

Awful that no one listened

Kate.

Some of the posts here are very difficult to read and literally bring tears to me eyes.

Oh yes living in fear. Fear at home, waiting for his footsteps in the entry. Hoping he wouldn't hit my mother. Praying he would die. Fear at school. A head full of crawling lice. Being taken out of school to be deloused aged 7, alone with no explanation.
People would say 'Your dad's good looking isn't he?' He wore smart suits while my mother was borrowing from the neighbours to feed us. People say to me now 'You're quite a nervous person aren't you?'. I wonder why!

Smileless2012

You must have spent your childhood in fear, wondering what the next incident would be and when it would happen icanhandthemback.

So rather than being grateful that the children he estranged for 10 year are talking to him, he still complains DL. You'd think there'd come a point when someone like that would see that there's a common denominator and that common denominator is them!!

Yes, none so blind as those that cannot see that they are the problem, as they say...?

You must have spent your childhood in fear, wondering what the next incident would be and when it would happen icanhandthemback.

So rather than being grateful that the children he estranged for 10 year are talking to him, he still complains DL. You'd think there'd come a point when someone like that would see that there's a common denominator and that common denominator is them!!

MissAdventure

I've never seen that said.
Different people have different ideas about what constitutes abuse.
My ex would regularly go off to his room and fling himself on his bed about what he considered abusive comments.

I think that had more to do with unresolved issues from his childhood than the fact that all of his friends were being abusive.

He even recognised it himself, always demanding apologies for comments made by people who had no intention of abusing him.

Trying to insist that I "took his side" on issues that really weren't issues.

My ex was the same - saw "abuse" in every comment made, whether by me, family or friends.

Everything in life had to be about him and how he was feeling.

Nothing was ever funny, in his head, because he always looked for hidden meanings,

A tantrum a day. When confronted about his behaviour, it was ongoing whining about his childhood (which was abusive), and that everyone always put him down and laughed at him.

They didn't - he just had to be the centre of attention.?

He always needed someone else to blame. When I was married to him, he blamed his mother for everything that went wrong in his life.

I haven't spoken to him for 20 years, no contact at all. But, now, when things go wrong in his life, blaming me is his default setting.?

Never, ever his fault.

The trouble is that it becomes pathetic when a grown man is constantly carrying on like a sulky child, and you lose all respect for them.

Which is the kiss of death in a marriage.?

He's estranged our adult children for 10 years - even now they are talking again, he won't say why. Just says "everyone always blames him".

Well, he was the one that estranged them.?

Smileless2012

That's the trouble isn't it icanhandthemback, the face they show to the world isn't the real one.

Very true. My mother was a master at looking as if she was talking to us nicely whilst putting her arm around us and gripping our arm painfully and telling us what she would do to us when she got home. Her public persona was sweetness and light.