Do abusive people know they are abusive?

Great post, Chewbacca.

PA is difficult to pin down, as it manifests in different ways depending on the situation.

The colleague I mentioned upthread was also PA in many ways - one was to go off 'sick' when she didn't want to do something. Sometimes it was when a meeting had something on the agenda that might result in her having to change the way she did something (she hated updating her practices). She just wouldn't go to the meeting, then claim that the changes had been made behind her back, she had never agreed to them, and it 'wasn't fair'.

At other times she would imply that if she had to take part in something she didn't want to do, it would make her stressed. We all knew that she regularly took months off with stress, and that we would have to pick up her workload, so the threat was used to stop anyone asking her to pull her weight. There were other examples, but you get the gist.

It was all done by casting herself as the victim. She claimed that she was bullied, that people behaved selfishly (as opposed to assertively), that she was 'too nice' to argue. She claimed that people took advantage of her 'good nature', and preferred the silent treatment, or the 'you just do what you like - I don't want an argument' approach, and literally walking away. Claiming to hate conflict is often another refuge of the passive aggressive - they cause it everywhere they go, but won't accept responsibility for it, as in their minds, anyone who stands up to them or disagrees is picking on them.

The truth was that people walked on eggshells around her, as she threatened to report people (including management) for bullying. People liked her when they first met her, as she presented as pleasant and kindly, (if a bit needy) but she was very unpopular with those who'd worked with her for any length of time and could see through her. She would pick up on that, and it fed her paranoia - it was a really difficult situation, but entirely of her own making.

Some abusers can be insightful when it's all explained to them, but others can't learn.

DiamondLily @ 05.29; good question! I would think that there has to be some degree of self recognition there, particularly if it's been drawn to their attention. My only personal experience of interaction with a PA was extremely frustrating and the relationship was ultimately destroyed by their behaviour. I couldn't work out if it was just a really bad character flaw or if there was something else going on in their dim and distant past and PA was just a part of it. I did say to them, on several occasions, how it made me feel manipulated and controlled; those quietly muttered one word quips - always said as they were walking away, the silent treatment or refusing to answer and then pretending that "they didn't hear" me.

You're always on the back foot with a PA, the games and the tactics change constantly; countless attempts to sort it out with them but I was always met with the same disingenuous responses; "I don't know what you mean!" "But that's not what I actually meant, you always take things the wrong way!" (but it was what they'd actually said)"

I've learnt since that it's all about them being in control of a situation; they want you to know that they're furious with you about something but, for whatever reason, they can't articulate it and so they vent their anger by making you angry instead; now they look like the reasonable one and the victim looks unreasonable.
My ex was absolutely desperate for approval and that manifested itself in many ways but I figured that, even in anger, he had to convince himself (and others if they were around) that he was passive, non confrontational, easy going. He wasn't; he was very aggressive; he just expressed it differently.

Allsorts

Diamond Lil, You are right, we don't know what our own parents went through, talking about your problems wasn't on when I was small. My father had a career in Air Force, was a very young man at the outbreak and served overseas, lost friends I know but did not talk about it. It was a bit stiff upper lip. They were not saying I love you every day, but they did, they showed it every day. No one really knows any ones story. I was taught to know your duty to others, be honest and have a sense of humour as everything passes.

No they don't. Our generation, and the ones that followed have never known war, and the horrors it can bring.

Society has changed as well - I was bought up in a London working class area. People didn't run round, emoting, sharing and gushing.

The net didn't exist, so there was little known about what was good or bad parenting, and little known about the effects of trauma.

Talking more should be best, but people seem no happier for doing this, at times.?

Diamond Lil, You are right, we don't know what our own parents went through, talking about your problems wasn't on when I was small. My father had a career in Air Force, was a very young man at the outbreak and served overseas, lost friends I know but did not talk about it. It was a bit stiff upper lip. They were not saying I love you every day, but they did, they showed it every day. No one really knows any ones story. I was taught to know your duty to others, be honest and have a sense of humour as everything passes.

Yes, my mother was badly affected by the war. They lived in the Eastend of London, lost 3 houses, got buried twice, and on the third hit, her dad was buried, and she helped pull him out dead.

Other relatives were also affected by what had happened to them during those years.

As a child, I didn't really "get it". Now, I do. Although, I suppose, it's unjust that I paid a bit of a price for what Hitler did, I can empathise a bit more with her.?

These are very different times,

These abusive people are damaged in one way or another. I actually feel sorry for them. Many of our parents' generation were damaged by the War but they wouldn't talk about it or admit it. My parents were, in their own way. My mother was abusive, my father just went on his own sweet way and ignored it. Now I understand them a lot better with the benefit of hindsight. They were both active in the RAF and both saw some horrific things and lived through death and destruction of loved ones. They would never, ever admit to abuse, just really didn't comprehend what it was.

Chewbacca

^Can someone explain what passive aggressive means please?^

Someone who is passive-aggressive acts out their anger in ways that are cloaked and hidden, explains therapist Alicia Muñoz, LPC. "Essentially, you 'hide' your little acts of violence in plain sight. This makes passive-aggression uniquely insidious and destructive."

Passive-aggressive behavior can be anything that avoids direct confrontation but still expresses a negative emotion.

So, why are people passive-aggressive? According to somatic psychologist and author of Reclaiming Pleasure Holly Richmond, Ph.D., it can stem from being taught to people-please and avoid conflict, often in childhood. "They learned that conflict wouldn't get them what they wanted so they had to present it in a nice way and be subversive about getting their needs met," she explains.

^A passive-aggressive person might repeatedly claim that they are not mad or that they are fine—even when they are apparently furious and obviously not okay. In denying what they are feeling and refusing to be emotionally open, they shut down further communication and refuse to discuss the issue.^

That's a brilliant descriptor, CB.

I've often wondered if people who are PA know that they are?

Their behaviour is usually fairly easily spotted by others, but many PAs still do it anyway.

I've known a lot through life - they can cause absolute uproar, but then they present themselves as victims, who, apparently, can't quite work out what's happened to cause the problem. ?

It's an irritating trait because it's so manipulative.?

Stiller

@Smileless,

Your point goes back to my first comment. When abuse is subjective, the ONLY opinion that matters is the person on the receiving end of the behavior. It’s another reason why it is completely and totally offensive when people say things like “my mother did such and such too and I’d never estrange. It’s wrong.” Or when the moral posturing comes in the form of “a decent person wouldn’t walk away from a loving parent. I dealt with worse with my mother or MIL and I still took care of them until their last day”. By trying to frame another person’s experiences, feelings, and life decisions strictly through the prism of our own one can easily miss the mark on recognizing said behavior in themselves. It is what they are used to/have dealt with, so it is easy to dismiss when others say they suffered abuse at their hands—regardless of the form. My mum would claim to have been a loving MIL. The truth is her actions were so far from loving and kind that even if she did love my wife, it wouldn’t change the nature of her bullying behavior. It was abusive, no matter what she says. No matter what her inner feelings were.

To be fair, it's not always as simple as that.

I chose not to estrange my (by today's terms) emotionally abusive mother.

I did it for my reasons, which was primarily she was a wonderful granny. It wasn't about moral posturing, it was about what I considered to be in my children's best interests.

I don't regret a thing, because I had long since learned how to handle her nonsense, if she started. My kids (and my own grandchildren) adored her until the day she died.

As I've said before, every set of circumstances is different. Families can be complicated things.

Everyone's view of what abuse is can be different.

When she contracted Alzheimer's, in later life, I fought, tooth and nail to get her the best care possible.

It was through a sense of duty, that's true, but I was bought up to have a sense of duty, which is probably a generational thing.

I have never tried to rationalise her behaviour or analyse it - she was what she was. End of.

I wouldn't waste headspace constantly reliving and rehashing my childhood, as I think it's a waste of time, but people must do what they think best.?

Abusive people especially partners are narcissistic they are calculating and evil. They know exactly what they aim to achieve and will go all out to achieve it.
I think they are so wrapped up in their own interests they don’t see they are aggressive. Behaviour that takes many forms and believe me I was married to it and it was not pretty.

Stiller

Edge26

My son is very abusive, he thinks he not. Surely if a AC loves his parent like he says he does he would treat them with respect and realise this.

If you feel his behavior is abusive, it’s abusive. You are the one on the receiving end. No one can invalidate your feelings, no matter their perspective.

So Stiller by your own definition of abuse, you are saying that your mother would be perfectly justified in calling your treatment of her abusive if that is what she feels?
I would argue that it is not, as it is not your "intention" to hurt or humiliate her but to protect yourself and your family.
Intent is an important factor when labelling a behaviour as abusive or bullying.

A lot of what some people consider passive aggression is walking on eggshells by those more than capable of standing their corner. Its best if you've estranged some one years and years ago to enjoy the place you wanted to be in to not keep over analysing everything. Let it go.

Shrodinger's kindness - valid and invalid at the same time?

Pretty much Doodledog

Good point Doodledog. I think that if you think you are being kind by behaving in a certain way, but the recipient of your behaviour thinks you're being unkind and tells you so, but you carry on not caring that they feel the way the do, that is abusive.

I agree Allsorts that all actions have consequences but I think that sometimes what goes around doesn't always come around.

Good explanation as to the meaning of passive aggressive Chewbacca.

Ahh there you are Normandygirl , I knew I'd seen a really good post about abuse and intent but couldn't remember who'd made it. I can see from your post @ 18.30 that it was you.

I agree that when behaviour is with the intent of causing harm, it is abusive, and I also agree that if that behaviour doesn't start out that way, but is received as abusive by the recipient, they say that they find it abusive and it doesn't stop, then it becomes abuse.

Your son is very abusive Edge and I understand why you say if an AC says they love you, why on earth would they treat the way he treats you.

In some cases whether or not abuse is abuse IMO and experience it can be subjective. Your son knows how his behaviour affects you Edge but he does it anyway, therefore it is abuse.

I do think if you talk about something every day it’s far from finished. My estrangement will never be.
Abusive people justify their actions, but all actions have consequences, what goes round comes round.

How are people defining 'validate' on this thread?

If I say I am being kind, and think that that is true, can someone invalidate my feelings by saying I am abusive if they see my behaviour as such, - or is my saying I'm kind invalidating their feelings that they are being abused.

Shrodinger's kindness - valid and invalid at the same time?

Edge26

My son is very abusive, he thinks he not. Surely if a AC loves his parent like he says he does he would treat them with respect and realise this.

If you feel his behavior is abusive, it’s abusive. You are the one on the receiving end. No one can invalidate your feelings, no matter their perspective.

My son is very abusive, he thinks he not. Surely if a AC loves his parent like he says he does he would treat them with respect and realise this.

Walking on. Not in eggshells.

Trying to work out if there is intent behind someone's behaviour just leads to years of walking in eggshells, resentment building up, and angst.

As has been said, nobody is even sure if abusers are blissfully unaware, or if it it's all an elaborate ploy in order to control others.

The best thing is to move out of range, I think.

Intent is irrelevant where harmful behavior is concerned.

Agree to disagree Normandygirl. Ignorance of a fact does not excuse behavior, particularly for adults.

And my mother will claim to this day that she was only trying to be helpful. She was still abusive mentally to my wife whether she or anyone else views it that way.

Stiller

My mother bullied my wife. I would say that is a form of abuse. But my mum would claim she was only trying to “help” and be “involved”. So yes, “recollections may vary”and therefore some abusive people will not perceive their behavior as such. But the perception of the person on the receiving end of the behavior is all that matters. If there is a question as to whether or not certain behavior is abusive, a decent human would refrain from engaging in said behavior.

I don't totally agree stiller
As I have said before to be called ,abuse there has to be intent, and maybe your mother was genuinely trying to help, bearing in mind her own background and upbringing. If you and your wife explained that the behaviour was hurtful to you and it carried on, at that point it becomes abuse ,because she then knowingly acts in a way that she is aware is hurtful.

Can someone explain what passive aggressive means please?

Someone who is passive-aggressive acts out their anger in ways that are cloaked and hidden, explains therapist Alicia Muñoz, LPC. "Essentially, you 'hide' your little acts of violence in plain sight. This makes passive-aggression uniquely insidious and destructive."

Passive-aggressive behavior can be anything that avoids direct confrontation but still expresses a negative emotion.

So, why are people passive-aggressive? According to somatic psychologist and author of Reclaiming Pleasure Holly Richmond, Ph.D., it can stem from being taught to people-please and avoid conflict, often in childhood. "They learned that conflict wouldn't get them what they wanted so they had to present it in a nice way and be subversive about getting their needs met," she explains.

A passive-aggressive person might repeatedly claim that they are not mad or that they are fine—even when they are apparently furious and obviously not okay. In denying what they are feeling and refusing to be emotionally open, they shut down further communication and refuse to discuss the issue.