Interesting watch

VioletSky

This is abthread about causes of estrangement and barriers to reconciliation

Name calling fits and I'm glad it came up, that's a positive

Yes, its good that it is being discussed as a cause of Estrangement and a barrier to reconciliation

I am glad that making generalised judgements has also come up, for the same reason.

This is abthread about causes of estrangement and barriers to reconciliation

Name calling fits and I'm glad it came up, that's a positive

lyleLyle

Name calling is name calling. Using anger to justify it is wrong. Using the excuse that it is okay when we describe personal circumstances is illogical. The issue is with the name calling itself, not the description of whom it’s directed toward. But the defense of the name calling actually illustrates exactly my previous points about accountability. Those who listen and self-reflect will always have better shot at meaningful reconciliation. Those who don’t can hardly complain about the lack of relationship.

Yes name calling is name calling. And not helpful. But using one specific phrase used in a particular context to make a generalised judgement about the reasons for that persons Estrangement is not making excuses. Making such judgements based on the use of that phrase in a particular context on a thread could possibly suggest a lack of empathy in understanding human nature. Noone is perfect and making absolutely no allowance for that, certainly doesn't show empathy. But of course, as I said only could suggest that because anything else would be making a judgement based on one particular aspect of someone's comments, which I would not wish to do!

It suprises me sometimes because most, whether they are children or adults, do not like to be called names

What I teach children is that, they don't want to be the person doing something they don't like, to someone else and I remind them how it makes them feel.

By relating it that way, they understand the concept quickly

I agree Delila.

And there is no such thing as a “safe space” to use derogatory language and insults. People are free to point out the toxicity of it, and correlate it back to the state of the relationship being discussed. They are not unrelated. When we get to the point where we feel so “right” that a basic thing such as refraining from name-calling actually has to be debated, it’s really hard to accept that there is only one side who is problematic. The behavior is indicative.

Name calling is name calling. Using anger to justify it is wrong. Using the excuse that it is okay when we describe personal circumstances is illogical. The issue is with the name calling itself, not the description of whom it’s directed toward. But the defense of the name calling actually illustrates exactly my previous points about accountability. Those who listen and self-reflect will always have better shot at meaningful reconciliation. Those who don’t can hardly complain about the lack of relationship.

Exceot this is a discussion about causes of estrangement, as well as barriers to reconciliation

Sometimes family members have different views of name calling and would need to hear each other out there

So having the discussion here may be helpful

I made a decision never to speak to my mother again, I’ve stuck to it for twenty years, and I shall continue to do so.
If one of her friends should ask her, and I’m sure they do, why I’ve cut her out of my life, I’m pretty sure she would say she’s absolutely no idea.
Not true, she knows exactly why I don’t want anything else to do with her, she pushed me into a corner, and I snapped, and I’m so grateful she did, because being free from her has made me happy.
I’ve no desire to build bridges, I have always taken my share of the blame, I know I’m far from perfect, but some relationships are really not worth preserving.

I think most people on Gransnet are probably sufficiently clued-up to be able to pick their way unguided through the rights and wrongs of name-calling, and would consider this a safe space in which to give vent to the strong personal feelings behind the decision to do so.

I did say it wouldn't be an official diagnosis

It's tricky

I'm not really interested in pursuing the rest of that, I haven't said anything about anyone personally on this thread

I've shared my thoughts on name calling only

I think it can be viewed as name calling. We don't have a professional diagnosis of our d.i.l. so as you say, we've based our opinion on the behaviour we've witnessed.

DiamondLily referred to her husband's EAC as 'gutless wonders' based on the behaviour she has witnessed. It helped some of us understand her situation and enabled her to explain her particular experience.

I don't agree that if narcissistic victim syndrome is accepted by the DSM that that will see someone being diagnosed as a narcissist without being present.

The diagnosis will diagnose the person with the syndrome, not the person they believe to be responsible for them having it.

"Narcissist" is interesting, is it name calling?, It is a recognisable and diagnosable mental health illness that enables understanding of human behaviour

Can it be used as an insult? Definitely! Would saying your DIL is a narcissist based on behaviours you have witnessed be name calling? I don't think so Smileless I'm not sure it is the same, it helps you explain yourself to others and understand your own situation

The other valid point is, is it acceptable to call someone undiagnosed a narcissist at all? Well, I don't know

A lot of mental health practitioners now talk about something called "narcissistic victim syndrome" realistically if that makes it into the DSM, narcissists will be diagnosed without their actual presence but in no official capacity in their medical records

I do wonder what will happen with that

People can say whatever they wish you say within forum guidelines

If someone has said something on this thread you think breaks guidelines then you are at liberty to report it.

Otherwise people can express themselves at liberty

Good posts Madgran.

I think we would all agree that name calling could be a reason for estrangement however, there is of course a difference in expressing one's view of a person once the estrangement has happened on a forum where one's identity is hidden, to name calling the estranger prior to the estrangement.

As I posted earlier, having one's personal situation discussed is not the same as that person being criticised for the language they choose to use.

EP's are sometimes called narcissists. I refer to our ES's wife as a narcissist because I believe that she is one. If DiamondLily believes her husbands EAC are 'gutless wonders' that is her opinion and she's entitled to say so.

OK, well you are addressing me and my comments are general

Although I have said perhaps it's best not to bring personal situations to a discussion if you aren't happy for them to be discussed

Only what is said on this thread though, anything said elsewhere would not be relevant. People can and do change over time.

I think we basically agree that name calling isn't helpful and contributes to some Estrangements

Which is not the same as my commenting on judgements being made about someone's Estrangement based on one example of name calling, which is what I have been doing throughout my comments on the subject. I have not been saying that name calling is not a cause

No I see no particular purpose in PMing on it

Of course, do feel free to PM me instead

But the subject of name calling came up and I have honestly given my thoughts on that subject which you are welcome to revisit

VioletSky

Here is an interesting article about what the impact of name calling or witnessing name calling is in different scenarios

www.verywellfamily.com/consequences-of-name-calling-460613

Yup interesting. I have seen that one before. Not a source that assists with making a judgement on one posters situation because they used a phrase in their post though.

I'm not bored by it either but us bouncing back and forth is probably somewhat boring for others.

Yup, may be cathartic and not help healing. But still not a singular source to make judgements about the cause of the Estrangement whilst ignoring other nuanced layers of information.
My comments are about the assumptions apparently being made, not about the wider causes of Estrangement. Picking out one use of phraseology to make judgements isn't helpful really in such a discussion. Actually I dont think it was you who originally did, my original comment on this related to someone elses post.

Nope ofcourse we don't have to agree.

Here is an interesting article about what the impact of name calling or witnessing name calling is in different scenarios

www.verywellfamily.com/consequences-of-name-calling-460613

I don't agree with that either, name calling someone where they can't hear may be cathartic but still is not productive and won't help healing

But this is a discussion, views will differ and we don't have to agree, so up to you if you want to move on from it madgran, I'm not bored by it

VioletSky

I think you are missing the point

Name calling absolutely is a cause of estrangement as is labelling a child or another adult instead of understanding the behaviour.. as I explained

People may not agree with that but it has been brought to discussion and that is my honest thoughts about it

No I'm not missing the point. Yes name calling can be a cause of Estrangement, we know that. So can many other things.

But one phrase not said to the AC directly ( noone can assume it ever has been said or that name calling was a part of that estrangement) but expressing obvious anger on an Estrangement thread discussion, being used to make a judgement about what happened in that persons Estrangement is unhelpfully judgemental, based on tenuous assumptions.

At the very least when other information has been given about a person's estrangement then if one really wants to make a judgement, they deserve to have those nuances factored in. In your own situation there are so many layers aren't there! Clearly there are in others situations as well and one phrase used in one thread, ignoring other information, really doesn't recognise the layers.

Anyway, this must be getting boring for everyone.

I think you are missing the point

Name calling absolutely is a cause of estrangement as is labelling a child or another adult instead of understanding the behaviour.. as I explained

People may not agree with that but it has been brought to discussion and that is my honest thoughts about it

VioletSky

As this is a discussion about the causes of estrangement all views are valid and sharing our personal situation on this thread may not be a good idea if we do not actually want ur discussed

Agreement is not sought or necessary

Yes all views are valid including stating ones own situation and accepting that it may be discussed. There is a difference though between being discussed and making generalised judgements because of one particular phrase used, about the causes etc of a person's situation.

No agreement isn't sought or needed but comment when one disagrees or thinks something is unfair/unreasonable or whatever is valid and a normal part of discussion. It's not personal, its discussion, comment and debate.

I think we have both seen over a long period of time, judgements made about the causes of someone's estrangement on various threads Violet. Certainly you have in the past quite understandably described and condemned some of the generalised judgements and statements about your own personal Estrangement situation. I have also, as have others, condemned judgemental statements/assumptions made on one person's situation based on facts/common factors about estrangement, without at least some recognition of the possible nuances, the individual influences, the historical causes etc on many threads.

I honestly dont know why these threads always seem to go this way other than what I said in, I think, my first post!