Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life

I'm sorry that you felt judged by my comments, I'm sorry about that. It wasn't my intention at all.

If you're willing to move mountains for them I'd absolutely apologize and ask if you can draw a line in the sand, start a fresh, move on and be there for them. You can't have a relationship with just your grandson, it won't happen without them. You need a good relationship with them both to have a good relationship with your grandson.

My Dad was just shy of 60 when he passed, it was a huge shock for my mom and us and you have all my sympathy. Life is so unfair.

Sorry if it's too nosey, are they Anti depressants? I'm on anti Anxiety meds and they made me feel 10 times worse for about 2 months before I started to feel a difference.

@March
I’m terrified of ending up estranged. I’d do anything to stop this happening and I reached out for advice as to how I can avoid this .
None of us are horrible people, and I am absolutely broken by the loss of my partner. He was far too young to die at 59 , I can scarcely believe it . My life these days is utterly horrible. Lonely , and I’m permanently anxious about so many things . If my son and DIL are not in my life I fear this will tip me over the edge . I’ve been put in some horrible meds which are disagreeing with me badly . I don’t know if it’s them or the stress making feel sick all day .
I just want to try to avoid anything awful happening. INTERFLORA have a lot to answer for because they’ve made an already fragile situation much worse. You can’t complain because it’s just a chat box and not a person on the end of the line x

@March

I felt quite judged by your remarks. I certainly don’t dislike my son and DIL , I’d move mountains to keep them in my life . They are not aware I don’t like them that’s certain. Why would I send flowers to say thinking of you to someone I disliked , it doesn’t make sense?
I am absolutely frantic that my son might be collecting up justifications for estrangement. That will destroy me and my family after losing my beloved partner so recently. I don’t know why you’ve jumped to so many conclusions here .
My sister advised taking a step back to protect me actually because she disagrees with how my son is treating me .
My son and DIL are having plenty of space away from me and I feel we should come together to offer each other love and support.
I offered to cover the vet bill because I felt so bad about the incident involving the cat . I suspect he’s lying because he’s lied to me before. Lots of times. I’ve caught him out which is upsetting. This behaviour is so new to me . I previously had a loving relationship with both of them and I’m only wanting a relationship with my grandson, which is a normal thing to want in life . I’m not looking to be possessive of him in any way , just to see him will be overwhelming and beautiful after such a difficult year . For all of us .

I can only hope that I don’t end up estranged over something that happened and we failed to address it at the time.

You're human, they are human, you was going through something really traumatic with the loss of your partner, they thought they were losing their baby..
It sounds like then it's just steam rolled.

I don't get the flower thing either, I've read some bad reviews about that company, poor quality flowers and wrong orders. It seems like they have form for it. It just happened to be at the worst possible timing.

It's time to have a think about what you want and how you want to move forward with this. You don't sound like a horrible person and neither do they. It's just been a rough and horrible time for you both and maybe all of you have reacted out of hot headedness, fear, plus hormones!

You're not alone Ladys, not only do you have what appears to be a very supportive family, you also have our online support which I hope you're finding helpful.

TBH, I don't see anything wrong with asking why you hadn't been told about the pregnancy. I'm sure the vast majority of mothers of sons would have done the same, especially when the news was delivered along side worries of a potential miscarriage.

Anyone reading this may think twice, but no one thinks there'll be such an adverse reaction unless it happens to them, or they read about it happening to someone else.

The incident should have been addressed at the time in a calm and measured manner, once it was known that the baby wasn't at risk. Everyone would have been frantic with worry and when that's the case, it's all too easy to say or do the wrong thing.

We all make mistakes but it seems to me that all too often in estrangement and possible estrangement situations, they're blown out of all proportion, allowed to fester and then used as a stick to beat someone with.

@Allsorts
Yes I totally understand the fear they were feeling but it was such a strange time . This newfound knowledge that I had was mixed up with the grief I was experiencing for my partner who had recently died . I know daughters often tell their mothers first , but I did nevertheless feel hurt that the whole family knew not just her mother . This seems odd . When I asked why I’d not been told it was to help me understand exactly what was going on . I wasn’t aware anything was afoot then to be told you might be a Nan but might not was quite strange , particularly in A&E after waiting for 10 hours I think at that time . Like you say , there’s no excuse for their cruelty towards me since . They seem to be mounting a campaign in order to justify estrangement which will turn out to be calculated and well executed. I’ve been accused of harassment for sending flowers to my DIL . I just don’t get it ? Does that make sense ? Since the uncident in the hospital, we’ve had good times and been on good terms , so it’s even more confusing because they didn’t talk about it with me at the time .

Actually I do think their cruelty towards me right the way through a devastating bereavement is as bad as what I said to them . The difference is they’re doing it in purpose whereas I was hurt and confused. Yes maybe I didn’t handle the situation very well , but I was hurt and confused as opposed to malicious.
I can only hope that I don’t end up estranged over something that happened and we failed to address it at the time . It was 6 months ago and the baby is due in March. I’ve constantly been threatened with no contact with my grandson over many months now , which is mentally draining. This , combined with the dossier, the “ harassment “ , the continual lies my son now tells me are all very worrying sign which at this time I really could do without. I just wish my partner was here with me x

sorry Whiff here are your x

Morning everyone.

[flowers[ and a (((hug))) for you Whiff. I hope you're feeling a little better today. We are all here for you and look forward to seeing you when you're ready.

I can understand your sister's train of thought Ladys. Maybe not initiating contact, but waiting for your son to contact you (which he's doing) is the way to go and putting some boundaries in place.

Refusing to listen to his abuse, firstly by telling him he's way out of line and then ending the call or if you're with him, walking away or telling him to leave.

Due to the size of his father's family, our ES's children are missing out on aunts, uncles and cousins. I know some will say that what you've never had, you never miss but that doesn't alter the fact that they've missed out on so much.

You're right agnurse when you say how the actions of someone can be viewed negatively despite the best of intentions, depending on the recipients opinion, which brings us back to what we so often say on these threads, that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Had Ladys not sent her d.i.l. flowers, with or without the unordered lilies, no doubt she'd have been accused of not caring. They are sent with the best of intentions and regarded as an act of harassment and because they included lilies, a deliberate attempt to kill the cat!!!

If only (if it's true which I don't think it is) her son had taken a moment to think about the flowers his mother as a cat lover and owner, had had in the house over the years. He'd have concluded that she never had lilies, so why on earth would she send lilies to them.

You're right of course Allsorts that some couples don't announce the pregnancy until those first 3 months have past, but I don't understand why sometimes it's OK for the expectant mother's mother to know, and not the expectant father's.

We know our son's well enough to know if they're never particularly forthcoming about what's going on with their lives and in that case, maybe wouldn't be surprised that we hadn't been told sooner, although I still find that odd.

But if you have a close relationship with your son where he does talk to you about anything and everything, why wouldn't he tell his mum that he was going to be a dad?

IMO D's confiding in their mother's more than their m's.i.l. is neither here nor there; it's to be expected. It doesn't explain why a son who usually confides in his own mother, doesn't tell her the good news. In that situation I think it's perfectly understandable for his mother to feel deliberately excluded.

If it's expected and accepted that our d.i.l's mother and family come first, why is it wrong for us to wonder why the same doesn't apply to our son's?

Whatever the reasons for taking the decision to estrange, I do think it should be seen as life changing with the distinct possibility of being irreversible.

As you say Ladys the longer the estrangement lasts, the harder it may well be to reconcile and in addition is the broken trust. There are so many incidents where the EAC has lied in an attempt to explain and justify their actions. Then there's the fear that having done this once they may do it again, not to mention the heartbreak, pain and anguish they've caused.

And don't mention anything about grandparents right to them.

I think you need to take a massive step back here, your grandson is still in the womb and you've already turned him into a lonely, smothered child, who will have no birthday parties, no family holidays, you disagree with them on their parenting choices they haven't even made yet and the clear dislike you have for your son and DIL is very obvious and they most likey know it.

You're heading down a slippery path.

There's been hurt caused on both sides, by both sides, intentionally or not.

I agree with your sister, take a break as your mental health will only get worse with so much negativity.

The vet bill issue, the price sounds about right, it's so expensive. I wouldn't ask you to pay the bill either if it was my cat and my relationship with my mom was on rocky ground as it would be something else that would be dragged up in an argument. There's no proof they are lying.

I don't think all is lost, you're still in contact with your son. Try changing your mindset, you can't change theirs, take a breath before reacting.

I hope everything works out for you, you sound like you're hurting

Yes, hope you are ok Whiff xx

Smiles has advised you well ladysu. When you are first estranged or threatened with it, you have no idea how to handle it. Smiles & I did the exact opposite, but still ended up on the same long 11 years of estrangement. Smiles kept quiet and I went to court for visitation rights. Even though my D&GD lived with me before her now H and GD's stepdad came along, I wasn't successful as the judge believed all their lies, even their statement was written by his mother and on coming out of court she laughed in my face telling me proudly that she had concocted the statement full of lies!

I always say and wish I had done the same as Smiles. But one thing that is for sure and everyone estranged on here knows, is that there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, the ball is totally in their court.

The threaten of a miscarriage would have been devastating, I was told on early in each pregnancy by my children but I genuinely wouldn't have minded if the couple had waited until they were sure all was well, they could have had problems conceiving or anything. That.came before anything else I’m afraid. Girls do confide in their mothers more than a MIL usually. No excuse for their cruel words or actions I know. My dil is lovely but her family and mother came first. If you can stand back for a while maybe the couple can reflect on how they have been with you and you will become a hands on grandmother in time. I hope so.

@Smiless2012
After a fair bit of thought following reading your second post , I’m not willing to put up with my son’s lies , lies about me not his cruelty . I will only see him if I see his son too . I don’t care about the relationship with my DIL although I’d always be tactically cordial if necessary. I’m good at being nice !
After talking to my sister earlier , I was reminded of Dans upbringing. Loads of fun and laughs with mum and dad , cousins to play with , Northern Grandma who we didn’t see as often , family parties , family Xmas and the list goes on . As well as my own heartbreak of not having a relationship with my grandson , it breaks my heart to think of my like grandson and his pretty solitary life . If I am prevented from seeing him , this is causing a full family split because we stick together. My son and his family are out as far as everyone is concerned. My poor grandson will grow up lonely, smothered by possessive parents who are making a big big mistake with the welfare of their son . Don’t they think , don’t they care that little boy will be lonely missing out on all the joys that Dan experienced growing up . They don’t plan letting him go to nursery other than one morning a week - I feel it’s so unfair for him . They think they’re being so clever here when in actual fact they may well raise a very unhappy disfuncional child . The more I think about this the sadder I feel. How could they be so cruel , not only to me , but to their own child . He won’t have the fabulous fun birthday parties , family get togethers etc because his cousins will all be on my side .
I would say “ be careful what you wish for “ here . They clearly haven’t thought this through xxx

@Whiff
Hello I’m new and I hope you have a better time very soon . Take care xx

&agnurse you raise a couple of interesting points here . Something you have failed to acknowledge in the whole post is that in August at the A&E dept, my loss of my beloved partner was so new ( he dropped dead on the 16th of January and unable to cremate him until mid March ) my grief brain and emotions were all over the place . I find out by sheer accident that my DIL is expecting my first grandchild ( it was 11 weeks so not unreasonably early imo ) . I immediately think “ wow new life “ then the realisation that child might be lost triggered feelings of new life being snatched away just like my lovely partner . I knew he was looking forward to eventually becoming a granddad and at 59 he was far too young to die . He would have been such fun . I felt the possibility of this loss on his behalf too . All very complicated feelings which you’d failed to take into account. Additionally, given the fact that my DIL’s family knew ( yes a lot of them ) I did feel very excluded . These are normal human feelings and obviously affect your reaction in such situations. I can assure you that 8 months after my loss , I didn’t feel there was a lot to look forward to. Yes of course I understand this baby is THEIR CHILD and through various methods of abuse from my so and DIL I’ve had this highlighted to me lots of times .

To address this incident with the flowers, I have cats , so would be equally as horrified if possible poisonous flowers were delivered to me . All my son needed to do was chuck the offending bouquet in the bin , give me a ring and talk like an adult about the mix up . No , he decided to embark on another personal vendetta . What’s worse is the fact he’s obviously lied about the treatment costs if £700 . I offered to cover this , requested the invoice which has not been forthcoming. Given he was so annoyed by this sum of money being spent due to my actions ( although I didn’t deliver an incorrect bouquet ) , I would have thought he’d jump at the chance for someone else to foot the bill . So why no invoice? Because he lies . He lies regularly these days , possibly to strengthen his justification of his possible estrangement who knows? I don’t . I didn’t bring him up to tell lies , I didn’t bring him up to abandon his recently bereaved mother and leave her with very little support. He has been callous and cruel at the worst point in my life . These examples are the tip of the iceberg , this behaviour has been well calculated and executed with precision. So please forgive me if I find your point of view very odd. He realises that his behaviour is selfish and unreasonable yet it carries on . Of course should estrangement be the result of my year of heartache then if at any point in the future he changed his mind I’d give him my consideration. This doesn’t mean that he might be too late . It depends how much time passes . It depends on how he explains to me why he is throwing me away like a piece of rubbish . If the reason is not compelling and fair ( if he’s just being malicious) then he may have the door slammed in his face forever and lose the person who has given him 💯 unconditional love and support throughout his life . Sometimes you only get one chance , a second one has to be earned .?

@Smiless2012 you raise so many points that I’ve been considering myself. Yes the obvious issue with the grandson is like you say having him held over me the whole time . Then a possible loss . Truth is , I don’t trust my son any more .

It’s obvious even with the issue re the cat it’s a lie . Otherwise I would have the invoice . It didn’t happen and yes I will challenge him about this when I get my opportunity. Unbelievably I have been told by the mother that my DIL was harassed by me , yes sending flowers alarmed and upset her to such a degree she felt harassed . That’s an insult to real victims of crime . I’m being harassed by unknown men in my HA flat ( pressing the intercom all night to get into the house , plus banging in my flat door when intoxicated) . I’d much prefer a bouquet! I’m currently staying with my dad . My son has refused me a room in his 6 bedroom house a few times since my partner died . I don’t want to sound bitter here .

You’ve described how events unfolded for you and your husband with your son . Good god can’t these man children grow a backbone. They are pathetic as well as selfish. I suppose they don’t realise they’re being manipulated until it’s too late . It’s totally disturbing when anyone mounts a hate campaign with the objective being estrangement of their husband from parents . It makes me wonder what these women actually do to maintain such control. It must be heartbreaking to have the experience of a grandson for 8 months then nothing . In fact it makes me wonder what the motivation behind it is . Why would a woman engineer this hateful behaviour? When I was pregnant with my boy , the entire family were included right from the day I got my positive pregnancy test off the doctor. We were all overjoyed. Sharing in this excitement. My parents were really involved in his life as I worked until he was 5 and we had some really complicated childcare routines between us because with my hours , combined with my mum’ part time job and my dad’s shifts meant a lot of juggling and ships passing in the night . Those were such happy times I would never have dreamed of depriving my family. Then when my sister’s 2 boys followed soon after I just remember so much fun and laughter. I think about my grandson living a solitary quiet life not enjoying the family times we had and it makes me sad . This is all because he will have selfish parents.

I have been advised by my sister to initiate a break myself just to stabilise my worsening mental health issues. I don’t really want to do this because I’d like to leave the door open for reconciliation. I do think it’s pretty inevitable that we will end up estranged . I mean when your wife makes an allegation that ive systematically harassed her by sending unwanted bouquets of flowers ( yes this is true ) I think my son needs to take this criminal act very seriously. How ridiculous is all this . If you receive something that you don’t want , you chuck it in the bin . You don’t add it to the dossier of crimes committed by your MIL . I expect this dossier makes me sound terrible. Last week he called me a monster , I mean how dare he talk to me , his loving mother in this way . I will never tolerate such abuse again no matter what happens. We stay in contact, he smartens up his attitude. If we end up estranged then any reconciliation will be dependant on decency and respect .
I suppose the obvious pitfall of reconciliation is lack of trust . How could you ever trust them not to do it again ? How do you protect yourself from being so vulnerable and stop your heart being broken all over again .
I suppose the longer the estrangement goes on the harder it will be to reconcile- it will be like meeting a stranger. Funny isn’t it how you can have so much love for your child whilst at the same time actively dislike them too . I am thoroughly ashamed to say I’m my son’s mother at this time . He’s was brought up to not tell lies for instance, now that’s all he does . I can only assume that’s the influence of my DIL .
Very sadly I’m actually glad my mum is no longer alive to witness this behaviour. I can’t imagine him getting very far with these antics when Nan was around . She’d be kicking his arse from here to eternity !!

The knowledge that I may well be coming to the end of the road with my son has to a degree lifted a weight off my shoulders. I think it’s because his duplicitous behaviour has sunk so low I’ve detached from it .
Yes it really hurts this knowledge that sending flowers to my DIL ( the harassment) has put the tin lid on my hopes to sort things out , but it’s just another incident in a huge line of justifications for their reasons to cut me out .
What a terribly sad world we live in where living parents and grandparents are simply dispensed with when they are no longer required. Shame on these selfish adult children. What sort of example will our grandchildren be learning like this .
Yes , being a Nan was something I’d looked forward for so long , now the time is here , it simply won’t be happening. Shame on my son . Shame on my DIlL . How could they ?

Ladysuesei

While I can understand that you're upset about a possible estrangement, I can also understand why your son wasn't best pleased at your response to him when you met him in the ER.

This is his wife potentially losing their child. Many couples choose not to announce a pregnancy until 13 weeks due to the lower risk of miscarriage at that point. As a comparison, you might consider how you would feel if your child or partner was in the ER with a life-threatening illness, and your son came in, and the first words out of his mouth were "Why didn't you tell me they were sick? I had to find out from someone else." This is not intended as an attack or to be cruel. It's simply intended to give you some insight into why they might be upset. That child is your grandchild, but first and foremost it is THEIR CHILD.

As far as the flowers, I do think they were a sweet gesture. However, sometimes when someone's perception of another person is already coloured, anything they do - no matter how well-intentioned - can be perceived through that lens. It's also possible that your son and/or DIL perceived you sending flowers to be method of attempting to simply brush the incident under the carpet without addressing the underlying issues. They also might have perceived the inclusion of lilies (not realizing there'd been a mistake) to indicate that you didn't care about them or their pet.

I am not saying these things in an attempt to hurt you. I simply believe that it's helpful to understand both sides of an issue.

Hope you're OK Whiff xx

Sorry not ignoring the new posters but having an upsetting week. Once I sort myself out will try and help and of course give my support to you.

they could

We were both posting at the same time, so I've just seen your latest one Ladys.

Only having contact with your son is doable. Even if you never saw your GC, it's the relationship with your son that is paramount here, and only you can decide if it's worth being lied too, lied about and abused in order to sustain that
relationship.

We have no way of knowing that if we'd responded differently, things may have turned out differently. We never sent our ES another birthday or Christmas card once he'd estranged us, and never reached out to him in any way.

Others have, and some have done so for years but to no avail. You must do what feels right for you.

GP's don't have any legal rights. Children have the right to know their extended family which of course includes GP's, but for you to have any chance of successfully getting a contact order which is rare, you have to show that you had an established and meaningful relationship, prior to the estrangement taking place.

"The parents have the prize don't they, and boy don't they know it" oh yes, they do. We have an email from our ES telling us that they'd never stop us from seeing our GS because they knew how much we loved him.

They did, because we did love him and the could.

Our youngest son was simply wonderful. A lovely little boy, teenager and adult until his wife became pregnant, then things started to change but it was a lot more subtle than what you're experiencing Ladysuisei. It was only when we were eventually estranged that with hindsight, we could see how well planned and executed the entire thing was.

Things deteriorated once our first GC was born and within 8 months we'd been estranged.

It is our belief that his wife is a narcissist and that he was being and continues to be coercively controlled. That said, it is him who is ultimately responsible for estranging us more than 11 years ago. That is how Yogin and I met here on the estrangement thread and have been contributing ever since.

Of course you want your son in your life, we all miss the children who've estranged us, but do you want the person he's become?

Are things likely to change? Well I understand the 'never say never' approach but bearing in mind that even though your GC hasn't even been born yet, the fact that you are being told you'll never see them doesn't bode well does it.

My heart goes out to you and all estranged parents who no longer have their partners in their lives. It's a terrible thing to try to live with even if you're fortunate enough to have a loving and supportive partner to share the burden with.

I'm sorry, but your son is lying too you; he's also lying about you. Why not send a copy of the invoice or the receipt? Answer is because there isn't one, this never happened and even if it had, it's on them for not removing the lilies stamens, not on you.

It's awful to realise that your own child can lie so easily and cruelly but that is a common factor in estrangements. If it were me, I would challenge him. Tell him that unless he provides evidence with an invoice and/or receipt with the vet's details visible, you are unable believe him.

As long as you are prepared to take this abusive behaviour, it will continue and if you are able to see your GC, there's every possibility that the threat of being stopped from seeing him/her, will be held over you like the sword of Damocles for years to come.

Our eldest GS was 8 months old the last time we saw him and we've never seen his brother; they're our only GC. I really do think we were fortunate that we never had the opportunity to form a close bond with the eldest.

Having GC you never really knew and/or never met and being estranged from them is heartbreaking. I can only imagine how much harder it must be to have them taken away, when a real bond and relationship has developed.

You cannot change your son's and his wife's behaviour, you can do nothing to stop them from estranging you if that is what they want. What you can do, is take away the power the have over you. Don't engage any unpleasantness. If you are in contact and the abuse starts, end the call or walk away.

You can refuse to be treated this way but still let him know that you love him and that your door will always be open but things need to change, he needs to change.

@Smiless2012 I’ve had to resort to a bit of lying myself. I’ve told my son ( only by message) that I’ve negotiated a refund for the vet bill due to their mistake. He’s promised to call to see me on Sunday, we speak on Saturday so there’s nothing specific to suggest a change ? I will ask for the vet bill Saturday ready for Sunday and if he’s lying then it will be obvious. Now at this stage the pattern of behaviour does suggest something quite sinister, but he’s never actually told me he wants no contact . Yes contact is limited and it worries me enormously that his wife is pulling the strings . I don’t understand what’s happening but I really don’t think he’d just walk away without saying anything. After all , he’s waiting for my dad’s inheritance ( terrible I know - he probably won’t be getting it now actually) . He’s also keeping in touch with me albeit only at weekends and in his own . That suits me fine . I’ve accepted that contact with my grandson is going to be difficult to negotiate. Maybe impossible for a while but I will be patient, after all I’ve done nothing wrong . Someone told me about grandparents rights , but I think that’s Pie in the Sky . The parents have the prize don’t they , and boy don’t they know it

@Allsorts yes I know INTERFLORA should be footing the bill , but so far I’ve not received the invoice requested from my son . Now this makes me think it’s a lie which is beginning to concern me greatly. I can’t bear this situation, I am such a sensitive soul I need my son in my life

@Yogi thank you . I’ve been in touch with INTERFLORA and they are useless. No telephone number just this chat bot . I won’t get any joy there . I’m beginning to run out if options x