Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life

It's always a shame when children get caught in the middle and lose one half of their family as a result isn't it DL.

Had a good singing lesson this morning. Sometimes a man's lesson follows mine and he always just walks in before mine has finished, and plonks himself down. I never do that, if mine isn't the first lesson of the day, although it usually us, I always wait for the student to stop singing before I go in.

Not everyone feels comfortable singing in front of others, and starting at 9.00 am isn't the best time of day, especially in the winter. It doesn't usually bother me but today I started learning a new operatic piece, the end of which needs some work so let's just say 'it aint that pretty'.

When only the orchestra was playing before I sung again, I did look at him and say 'this next bit isn't very good'. He was very complimentary as he has been in the past, I just wish he wouldn't do it.

Ladysuisei - yes, sounds a good idea. Concentrate on your house move, and don’t react outwardly to your son’s carry on.

I’ve found, over the years, that smiling and gazing blandly at those trying to exert control works well. It rips away their power.

Whatever I’m feeling, I don’t let it show - then they have nowhere to go with the argument.

You might find, hopefully, when the child is born, that your son and DIL have more to think about than silly arguments.

It would be a shame if a blameless child lost contact with one half of the family.

Best wishes. 💐

@Diamondlily I’m sorry that your husband has died , it’s a very emotional and difficult time isn’t it . I’m also glad you have a supportive daughter .

I totally agree with you that it’s none of my AS’s business what I choose to do with my partners ashes . I also agree that he is a bully and I am allowing this to happen to a certain extent. For family reasons, I’ve decided to play the long game and continue seeing him . I won’t be the one showing him the door put it this way . That will have to be his doing - I will not be responsible for causing a family rift then . My entire family will stick by me and have already said that if my son prevents me from having a relationship with his son ( who isn’t even due yet ) they won’t see the child either . I won’t be responsible for causing this . He will be . Then my conscience will be clear . He’s causing great hurt to my dad who’s 83 and by causing this rift he will effectively be stopping my dad from having a relationship with his only great grandchild. I will find this so difficult to forgive, because my parents have always been so good to my AS and my sisters 2 boys .

@smiles oh that must have been awful seeing your EAS and GC walking by - also human nature that you must have also felt angry ( and maybe other things too ) . Living in close proximity like that would never have worked would it . Well I can attest that this sort of emotional torture definitely affects mental health to the point where the knock on effect to your physical health is inevitable. I’m feeling mentally worse than ever and because the medication I’m taking isn’t agreeing with me I also feel physically unwell all the time ..Maybe I’d feel better if my situation wasn’t so bad who knows .

Well unfortunately the plumber has failed to get rid of the air in our pipes. He said if it didn't work we might need a new stop tap something or other (my words not his) replacing in the top floor loo's cylinder tank.

Soooo, I 'phoned them again and said we want both doing because if we only get the stop tap replaced and that isn't the cause, they'll only have to come back again.

Who'd have thought having air in one's pipes could be such a problem .

Madgran77

LadyS I am glad that "calm" went pretty well for you. I am also sorry that things went pear shaped when he raised the issue ( from his perspective) regarding your partner. A few things that might be helpful for you to think about as I believe you still wish to try and rescue this relationship whilst he says he wishes to see you:

1. Your calmness and non engagement in the angst will be disarming and possibly uncomfortable for someone who is angry, especially if that is not the response they normally get.

2. The reference to your partner seems to me to be a direct "pressing your buttons" comment .(ie subjects that make you emotional) ..in order to elicit the more "normal" emotional response that your son is used to

3. I think your son needs that emotional response from you at the moment for a number of possible reasons: (you know him best though and may think of others)

* to convince him you are hearing his pain ....from his perspective

to justify the anger that he is feeling, from *his perspective

to get back at you for what you have done to him (from *his perspective)

*to hear you disagree with his perspective which enables more anger and more justification

* to elicit a clear demonstration of listening, emotion, acceptance and apology for all the things you have done from hisperspective

So in light of those reasons and probably more can I suggest:

*in advance of speaking again, think for yourself about any "buttons" subjects that he might press to elicit emotion. Then practice the same "calm" strategy regarding those subjects ... as in :

Comment: "I think you have let your partner down by ....ashes ....!"

Response from you: "Oh, do you! and then look at him and wait OR "I see!" look at him and wait OR "Oh do you. I am happy with my decision but thanks for sharing your thoughts" and then look at him calmly and wait.

Whatever comes in response carry on with similar; no justification; no argument. Just acceptance of his view and look at him.

He has no right per se to criticise your decisions regarding the ashes. It is your decision and you have made it and you don't have to justify it.

I know none of this is easy but it might change the dynamic over time for you.

💐

@madgran I needed to quote this so I don’t miss anything!!
Yes he’s not used to being disarmed - he’s used to me being too emotional though . I think the calm approach is working particularly as he accuses me of being hysterical.
He most *definitely criticises me about the ashes because he knows full well he will upset me . He knows he is pushing my buttons here which is cruel but I understand what he’s trying to achieve.

Yes all the responses you’ve suggested are perfectly valid ones from his perspective and ones that would be “ normal “ for me . He knows just how hurtful I find any criticism of my partner- after all he knows how much I still love him and always will .

It’s a bit like a game of cat and mouse actually. He’s always trying to catch me out and a bit of temporary respite with “ calm “ is quite nice for me !!

Yes he definitely wants me to feel pain but this pain is disproportionate to the incident which he SAYS has triggered this whole issue . I really can understand both my AS and his wife being upset by what they interpreted by what I said , to inflict this level of pain with intent on your mum just feels so unnecessary. I do get what you say though .
He does love confrontation and is more comfortable with this than calm conversation with me . I’ve decided I won’t engage in screaming matches which is what he wants to justify his anger and also to enable him to justifiably say I’m getting hysterical and shouting etc . I am fed up with shouting because life is upsetting enough at the moment. He loves shouting, particularly shouting over me which is horrible.

Yes the solutions which you come up with are good ones so I’ll be practicing again . I don’t feel I should be justifying my decisions regarding the ashes for many readers. Mainly because I haven’t hee ready mentally to face up to the loss . Also I’m not quite sure where I want them interred and what sort of memorial. This is none of his business. I’m happy with the way you’ve advised me to deal with this response though . I do think it’s important that over time the dynamic changes between us because frankly it’s exhausting at the moment. I constantly feel unwell worrying about these interactions and also the situation in general., I am also missing him and his wife even though they have treated me badly at the lowest point in my life . I realise this is not a grief forum ( I have been on one of those ) but either people have huge support and compassion from their families and children OR a huge death in the family causes a divide. This is a shame and I wish I was on the side of the compassion but there we are , I can’t change them can I . I can only change my own response to their behaviour.

You are right Madgran , I am trying so hard to try to salvage this relationship because I really believe in time we will all feel and think differently.
Thank you once again for good advice xx. *

For me, our move has made the old adage that when one door closes another door opens, a reality.

It really wasn't what Mr. S. wanted, although like me he fell in love with the house the first time we saw it, he knew I just couldn't stand living where we were any longer. It was beginning to affect my mental health.

Toward the end of the first week we moved in, I dissolved into tears. He looked horrified and asked if I was regretting the decision, but they weren't tears of regret they were tears of relief to know that I'd never again have to worry about seeing our ES, his wife and the children every time I left the house.

@smiles that’s lovely that you enjoy where you live but also sad that it’s due to your estrangement. The weather is a bit nicer here today , sadly no sea though! xxx

Morning everyone.

That's good to know Ladysu, thank you.

Waiting for the plumber to arrive this morning. We have air in our water pipes and not only is it driving us mad, it's getting worse. Sometimes it feels as if the entire house is shaking and the noise has to be heard to be believed.

We've tried several 'remedies' we found on line but to avail, and the one which may well work required a degree of very minor plumbing, which despite being fab at nearly everything DIY, is not one of Mr. S.'s fortes.

We once had a problem with the downstairs loo in our other house, can't remember what it was but his attempt to fix it resulted in water gushing every where so we had to turn the water off, until the plumber came.

He was someone we always used and when he'd done the repair made me promise to never let him touch anything to do with plumbing again.

It was a lovely afternoon yesterday, so we took the dogs for a walk and decided to drive along the sea front before coming home. Part of the road was closed off due to a very high tide and huge waves, so we drove round to the other end and the waves were so spectacular, washing right up and over the wall, that we sat in the car a safe distance away, just to watch them.

This is such a great place to live and to think we'd never have made the move if we hadn't been estranged.

@smiless you didn’t offend me at all ! It’s been a really difficult couple of days actually and I do wonder if I’m doing the right thing . I’m keeping on at the moment simply because I don’t want to give AS any ammunition to be able to say I asked for estrangement. That , for me would be the worst thing .
@madgran yes I can see this technique is helping me diffuse any immediate tension , only it does give my AS the opportunity to get in there with something different to have a potential argument about . I’m keeping things going though until a point in time when I can see for myself exactly what is going on here . Is he playing games with me I wonder ? Other people in the wider family ( such as my DIL’s mother ) not aware I’ve been told no relationship with CG ? This confuses me because normally she knows absolutely everything. It’s all very confusing and very upsetting. Thanks both xxx

You're right about the benefit of hearing about different approaches Madgran. Despite the similarities, in many ways our individual experiences and how we feel best to approach them, are unique to us

Very true Smileless

I understand that you're waiting to see what happens when the baby arrives Ladysu and that you're playing the long game. I apologise if my last post has offended you as that wasn't my intention.

It's good that he wasn't quite as disrespectful today so the technique does seem to be working and there's still some time before the baby arrives to work with it, and hopefully things will continue to improve.

It's good to know that you're feeling a bit more optimistic.

You're right about the benefit of hearing about different approaches Madgran. Despite the similarities, in many ways our individual experiences and how we feel best to approach them, are unique to us.

Actually he wasn’t quite as disrespectful today with my new technique. I’m going to perfect this (??!) over the next couple of weeks

Sounds good LadyS. Keep going and it will help you decide what to do re the disrespectful stuff within the context of where things are with him then. At least you have a plan that you feel is a way forward for you.

* Smileless* I understand your point. I would say that over time the "calm" strategy I describe potentially leads to the opportunity to make clear re behaviours etc but in order for the message to be heard the anger has to be defused, otherwise the message about disrespectful will not be "heard" anyway and will just make things worse.

. Absolutely this is about a long term relationship not just the next few weeks. Its playing the long game I suppose which might mean not engaging in the shorter term angst. But as I said I do get your point and I do agree with the message re behaviours being clearly given, when felt appropriate.

But each to our own way for our own situation and LadyS only you can decide what works best for you and make your own version of dealing with this going forward. Hearing different approaches to the situation often aiming for the same end can hopefully help you with that

@smiles you are so right here . I’m waiting until the situation is clearer when the baby arrives. Actually he wasn’t quite as disrespectful today with my new technique. I’m going to perfect this (??!) over the next couple of weeks then start using the one for when he’s rude to me . Obviously once I distance myself from him a bit , I will care less what he thinks then be more confident tacking his abusive attitude head on . I have a plan .
Yes I’m absolutely fuming that he made me feel so bad about my partners remains . In fact , he believed once you are gone you’re gone so I know he would understand why I have left him in storage . It’s safe because of my housing situation at the mo. Better there than putting him in my wardrobe I think . That’s worse for me .
Now we come onto what happens long term . Well I certainly won’t be putting up with shenanigans for ever more . This is short term until as a family we know what’s likely to happen. It’s a shame I have to put up with this but it’s twice a week and I can handle this . Anyway by letting him loose in all those silences within the conversation, I’ve noticed straight away how it’s taking his power away . I was in charge until ashesgate this morning. Then I cried - I won’t let anyone criticise my relationship with my OH , we were great together and my AS will not spoil this for me .
So I carry on . There’s been no reason to suspect he wants to go NC , on the contrary he want to see me next weekend. As far as I’m concerned once we get past Sunday and onto Monday I’ve largely forgotten about the pain he’s caused me . I wouldn’t want anyone to think I’m a doormat because I’m not . I just have a plan which , for the time being I’ve decided to stick to . Surprisingly I feel a bit more optimistic about this than I did a week ago thanks .

@Allsorts well my AS is the executor for the Will so he made the arrangements with the undertaker . Of course this was a while back when we were getting on better .
Also re the child . Well I’ve been threatened with no relationship with the baby going back as far as September. So it’s a case of my AS ( and sadly my DIL too ) being malicious and vindictive. So it’s a case of every time I do something they don’t like ( which is normally something trivial ) they bring this threat out . I will need to start rebuilding my life to distance myself from my AS . My anxiety prevents me from being too adventurous so in the past we’ve been a close family unit . I need to be brave don’t I ?

I'm sorry it didn't go better Ladysu. As I posted earlier, although I understand that you are looking at the bigger picture, there's no way I could put myself in a position where my son continually verbally abused and disrespected me.

I agree with DL, what you do with you partner's ashes have nothing to do him. He is bullying you and I'm sorry, but will continue to do so as long as you let him.

I do agree Madgran that calmness is key here but what bothers me is, there's a fine line between Ladysu letting her son know that she hears him, and accepting his view regardless (apologies if I've got that wrong) because this enables his behaviour.

IMO it's important to justify one's actions, whatever they may be, but do so calmly when those actions are being questioned
and criticised, to the extent that Ladsu's are by her son.

This isn't just about their relationship in the next few weeks, it's about their relationship moving forward and for Ladysu to avoid walking on eggshells for the rest of her life, I feel very strongly that her son needs to start treating her with some respect.

In order to do so, he needs to be told when he's being disrespectful as he seems unable or unwilling to work this out for himself.

LadyS I am glad that "calm" went pretty well for you. I am also sorry that things went pear shaped when he raised the issue ( from his perspective) regarding your partner. A few things that might be helpful for you to think about as I believe you still wish to try and rescue this relationship whilst he says he wishes to see you:

1. Your calmness and non engagement in the angst will be disarming and possibly uncomfortable for someone who is angry, especially if that is not the response they normally get.

2. The reference to your partner seems to me to be a direct "pressing your buttons" comment .(ie subjects that make you emotional) ..in order to elicit the more "normal" emotional response that your son is used to

3. I think your son needs that emotional response from you at the moment for a number of possible reasons: (you know him best though and may think of others)

* to convince him you are hearing his pain ....from his perspective

to justify the anger that he is feeling, from *his perspective

to get back at you for what you have done to him (from *his perspective)

*to hear you disagree with his perspective which enables more anger and more justification

* to elicit a clear demonstration of listening, emotion, acceptance and apology for all the things you have done from hisperspective

So in light of those reasons and probably more can I suggest:

*in advance of speaking again, think for yourself about any "buttons" subjects that he might press to elicit emotion. Then practice the same "calm" strategy regarding those subjects ... as in :

Comment: "I think you have let your partner down by ....ashes ....!"

Response from you: "Oh, do you! and then look at him and wait OR "I see!" look at him and wait OR "Oh do you. I am happy with my decision but thanks for sharing your thoughts" and then look at him calmly and wait.

Whatever comes in response carry on with similar; no justification; no argument. Just acceptance of his view and look at him.

He has no right per se to criticise your decisions regarding the ashes. It is your decision and you have made it and you don't have to justify it.

I know none of this is easy but it might change the dynamic over time for you.

💐

I can’t understand Ladysui, why you are discussing this with your son, the grandchild isn’t even due for weeks. Also,why would he care about his step father’s remains, when you’have told him they are in storage. You and he need distance from each other.

I lost my DH last year. He wasn’t the father of my kids, but he was a wonderful step-dad/grandad.

I have my DHs ashes in a cupboard - there they will stay until I die, then DD will scatter our ashes together.

She supports this every inch of the way. But, if she didn’t, she’d be given short shrift!

What you do, and when, with your late partners ashes has nothing to do with your son, or anyone else.

He is bullying you - you need to stand strong.

It’s a cliche - but we are only treated as we allow ourselves to be.

If he can’t support his own mother with this, then that says more about him than it will ever say about you.

Do what makes you happy.

Best wishes 💐

@Smilles yes putting myself through hell for the bigger picture. Still a big NO to any contact with baby GC . Today’s reason was I said that by accepting a gift from me AS was greedy . Don’t know where that came from . Did pretty well on cool calm and collected @madgran , however things went pear shaped when AS verbally attacked me for choices I’ve made for my late partner’s ashes . I have kept them in storage as my accommodation isn’t secure. Not been well enough to face interment yet . Was told I’d let my partner down by not attending to this sooner . I’m heartbroken by his callous attitude and the disrespect he shows towards me . Anyone on here wanting to judge me , perhaps saying I deserve estrangement, please try to imagine walking in my shoes for a while . This is torturous. My AS is cruel and merciless to the point of narcissism. I am beginning to wonder if he is following in the footsteps of his father . I use the word narcissism as I suspect there might be merit in this . Obviously I don’t know - I hope these traits are a passing phase and will disappear as quickly as they appeared.

Smileless2012

*Whiff well in that case I'm glad you didn't post, they're certainly not worth getting banned for.

I sometimes wonder what a psychologist would make of some of the vitriol aimed at EP's/EGP's, especially when it comes from someone whose estranged a parent(s) or whose partner has estranged theirs. To my untrained eye, there does seem to be an awful lot of projection going on.

Who'd have thought that a thread about gifts to GC that went on to discussing EGP's leaving their EGC memory boxes, could inspire such nastiness and bitterness?

Goodness Ladysu. I understand that you're looking at the bigger picture and hoping that you will be able to see your baby GC, but I simply couldn't put myself through that.

Sad but not surprised DL that Miss D continues to cause havoc. It's good news that your GS and his family are in regular contact and spending significant time with his daughter.

I am glad lot here still have their knights that's such a lovely thing to say Whiff xx. I'm glad and grateful that I still have mine.

Well, I didn’t get on the thread because it was getting odder, but I have to confess that DD and I have started a little memory box for the baby - in case the court should rule against contact.

Hopefully, it won’t be needed.

But, no, I wouldn’t knock a memory box - the recipient, as an adult, would have the choice whether to accept it or not.

My grandfather was killed in the war, so I never knew him, but I’ve got some mementos of him - they are part of my family history.🙂

Whiff

DiamondLily sorry you are still having problems with Miss D but thankfully the child is safe. Glad the adoptive grandmother is happy for you to have contact with the little one. Once a month isn't much but it's a start and at your daughter's house which no doubt will be brimming with toys for her to play with and surrounded with love.

Children grow so quickly and soon have a mind of their own from an early age . I know my grandson's even at 6 and 3 definitely do. And seeing them I imagine what my other 3 grandson's are up to .

I think you are coping brilliantly as you are grieving for your darling man and I know you wish he was there to give his support. Even a cuddle can make the world seem right but unfortunately many of us don't get the cuddle from the one person we want. The one person who would fight dragons for us.
I am glad lot here still have their knights . 🤗💐

Hi, Whiff…no, it’s not easy to push past idiots like Miss D without DH here.

She makes the most awful allegations, which have to be responded to.

One gem was that I’d hastened the death of DH by abuse and neglect of him. The assessor had to put the allegation to me for response.

Jeez…I resisted the urge to fly into one. I did a calm EMail, scanning a copy of his death certificate, and giving her all the details of our GP and hospital (both of whom knew us) for their opinions.

Gawd, it did infuriate me though.

The next one was that I was a “narcissistic psychopath” who’d threatened to kill the baby.

Narcissist, as a medical term, is so over used I don’t even know what it is nowadays, and I barely have the energy to get slightly cross, let alone be a psychotic killer lol 🙄

But, she’s a complete head case, and she’s undermined her own credibility by these insane accusations.

The social workers, assessors, solicitors and judge all get that- we just have to go through due process, and that’s how it is.

The judge pointed out that we all presented as a close, loving family with no issues at all.

We’re all getting accused of things and have just got to the point of eye rolling and refute.

Hope you’re well.💐

*Whiff well in that case I'm glad you didn't post, they're certainly not worth getting banned for.

I sometimes wonder what a psychologist would make of some of the vitriol aimed at EP's/EGP's, especially when it comes from someone whose estranged a parent(s) or whose partner has estranged theirs. To my untrained eye, there does seem to be an awful lot of projection going on.

Who'd have thought that a thread about gifts to GC that went on to discussing EGP's leaving their EGC memory boxes, could inspire such nastiness and bitterness?

Goodness Ladysu. I understand that you're looking at the bigger picture and hoping that you will be able to see your baby GC, but I simply couldn't put myself through that.

Sad but not surprised DL that Miss D continues to cause havoc. It's good news that your GS and his family are in regular contact and spending significant time with his daughter.

I am glad lot here still have their knights that's such a lovely thing to say Whiff xx. I'm glad and grateful that I still have mine.

DiamondLily sorry you are still having problems with Miss D but thankfully the child is safe. Glad the adoptive grandmother is happy for you to have contact with the little one. Once a month isn't much but it's a start and at your daughter's house which no doubt will be brimming with toys for her to play with and surrounded with love.

Children grow so quickly and soon have a mind of their own from an early age . I know my grandson's even at 6 and 3 definitely do. And seeing them I imagine what my other 3 grandson's are up to .

I think you are coping brilliantly as you are grieving for your darling man and I know you wish he was there to give his support. Even a cuddle can make the world seem right but unfortunately many of us don't get the cuddle from the one person we want. The one person who would fight dragons for us.
I am glad lot here still have their knights . 🤗💐