In hindsight, do you think there was a way to have prevented estrangement?

As others have said you need to get on with your own life. your children would probably love to see you getting out and about and I'm sure your relationship would improve.
Do you like walking - there are probably several groups in your area.
The U3A (University of the Third Age) have several avtivities going on and regular meetings.
Also your local Age UK usually have classes for various things.
Check the internet for your area and good luck
in making new friends to fill your life.

Violetsky- absolutely brilliant advice: love smile and don’t treat your children as you burden carriers - they are much too young for that. Been there and done that so speak whereof I know what.

Gran16 .

I am estranged from my adult children and because of that I only see the eldest 2 of my 5 grandchildren (through their other parent) who are all under 14. Their father and I divorced amicably when they were between 11 and 15 and he showed interest in them until he got a new girlfriend, I had several failed relationships as I couldnt pick and choose when I wanted to be a parent.
You do your best for them, support them as much as you can but ultimately you can't (and shouldn't) control what happens as they become adults. Mine left home, came back when things didn't work out for them, and left again when it suited them. When they left home they forgot I existed unless I was of use to them so I decided it was time for me to carve a life for myself again and have a good relationship but they didn't like that even though they had relationships and childen themselves. It appears that their mother should always be available when needed but its OK for their father to do as he likes.
Not sure this is much help but I bent over backwards to support my kids even in adulthood and never expected this so who knows. Worrying about it now won't change a thing but make sure you're not left alone with nothing, waiting for them to throw you the odd 'titbit' from their new lives as and when it suits them. I hope for much better for you and anyone else on this thread but there comes a point when you have to stop living your life for your kids 😔😘

Welcome Dazy. Don’t worry about what might never happen. I was always the disciplinarian in our house. I was the ‘nag’. Dad was the ‘nice’ parent, especially in my daughter’s eyes. But he left me for someone else and he saw my 3 AC occasionally (youngest was still in school). Now they are married and have children of their own. To their credit, they do take the little ones to see their Grandad -( although I hate it that they call her Nan). I wish things were different but…..
You have had a hard time. I hope you enjoy your teenagers - difficult, but lovely xx

You say ypur children have been and are the reason for your existence. Your children are oldet teenagers. Perhaps uou are smothering them, especially the daughtet you mention. Perhaps you are needing to pull away, accept your children will have different views from you on many things, including your ex, their Dad. Don't keep on trying to fix it, leave your daughter to come round at her own pace. Find something for yourself that will be a distraction for you.

I feel for you having had a rotten time. But as a social worker I saw lots of families in crisis & I don't think there is any normal things to grumble about, presumably your ex has different standards & maybe some of that laid back style would see you through this period?
I used to let my kids 'suffer' from their own lack of action, ie 'mum I've got no xxx to wear today!!' me 'Let me show you how the washing machine works so you can do it in future.'
I saw myself as training them to be adults & if their self care was lacking, they felt the effects. The teenage years don't last & they will grow out of this.
I just feel it is too easy to be too critical and anyone would naturally shy away from that. Arrange more nice times for yourself and enjoy your young people more, ensure they enjoy their time with you even if home standards slacken, help them see you as a friend, not a nag & you won't feel that you are in danger of loosing them, which will help you too.

If you fear that you may have lost them, it's worth thinking about how to talk to them in a way which might avoid a damaging split. It will only work if you are able to let go of 'stating your case' - saying what you have done for them, for instance, suggesting they should be grateful. I am only saying these things as examples, they may not be what you might say - the overarching point is to seek to hear them as fully as you can, not challenge them or justify your self. It might help first to talk it through with a sensible friend (no drama queen!) or even find a good counsellor. Then you have had a safe place to express your feelings and be heard. After that you might feel ready and able to say to them something along the lines of this : "I can see that you feel angry with me and I realise that I have sometimes said things which could have led to your feeling like that. I am sorry. I would like to understand how you feel and how I could respond in a way which worked better for you in the future" Not easy in a way, but also could be a relief - put down your pain, your feeling of being misunderstood, your own anger - and just speak truthfully and with acceptance of your own part in whatever is going on. No parent gets everything right - do not beat yourself up - and few parents have the courage and insight to speak to their children in the way I am suggesting here. But I think you might well be able to do this - find the courage to feel the fear and do it anyway. (That is the title of a paper back book by Susan Jeffers - you might find it helpful) I wish you well.

Yes, if I had kept my mouth shut every time he told me to I am sure I'd have made a wonderful doormat for my son for years to come. He really didn't want a parent with a mouth, so he ditched me.

MayBee70

I’m many years on from where you are Dazy but I struggle with the fact that my children ( who were also my world) seem to socialise far more with their father and his family, even though he left us for someone else and I’m still the one that provides childcare etc. I wonder if, when their father still lived with you, you were still the disciplinarian ( I’ve always thought that that always falls upon one parent and not the other) and it’s just continuing in that way? Can’t really offer advice other than try to make a life for yourself and be happy.

When couples split up , so often the one with whom the children live becomes the disciplinarian while the other simply takes them on fun outings. It is hard being the one who has to deal with the day to day! Teenagers can be challenging in every home. I once lost my temper with my son and shut him out of the house without any shoes on in the winter. I told him to phone his dad and get him to come and get him! He phoned and his dad refused!

My kids are now in their 30's and both have said on occasions what a rubbish dad he was! They both see him though, not very often as they live at a distance, and both are aware that it is always on his terms. He doesn't often put himself out for them. He was a good dad when they were young but at the end of the day he always put his own needs ahead of everyone else's.

There is good advice here about building a life for yourself, as they won't be living with you forever. Make sure they know they are loved. As they get older they with recognise things for what they are. Try not to react when MiL speaks ill of you.
I was lucky that mine treated me fairly, though she finds it hard to believe either of her sons are less than perfect. I have had to set her straight once or twice when she has complained about things to do with them, but we still stay in contact and have a reasonable relationship.

Good luck!

I do think you need normal household rules.

So, if it required it, I'd cheerfully nag them about loading/unloading the dishwasher, bring down any plates etc from their bedrooms, and bring down dirty washing.

They wanted clean plates, clean clothes, and as I was working full time, I didn't have time to be their slaves as well. 🙄

Phones were a different saga when my AC were teenagers. There were no mobiles, and I wasn't having them tying up the home phone for hours (and running up the bill), talking to those they'd seen at school all day. So, I bought a home pay phone. That sorted it out.

But, the rest I was pretty laid back about.🙂

I found it best not complaining, not giving opinions or advice, letting them work out how to accomplish what they truly wanted.

I think some mums get trapped into doing things they don't want to do. For example: long ago a poster complained to driving her child's back to uni on motorways with roundabouts, silly and ridiculous complaint. Just don't. BUT, if you allow yourself to be cajoled, don't whinge on and on.

Ask little and don't compare or complain.

We never enquired as to their future partners family matters - know what is your business and what is decidedly private.

I used to ask my children what they would do if they were the parent when it came down to things like time spent on the phone, revising, etc. I would explain my reasoning and then see if we could broker a way forward. For really serious things, if push came to shove, I used to tell them I understood why they felt the way they did but I wouldn't be a good parent if I allowed things to continue.
Most of what VioletSky said at Fri 18-Aug-23 13:02:36 seemed spot on especially the bit about not badmouthing the grandparents no matter what they said about you. If you keep any negative thoughts to yourself, I think your children will learn to see for themselves where the land lies. My daughter was sure that her father and father's family were the bee's knees but as she grew older (especially when she had her own child) she recognised that there was one family/parent she could rely upon and it wasn't them. They bad mouthed me every step of the way and I didn't retaliate. Now she says to me, "What they don't realise is I was there and I know you aren't like that." If there was a child I thought I'd be estranged with and I worried about it continually, it was her but we've come through it all and we still have a relationship. Just always try to keep the lines of communication open, even if you feel saddened by some of the unfair things that are levelled at you because without communication, things can't and won't change.

A lot of wonderful advice there already.

I agree with finding a club to join where you can make friends and find a new hobby. You are still young. Do a dance class, an craft class, learn a new language. There is a lot on offer.

Speak to your children like adults. Find a relaxing moment where you all reminiscence and then add "things didn't always work out as we wanted, you know with your Dad and me and you were still young at the time so it was not always easy to talk about everything - but if you ever have any questions, don't forget you can ask me anytime" something like that and it will give them permission and opportunity to come back at any time and ask.

Do not force too much "checking" on your kids. Let them be adults and live their live. If they have moved out then contact them ever so often (not daily) and start with the opening of "just wanted to check in how your doing" or with "I just thought about ... and thought I give you a ring". Speak at equal terms about what you have done and ask some questions about how they are doing.

Don't be hurt if they are short sometimes as they are young and have very busy lives. They mean no offence but whatever they are doing often takes priority in life. It will change over time.

I think Pascal30 gave excellent succinct advice. Continue to love them, see them as approaching adulthood and treat them accordingly even though they may be challenging, find other people and interests, and let your children go. Show them that you know they have to make their own choices - you do not have to tell them what to do. You cannot make them do or be anything - but you can imply by your words and behaviour that you value and respect them. Focus on listening and understanding, not telling, and you may find over time that things feel very different.

Hi my sons are both in their 30s now with their own families. Dad left the same way thinking his grass was greener and inlaws used to do all the same but my boys would come home and tell me and I used to say to them everyone has a different story to tell their is the truth and then their is what they believe. Yes we’ve had our disagreements what parent doesn’t but they always take my side. I used to scream and shout at them but then one day I wasn’t it’s called growing up lol and ex Mil no longer with us and they dad only bothers when he’s not got a Gf one day they will move out and you will be alone you need to make a life for yourself. Pick a hobby sit in coffee shop someone will talk to you or ask lasses at work if you can join them on night out line dancing etc when they out ask yourself what will i do when they don’t come back look at four walls or will l ????

In my professional life as a teacher of the pupils in their late teens I have seen a lot of situations like yours, and I think you may be able to prevent the estrangement you feel threatened by if you act now.

First, stop nagging your daughter to get off her phone and study. Doing so is obviously not working. And it won't. No teenager (and very few adults) has ever stopped doing anything because they were nagged.

You have made your point to her, now leave it to her teachers to follow it up, if the time she spends on her phone or on anything else is affecting her studies.

You can ask her teacher for a progress report if you are seriously concerned about how she is doing in school.

Next point; Find an adult whom you honestly can discuss the problems confronting you that have no relation to your children, plus the situation between you and the children's father and grandmother.

No child of divorced parents should be forced to listen to one parent complaining about the other, or about a grandmother whom they are fond of.

Nor can you reasonably expect teenagers to be interested in, or have the experience to comment usefully upon the other problems you mention. You are concerned about these and find them wearying, but you need a contempory to discuss them with, not your children.

It is fine telling the children something along the lines of, "I am worried about our neighbours' attitude." but please don't expect or demand that your children know what to do about it.

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but my life is hard too, right now.

Now is the time for you to start letting go of your babies by realising they are nearly grown up and instead of regretting this, beginning to think of what you want to do with your time.

If you feel mentally fragile, go and get professional help.

Then when you feel stronger, engage more in your work, and less in your children's affairs. Now is the time to start letting them do their own washing, cooking an evening meal once or twice a week, balancing their own budget for phone, travel expenses and so on, so when they leave home they can cope, and you know what you are going to do the day they move out.

If you can avoid being the over-protective mum now, you will be able to establish a good relationship to your adult chidren, even if the road through their adolesence is hard at time. It is a hard road to travel.

Life is never one size fits all. Each situation and family is its own. Sometimes families go through rough patches. My advice would be to stay away from forums that may lead you to start looking at your situation through the lens of a group. Your family is not anyone else’s. Your reasons for family friction are not the same as others you may read about. The personalities involved are not the same. The family dynamics are not the same. Instead, I would seek family counselling or therapy. This way, your individual circumstances can be looked at and discussed with an objective party. Reading estrangement forums can negatively impact your mindset into believing estrangement is inevitable. Nothing is set in stone! Your future is not determined by reading other people’s stories!

I’d also caution against constantly ruminating on the negative. Perspective is always necessary. Constantly reliving hurt can stagnant forward movement emotionally. Take life a day at a time.

Revision time, limiting 'phone time (no mobiles when ours were that age thank goodness), tidying bedrooms and helping around the house are all perfectly normal requests Dazy.

DS always objected but our ES never did.

Sounds like most of it is the usual stroppy teenager routine, aided and assisted by your ex MIL.

But, you do need to start building a life a bit distanced from your children - at some point, they will want to "spread their wings and fly" and a needy parent often causes conflicts.

Nothing wrong with nagging then about "normal" stuff - contrary to their own beliefs, they don't know it all.

I wouldn't worry about estrangement yet - just find some hobbies, interests and friends and make your own bit of life.

Best wishes 💐

Communicate

Find out what they aren't happy with.

Practice active listening, don't defend or make excuses, acknowledge their feelings because even if you do not agree with what they say, those feelings are real

Then take away what they have said to your therapist and discuss there what you can change in the relationship reasonably and what you can't.

Another important one, especially for teenagers, is don't make them carry your burdens. You want a good relationship with them as a mother, not as a friend. So don't lean on them too much. Make sure you lean on friend.

With relationships with their paternal side especially, don't speak badly of those family members. It's ok if they come to you with something that is said to say "no that's not true" but resist saying anything bad back.

I hope things get better for you

You seem to have a lot of sad events happen but no-one to share the grief and offer support. Be kind to yourself and try to find things that make you happy and also a balanced, fulfilling life. Let the kids know that you love them but they are old enough to make decisions regarding phones, studying etc. and take a step back. Good luck!

I agree 100% with everyone who says create your own life. It is time to give to yourself and allow them to blossom into the adults they are going to be.

A heartfelt thank you for these very comforting replies. I'm actually jotting down key points from this thread that ring true for me.
MercuryQueen yes I have a therapist but feel I probably need a bereavement counsellor.
MayBee70 yes I was always the responsible parent and he was more or less a 'happy visitor ' -no real parenting input whatsoever, absorbed in his own world...and yes it feels quite sad that they're now drawn to his laid-back aura and prefer to be in his company.
Hithere things like "it's time to revise , we need to set some limits on your phone , monthly room tidy , help around house , no it's not ok for your girlfriend to be eating lunch and dinner here everyday...can we agree on designated days ... Etc

Grief can be so hard and overwhelming. I’m sorry for your losses. Do you have a therapist? It can be a massive help to have someone help you through, and, they can help you navigate the parenting issues as well.