Gifts to GC when estranged

In your opinion it is potentially harmful behaviour VS. What about the potential harm done to a child who is no longer able to see the GP's they know and love because their parents have estranged them?

I've often seen comments on estrangement threads when EGP's are talking about the GC they're unable to see, that what their GC have never know, they wont miss.

I disagree, and I think the program on tv at the moment about AC seeking their sperm donor fathers shows that this isn't necessarily the case.

Despite I'm sure, although I haven't watched it, having had good childhoods and being raised by loving parents and families, they want to know about the man who provided the sperm that was 50% responsible for their existence.

Some of EGC will want to know who we were, what we looked like and if we ever thought about them. If they do and a memory box gives them that information that will be a good thing. If they don't, they'll simply get rid of it and never view the contents, just like any child whose biological father was a sperm donor, wont want to know anything about him either.

A lovely post Granniesunite which I'm sure the OP will find helpful.

I do understand and have listened to others perspectives, I have said several times "That intentions do not guarantee outcomes"

I also suggested some safe alternatives

What I am saying is that there is potential harm caused to their own family members by not looking beyond their own perspective

And people who cannot look beyond their own perspectives are putting their feelings and needs before others

I have no feelings or needs tied up in this, my children were the ones who first said they didn't like the way their grandmother treated me or them and that they didn't want that relationship so it's irrelevant to me entirely

What is relevant to me is that people may be remembered even less fondly than they were before if they take the wrong steps here

VioletSky how can it be harmful for an adult to learn that their grandparents loved them? Yes it might result in that adult having discussions with their own parents about what had caused the rift but then it is down to them to decide who they wish to believe.

Your perspective comes from a different stand point VS. You estranged your mother, your children's GM. You have put together photo's etc that will be passed onto your children and hopefully their children from your position which I hope will never change as a parent, who will also one day be a GP. Not and EP and EGP.

You seem to be unable to understand, and this is an observation not a criticism, the point of view from the perspective of an EP and EGP.

We have been estranged for more than 11 years and there in nothing we can do to change that. The relationship with our ES is broken, whatever we do or don't do wont either prevent a reconciliation or bring about one and in any event, reconciliation is not something we are interested in.

You constantly repeat that GP's are putting their needs and feelings above those of their GC. What about our AC who put their needs and wishes above their children's ability to know their GP's and in many cases the entire side of one of their parents family?

Who are we supposed to be listening too? We cannot listen to our EAC because they don't talk to us and our GC are unable too.

You are not giving an alternative, all you appear to be doing is attempting to make EGP's feel guilty if they want to leave their EGC a memory box. Making judgements by assigning selfish motivations, when the only motivation is a desire for the GC we will in all probability never meet, to know that they were loved by us.

If EAC have been honest with their children when telling them why GP's were estranged, and memory boxes contain birthday and Christmas cards that were never sent, family photo's of people they never met and information about those people, what is there to worry about?

Bridie is right, you are giving your opinion to people whose experience you have no experience of. You are being heard, but disagreed with.

Bridie22

Again I reiterate, no child involved, there is nothing in the box that would pass on any burdens to them, you are not listening.

Adult or child... Doesn't matter, my advice is the same

Either way you are arguing against what I am trying to explain, is potentially harmful behaviour so, my comments stand

So much minimizing and dismissing, it's clear why some relationships break down. The OP has posted multiple accounts of the breakdown across multiple threads, many with contradicting details if compared. First she doesn't know why the breakdown happened. Then she knows, but it's not good enough for her to respect boundaries these adults have put in place. She claims on one thread to never bother her son, then confesses elsewhere that she called him for computer issues at night. One thread she claims the son doesn't do anything for her, then another she claims he's visited her to help sort out her housing situation. If there are this many dramatic mixed messages to strangers on a website, I can only imagine how little effective communication there is in person.

As far as the daughter in law, the reality is that incidents build up until a straw breaks the camels back. Shame on any woman who would dare tell another woman that she should get over a callous, selfish reaction to her almost losing her child. Other people don't get to decide when others should and shouldn't have feelings. Respectful people don't do that. All of this speculation about what this young man and young wife tell each other, it feeds the false narrative of the OP being a victim. No one here is this young woman's psychiatrist, and certainly no one here including the OP is privy to how she an her husband interact. I say again, the negative speculation that she is a malevolent cause of her husband's rage toward his mother is nothing more than bitterness trying to fuel the fires of a rift. There are no positives to this proof-less, negative speculation. They serve only one purpose and that is to further divide. The young man will stay with his wife. Making her the target of his mother's ire will only lead to OP being estranged. The son will choose his wife, as many here can attest to.

Respect for boundaries is more healing than scapegoating his wife. Why would anyone want to drive the mother and son further away from each other? So many commenting on the unkindness of the honesty of other commenters. It's far more nasty to intentionally fuel ill feelings with pure speculation.

Again I reiterate, no child involved, there is nothing in the box that would pass on any burdens to them, you are not listening.

It’s devastating Yes it is and at the beginning it sends you into a spiral of despair disbelief bewilderment and such hurt and pain that you can barely function. It’s truly awful.

Of course you have to find another way to deal with estrangement or you’re lost! But you need a clear level head to heal and see things clearly.

If a third person is involved then they’re family values and life experiences could be miles apart from your sons. This is important to remember as you go forward. Perhaps your son is piggy in the middle that’s why he is lashing out at you simply because he can because his experience is you’ve always been there for him no matter what he did.

Try to take a huge emotional step back. I found listening more than talking helpful. I learned more that way.

My estrangement was by way of default,slightly different from yours but the lose of a loved grandchild and watching my Adult child suffer and I mean suffer was horrendous. I’ll never forget it.

Our situation has healed massively but the casualty was the innocent involved …who is now having to deal with different truths shall we say …and for that I cannot understand for the life of me why anyone weaponises their child.

Take time to reflect and focus on yourself for a while.
You’ve had really helpful sensible advice from some posters here. I hope that helps you. It’s what put me on the road to sanity again.

I didn't start this thread and I am as free as anyone to comment on it

You are making the choice to engage with me and making points I would like to address

Children are often caught up in estrangement situations, every adult involved has a responsibility to make that as easy on them as possible

You could also try journalling your feelings instead of risking passing that burden on in the future to someone who shouldn't need to carry it

My recipient is not of school age, is an adult.
So I suggest you keep your training course learnt speech for your own family.
Do you really think a positive outcome hasn't been tried for, dont try to teach your mother to suck eggs as the saying goes.

I'm sorry but, intentions do not guarantee outcomes

And children in school are learning psychology and sociology as we speak... Healthy boundaries, what constitutes unhealthy behaviour and healthy behaviour .... All over every social media platform. Estrangement in particular

If you want a positive outcome, find a way to ensure it

I have given you an alternative

Please don't patronise me, I listen and I hear, I hear you , and disagree with you.
My memory box is full of love, I would never ever hurt my granddaughter, all I'm sending is love, now back off please.

And given that changing those behaviours could potentially prevent or reconcile very important broken relationships?

Is listening a bad idea really?

No, it's not opinion, it's understanding

There are so many ways that you can come to this understanding...

Listening is one

I am not the only one saying that certain behaviours are a problem

Can you really trust those who say certain behaviours are not a problem because they themselves engage in them?

Think about it

Your opinions are just that VS, opinions and opinions are not facts, you are very judgemental person who believes her way is the only way.

Also to add, I'm not saying anyone would do this but any message in those cards that said anything like

"We are so sad we couldn't see you for your special day"

"We really wanted to give you this card/ a present but couldn't"

"I/ this person have been very unwell this year"

Really really bad

Yes because it is potentially harmful to the grandchild and there are people unable to hear that... So they are putting their needs/feelings before their grandchild

I even gave a potential alternative and stated that my family, while estranged, will still pass down photos and examples of happy memories (few but there)

But cards from a person who didn't see you on your special days... No

Yes I agree with you VS and those who do so, whose behaviour may be problematic and are "definitely the problem" are just as likely to be the son, daughter, son in law or daughter in law.

The problem is the majority of your posts on this thread have been questioning the motives of EP's/EGP's considering or having decided to leave a memory box for their GC. Not just questioning, but assigning selfish motivations and suggesting they are not considering their GC.

Of course the Mother/mother in law isn't in the wrong every time

I am just saying those who stomp all of their families boundaries, put their own needs and feelings above others and cannot for a moment see any problem with that or accept that their choices and behaviour might be problematic... Well they are definitely the problem

Apologies maddy my first paragraph was in response to you and my second in response to Madgran.

If you are dealing with a narcissistic personality, you cannot ever be in the right, because narcissists believe everything they do and say is correct. I agree Madgran and everything they do and say is about them. They don't care about anyone else including their spouse/partner and sadly for their children, them too.

I think there are lots of things that people believe could never happen to them....until it does absolutely and that includes good and bad things.

If you are dealing with a narcissistic personality, you cannot ever be in the right, because narcissists believe everything they do and say is correct. They can borrow thousands of pounds from you (because you want to help your child) and repay some and then leave for another country and never pay you another penny, whilst they still owe you thousands. They will allow you to mend things for them, do their gardening, walk their dog, sort out and keep their cars mots done. They will overspend money on themselves ‘because I’m worth it’ and then blame their partner. They will abuse their partner in different ways, including complete control. This is only part of what a narcissistic child in law can do.
And there are plenty of them about!

I think there are lots of things that people believe could never happen to them....until it does!

Not related to Estrangement specifically but there is a connection in terms of personality types...there are some people who, however much someone gives in time, effort, caring, understanding, compromise, fairness, positivity, opportunity etc ...never give anything back, they just take. Seen it many times as a leader in the work place.

And that applies too in terms of being an AC; a partner; aMil; a SiL; a DiL...family relationships and other relationships!

If you really believe that your parenting style makes you immune to estrangement you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I've often wondered over the years eddie if that's why some EP's/GP's and or those fearing estrangement are often given such a hard time, such as has been experienced by the OP.

If those of us who say we don't know, that everything was absolutely fine until a third party became involved, that we were never abusive, controlling, selfish and never wanted to be the centre of our AC's lives etc etc are to be believed, then it could happen to anyone couldn't it.

Maybe it's easier to 'believe' it must be something we've done because if not, if it's happened to us, it could happen to them.

Exactly Madgran and sometimes it better if there is an argument then everything is out in the open. Hurt feelings can be aired and dealt with in an appropriate manner. Apologies can be given and received and the relationship can move one, because that's what all healthy relationships do.

Behind the scenes stirring; storing up things that have happened in the past, often ones that the other party is unaware of because it's never been discussed to be used at a 'later date' and planting seeds of discontent, are not conducive to a relationship, let alone a healthy one and are tactics often seen when the goal is to destroy, rather than build.

Of course the vast majority of mothers understand the importance of not becoming estranged eddie. We are all in the main mothers here, and some are GP's too. Maybe some who have been estranged, are better placed to understand how important it is to avoid it if possible because they live with the pain and heartbreak. Things that have to be experienced to be truly understood.

You're spot on when you say "their ability to manage difficult ones counts for nothing if a third party has malicious intent".

"It takes 2 to argue" but it only takes one particularly clever, controlling and manipulative individual to destroy a family.