Gifts to GC when estranged

How do you know that's why some GP's leave memory boxes for their GC VS? How many GP's do you know personally to make such a sweeping statement?

Unfortunately some may already be burdened "with a history of family breakdown" because of their parents and what about GC who were old enough to remember their GP's before they were prevented from seeing them? A memory box from them wont be coming from a stranger will it.

Ladysuisei

@VioletSky
So what would you suggest then . Never acknowledge a much loved family member who at the time of the NC decision being made didn’t have a voice . Thereby not understanding why this contact was never made . Conversely, this could lead to feelings of confusion and possibly inadequacy from the child , wondering why they were not good enough to even have a relationship with their grandma . That’s not putting your feelings first , that is a balanced view .

I'm afraid often the children know in age appropriate ways why the relationship has ended. So don't view these things favourably.

Children these days grow up in all sorts of different family setups and they don't tend to look for who is missing, they look to the people who were there and loved them

It's a memory box from a stranger

Even in the slightest chance that the box is received well, it will likely cause either sadness or some sort of problem with their parents...

Do you want the legacy you leave to your grandchild to be potentially, hurt, anger, sadness or a legacy of problems caused with their parents?

Some do, and that is why they send them sadly

I would triple check your motives here

Better to wait and see if a lost grandchild contacts you and if they do, build a relationship from that point forwards rather than burden them with a history of family breakdown

Other people's experiences with their daughters in law are not LadySu's. The daughter in law is not wrong for her reaction to someone making her unborn born child's potential death about her. She is not a narcissist because she is struggling to forgive LadySu, who seems without remorse based on her own minimizing and denials of wrongdoing across various posts. No evidence whatsoever that the daughter in law is coercively controlling her husband who is expressing his own rage. She is distancing from toxic behavior, as she should. The daughter in law is not wrong here. The son is not wrong for not bringing the OP into his home with this disruptive behavior. He is 10000% correct to protect his wife from this drama.

What about my own experiences? My own experience with a mother in law who behaved similarly to LadySu lead to my husband not wanting to continue a relationship with her. He was not abused, coerced, or forced to choose by me between his mother and his wife. He chose peace and the family he created as a result of his mother continually pushing and debating our reasonable boundaries. OP's son's boundaries are reasonable. It's disrespectful to keep telling him he is wrong simply because she doesn't like the boundaries.

The Op's son hasn't cut her off yet. I do not see positive, kind, or benevolent intent in trying to convince LadySu that her daughter in law is a malevolent person with mental health issues. For sure, if she behaves as though the daughter in law is the source of her problems, the son will not want to see her. Why would anyone with a healthy sense of family relationships want to drive that idea into LadydySu's head? I see no positive intent in comparing the daughter in law to anyone's "allegedly" narcissistic daughter in law. NPD is a medical diagnosis that no one here is qualified to give this poor woman going through a rough pregnancy.

What you did or didn't miss isn't my concern Smileless. I paraphrased the OP's general attitude toward her son and daughter in law. I'm sorry if you struggle to discern what you should and shouldn't take literally, but that's not my problem. I feel your posts about her daughter in law and your "diagnoses" are wholly fanciful, bitter, and not applicable to the situation. You and I don't have to agree. I am not trying to convince you of anything at all. My comments are toward the OP because her behavior and thought process resembles much of my own mother in law, a woman whose children prefer distance. I am trying to help her see the other side of the coin in hopes of her not ending up like my mother in law. Only God knows the intentions of those trying to convince her that her daughter in law is the problem. However, you and others like you are free to comment as you please. As am I.

Nobody here is screaming bitterness SingcoTime. What a strange reaction to others point of view that differs to your own.

The so called "fanciful, and wholly negative speculations" you refer too are some peoples opinions based on their own experiences. What about your own?

"Dictating to her when she needs to forgive you"
"being so callous toward her unborn child's threatened life"

Whose suggested that it's right to say "I was wrong BUT... you are worse for not forgiving me"? I must have missed that one.

I can understand why she fears estrangement as well, as much of what she posts seems to be incredibly centered on herself, her wants, and only her feelings. There doesn't seem to be a clear respect for what her son and daughter in law need. Constantly bombarding people with why their boundaries aren't acceptable to you won't exactly draw a family closer together. Son reacts disrespectfully to disrespect of his and his wife's feelings. More toxic emotional responses from mother and son ensue. The poor daughter in law in trying to get through a difficult pregnancy and doing whatever she can to separate from a major source of stress. She's not an incubator, she's a person who is justifiably keeping distance from someone who cannot currently see beyond herself. LadySu's feelings are valid. Her actions are indefensible. It's unfortunate but this is very textbook here. The estrangement will be a self-fulfilling prophecy if Lady doesn't stop trying to negotiate the boundaries of these adults. He still sees her. Feeding LadySu speculative, fanciful, and wholly negative speculations about her daughter in law being a sinister, mentally ill manipulator screams bitterness. No need to keep muddying the water by trying to create a villain of the daughter in law. It won't help LadySu do better. It won't help her son want to be closer by feeding negativity into her about the most important woman in her son's life--HIS WIFE. The rage from LadySu's son is personal. Work on the relationship with him, and only him, right now. I have been in your daughter in law's shoes. Dictating to her when she needs to forgive you for being so callous toward her unborn child's threatened life is incredibly unkind. Nothing about lecturing someone else on forgiveness is noble--especially when you are the reason the potential forgiveness. People with self-awareness don't usually do this. Sometimes we need to take a step back and look at the chain of events from he perspective of our own actions. It's never genuine when someone says "I was wrong BUT...you are worse for not forgiving me." No apologies can be genuine with such caveats. Let things settle. Stop thinking about all the ways you were wronged and just move forward.

From reading Ladysu's posts I can understand why she fears she may become estranged.

Hello,
You say for the time being my AS hasn’t said he wants no contact in fact he said the opposite.

If this is so, maybe ask him what he wants of you for this to work...
Really listen to what he says and then you can do it.

As you are not estranged and he says he doesn't want you to be I can't see why there is such an assumption that you will be?

their GP's not GC

The same could be said about parents who deny their children a relationship with their GC VS, for reasons that have nothing to do with them being concerned about their physical/mental welfare if they do. That can be viewed as the parents putting their needs above their children, which isn't what one expects to find in a healthy family.

I agree Bridie.

A memory box is a beautiful way of storing love for someone, I have one ongoing, however if when I die the recipient chooses not to open it that is their choice.

I totally empathise with what you are going to though, what should be an exciting time with a new grandchild has turned into total heartbreak. The cruelty from your son is abuse inexcusable and aimed at driving you away. It's so very sad and you must protect yourself from that. I truly hope things change when the baby is born but if it doesn't your son will not just be rejecting you he will be depriving his child of a relationship with a loving grandmother.
Follow your heart. Wishing you well

@VioletSky
So what would you suggest then . Never acknowledge a much loved family member who at the time of the NC decision being made didn’t have a voice . Thereby not understanding why this contact was never made . Conversely, this could lead to feelings of confusion and possibly inadequacy from the child , wondering why they were not good enough to even have a relationship with their grandma . That’s not putting your feelings first , that is a balanced view .

@Petra
The only problem here is that my son completely refuses to engage with any help or support which would alleviate this dreadful situation. So it isn’t something I can do .

@VioletSky
I don’t agree with what you say about the memory box . It really won’t be a collection of hurt feelings going back a lifetime , but an expression of love and care . I believe that every child should at least have the opportunity to be able to understand where the gaps in their heritage have disappeared to . I believe it is fundamentally wrong for parents who deprive their children of any sort of relationship with their grandparents through sheer vindictive motives to expect that grandparent to be totally forgotten about . In my situation, I have contact with my son , no contact with my DIL and fully expect no contact with my grandson . As well as being a dis functional arrangement, there is no valid reason for this lack of contact other than spite . Why should my grandson exist believing for the whole of his life that I did not care ? I care very much and I will always love the child I’ve never been allowed to meet . This needs to be acknowledged in my opinion.

@Madgran
Thanks - you are right , anything could go wrong . This new approach that you’ve been teaching me will certainly throw my son . I don’t mean this in a way that I’m trying to catch him out or anything. I mean it might make him stop and think . This in itself could be a huge positive. He’s so usd to my predicable, emotional responses that he takes advantage of them . At least by using this sort of approach, I’m buying myself a bit of time to think about what I need to say and also to collect my thoughts.
So I’ll carry on with the practice, write down where my communication could have been better and just go fro there . It certainly can’t do any harm I don’t think . So at least I feel slightly more optimistic than I did last week . By having a plan in place , this gives me a chance at least .

Yes but intentions do not equal results, who would ever want to gamble with the feelings of someone they claim to love? It puts your needs above theirs and that has never been healthy in families.

I think a memory box is a lovely way of letting your GC know that you thought about them, better than them thinking that you never cared.

That's how joint counselling works petra, where both parties are present. I think it's been suggested Ladysuisei consider counselling for herself, to help her deal with the current situation.

i understand how counselling works
Then you know that each person who is hurting has a chance to say how hurt/ angry/ confused they are while an independent counsellor is listening. They will hear the dialogue ( from your son) in a completely different way to how you hear what he’s saying, and visa versa.
In the majority of disputes between people no one really listens to what the person is saying
Most people are thinking of what they are going to say. Not really listening.

I think recieving a memory box from a person you do not recall might potentially be quite upsetting

I would never take that risk with my own grandchild, I'm not special or important enough to send a lifetime of what would actually really amount to my own hurt feelings to someone who may not understand them.

I would leave them be and hope the family they have is strong and loving without intruding and causing their bond any trouble or question

Ladysuisei

@Smiles yes I know - that’s why I’m using the advice from @Madgran !! Lots of pauses so I stay calm . Lots of chances to actively listen . What could possibly go wrong…….

Anything could go wrong LadyS but if you can keep that calmness; listening; acknowledging; demonstrating hearing ...maybe there is less chance of things going wrong.
Afterwards, when he has gone, write down the specifics of his complaints as bullet points

Reflect on the specifics ...self reflection on any nuance of interpretation etc by others; what you would do differently next time etc. What you did wrong or badly ...maybe because of emotion etc ...but still not the best way ..you have already referred to this a bit so clearly you are already reflecting

By doing this you can build up more strategies to use to try to ease the angst and move forward positively.

Do PM me if you think it would be helpful as things move forward. Happy to make suggestions etc

Ladysuisei .

@Smiles yes I know - that’s why I’m using the advice from @Madgran !! Lots of pauses so I stay calm . Lots of chances to actively listen . What could possibly go wrong…….

Your son not saying he wants to go no contact is a definite positive Ladys but the verbal abuse is not something that anyone should have to put up with.

Communication is the key and as long as you have this, you do have something to work with. Yes, you need to listen and so does he.

@smiles yes a memory box is a good way forward. It’s going to be very hard I know , but reaching a level of acceptance will be the start . I find some quite unkind posts on this thread - it’s early days for me and I’m at the stage that’s probably called “ desperation “ . Anyway for the time being my AS hasn’t said he wants no contact in fact he said the opposite, even though he was sullen

@petra

You’ve made an awful lot of assumptions there - wow ! How would you surmise I talk over my son - I can’t get a word in edgewise. I’m working really hard to try to understand what has hurt him so much . I’m getting there , slowly. I’m certainly not interrupting him . In any case a 2 way conversation means he needs to listen to me as well doesn’t it ? Yesterday was gruelling. I don’t think any son , no matter what his grievances are , should tell lies and deliver these lies with a load of expletives and abuse . That is not right . He wouldn’t be allowed to do this at work so how come he thinks it’s ok to do this with his mother ?
I do understand how counselling works - only too well thank you .