Gifts to GC when estranged

@maddieone back in the day I shared the news of my pregnancy straight away with my parents, sister and BIL . On the same day I made sure my now ex husband rang his mother so she was told as well . To have excused her when my whole family knew would have been very unkind and extremely selfish in my opinion.

@maddyone
It was difficult for both of us that day in A&E . My difficulties were that I couldn’t react appropriately to news I wasn’t expecting at a time when I was in hospital for a possible kidney failure ( again) . This type of illness affects your cognitive abilities whilst you’re acutely unwell which I was . I was very unwell and then had an information overload that was very confusing. Obviously I was distraught for my DiL and my AS potentially losing a child . I can’t really add to this .

@VioletSky well today we have a breakthrough. No argument, no tantrum, just a chat about lots of neutral subjects . I’m fed up with the abuse and I tried a new tactic. That was to ask him if he wanted to discuss recent events , he said no he’s fed up with “ heavy “ conversation, so I got to work on nice light subjects. Ok , this could go 2 different ways - maybe this thawing will gradually lead to us restoring a closer relationship again . Or maybe we will need to discuss the events if things don’t go well . I’m not happy with a superficial, lacking in warmth type of relationship with my son - I do deserve more than this . I’ve always been there for him although he conveniently forgets this . For the time being, I’m going to carry on like this - it’s the best chance of repairing things I believe. Then there should be no reason to deprive me of a relationship with my GS , because this thawing will inevitably lead onto a better understanding of each other . Maybe this difficult period will turn out to be a learning lesson for us , who knows ?

Ladysuisei

@maddyone
Yes it was awful finding out about a pregnancy during a threatened miscarriage and so confusing too . Thankfully it didn’t end in a miscarriage so the baby’s due next month . I’ve always got in well with my DIL although why I wasn’t told about the pregnancy at 11 weeks is puzzling. She would be starting to show soon. It would have been obvious to anyone. Her whole family knew . But there we go , I didn’t.
I’m not engaging in arguments with my son - I am too mentally exhausted for this . I can honestly say this whole episode has made me so mentally and physically unwell, my son has a lot to answer for when he’s being deliberately cruel and abusive towards me . I’m hoping for the best but fearing the worst . I’m not “ allowed “ a relationship with the child , for reasons which have not been made clear to me .

In the gentlest of terms , you believe you’ve always gotten on with your dil. You believe you’ve always been close. But the idea that there was an eleven week pregnancy you didn’t yet know of suggests otherwise. Same for your son- you’ve always been close , you have. A great relationship now this ! Perhaps this is a shock to you - as in your mind the situation came for nowhere. But the facts of the matter suggest otherwise. Your utter obsession with you potential estrangement from a child not yet born , coupled with your inanity to contain your state of shock in the worst possible moment - suggest an overbearing person they were attempting to keep at least a little bit at bay. You’re an emotional person- may be your personality but your actions are how you manage and control that. And continuing to agonize over the loss of a relationship you’ve never had and can’t have yet - to an unborn baby that is not yours - is not doing you any favors. As so many have said - by some miracle given the strong feelings - you still have contact with you son. Accept that for what it is - a gift - and a chance that one day you may have a better relationship - WITH YOUR SON. If that happens it may be a foot inthe door to one with his children and wife as well. But at the moment you’re doing everything to ensure it doesn’t. Please seek counseling , there’s no shame in it - you’ve had a tough time. You say in one of your posts you have BPD, making it even more imperative for your own sake you seek the appropriate therapy. But whatever you do take a huge step back and try as hard a you can to respect that others can react to things differently than you would have, that they can see your actions differently than you did , and most importantly that a relationship with your son and his family isn’t a thing you can negotiate to what you want it to be. It has to be a thing all parties involved want and choose and you can’t choose for them, or simply remind them they need to choose what you want; or apply attitudes of “but life is too
Short so you’ll need to get over it “. You don’t get to decide what they “must “ get over and suggesting otherwise is too your extreme detriment. And whatever you do lay off the fantasy of moving in with them and never do it. At this point it would be sure to end in disaster.

I also mentioned that many people don’t ‘tell’ about a pregnancy until the first three months have passed. I did know about my daughter’s pregnancies earlier than that, but I’m unsure whether her MiL knew. But this wasn’t a mother/daughter relationship, it was a DiL/MiL relationship. It’s different. However good the relationship between a MiL and a DiL is, it is different from that between a mother and her daughter. It’s just how it is. It must have been distressing for Ladysu to learn about her DiL’s pregnancy as she was threatened with losing it, but it was much more difficult for the DiL to be threatened with losing her baby.

And every person on every thread is trying to help you LadySuisei from the perspective of, no one wants estrangement and to have distance from close family

You truly need to forget what peoples "labels" are and definitely forget what people have told you about others here and look at people's advice on its own... Meant sincerely, even if it is hard for you to hear it or it makes you angry and upset...

Don't lose your son if you can avoid it. Don't paint yourself as a victim you aren't. Have an adult to adult relationship with your son... He is a man now, he will choose his own family, you want to be included in that

Most people are advised not to announce a pregnancy till 12 weeks

This is when risk factors drop dramatically

The more people who know, the more people who would be upset by such a loss

Not telling you until they were sure a pregnancy is viable is actually a kind thing to do

Other than that, people's medical things are no one elses business and we shouldn't expect to know them no matter who they are to us... That's a decision that should be respected

Your emotional outbursts are a behaviour, LadySuisei. Your lashing out in anger is a behaviour. You even did it on this site when you lashed out in anger and said horrible things about poster's abuse. Based on your various posts, both you and your son struggle to get a handle on behaviour when faced with stressors. There is professional help for such struggles. It's not uncommon and it doesn't make you or your son bad people. I don't doubt for one minute that you love each other based on your posts. It's a situation I find sad. My intent isn't to make you feel worse, only to offer perspective that you cannot see right now.

I don't want you to think I am commenting from a place of malice. I am commenting from a place of concern for someone who may self-fulfill an estrangement that neither party seems to want. I am a mother. I am a woman who has previously experienced great personal trauma, as has so many others who have tried to get through to you here. I don't want another mother and child to separate over fixable issues. No one wants families to break apart, especially when the family members themselves don't want to. Your son still sees you. I am only trying to help you preserve that and leave room for healing.

Your feelings on other people's estrangements and how others raise their children aren't really the issues you need to focus on. None of us are in a position to tell each what a "genuine" reason for estrangement is because we only live our own lives. We are not in a position to tell each how we should feel, what we should suffer, or from whom we should accept behaviour that considerably lowers our emotional and mental well-being. We are not in a position to decide that we know better than parents what their own young children need. It would benefit you to move away from this type of thinking. It doesn't serve you positively. Instead, a better focus in all of this is to deal strictly with your own reality. Your son wants contact with you. Your son maintains contact with you. This is so much more important than any personal anecdote on the internet from complete strangers.

I do realize after reading many confusing posts from you across various threads, professional help would be a great avenue to help you cope with all of the trauma you've experienced. It can help you to see other perspectives more clearly. These two things can lead to more positive interactions with your son. You cannot control him, but you can control what you initiate discussions on. As a mother, I genuinely wish peace and reconcilliation for you. Truly, I do.

@maddyone
Yes it was awful finding out about a pregnancy during a threatened miscarriage and so confusing too . Thankfully it didn’t end in a miscarriage so the baby’s due next month . I’ve always got in well with my DIL although why I wasn’t told about the pregnancy at 11 weeks is puzzling. She would be starting to show soon. It would have been obvious to anyone. Her whole family knew . But there we go , I didn’t.
I’m not engaging in arguments with my son - I am too mentally exhausted for this . I can honestly say this whole episode has made me so mentally and physically unwell, my son has a lot to answer for when he’s being deliberately cruel and abusive towards me . I’m hoping for the best but fearing the worst . I’m not “ allowed “ a relationship with the child , for reasons which have not been made clear to me .

I haven’t read Ladysu’s posts on any other threads, not that I remember anyway, but I do think you’re going through a lot at the moment Ladysu. Your long term partner has died, you’ve moved home I think too. Both are considered major life events and are very stressful. Then you found out that your DiL was about to lose a baby you didn’t even know about, which must also have been stressful for you, and was terrible for the couple, especially the wife. I remember how much support I tried my best to give to my daughter when she had her two miscarriages. I felt helpless because I couldn’t do anything to ease her pain except be there for her, and as a mother you just want to heal your child’s pain. Things have gone downhill from there it seems to me, and I think it would be wise to take a step back and try your best to build a new life for yourself. Welcome your son, but do not fall out with him at all. Keep your interactions simple as far as you can. Whatever you do, do not be drawn into angry exchanges. Hopefully as time passes you will be able to establish a better relationship and understanding with your son and his wife.

Ladysuesei... first let me say that I sympathise with what you're going through. It must be terrible to lose your partner, move to a new home you aren't comfortable in, and be on the verge of losing your extended family all in a short space of time. I'm sure your anxiety is not at all helped by this series of events.

Several people on this thread have recommended you seek counselling/therapy and you have seemed quite dismissive of this. Given all you're going through and your anxiety condition I really hope you reconsider.

I think your emotional state at the moment is preventing you from seeing the facts of your situation. You've been advised many times, by both EPs and ECs on this thread, that you need to step back. Leave your son and DIL alone for a while. Find other ways to spend your time and other interests to occupy yourself with.

These things have been said gently and with kindness. They have also been said more bluntly when it's become clear you haven't been hearing that message. If you were less emotionally involved you would hopefully see that SingcoTime's posts have been helpful and come from a place of genuine caring

I have read this whole thread as well as many of your other posts and I'm going to tell you how your situation appears to me.

I think your son and DIL have been trying to ask you to back off from a long time now and you haven't been hearing them. I suspect the incident with your DIL's near miscarriage - you making it about you, shock or not - was the last straw for your DIL and she is removing herself from the relationship with you. She is in protective mum mode which I think is why you're being told you won't see your new grandson. She may change that decision. That is in large part dependent on you and how you act from this day forward.

As for your son - you are on the verge of losing him completely. He's been trying to tell you why he's frustrated for a while by the sound of things. He's now 'abusive' and using strong language because he's not getting through to you. Try to listen to the content of what he's telling you without being distracted by his shouting/swearing.

You can still turn this around. But you need to reflect on what your family is telling you and how they're feeling and stop being so caught up in how wounded you're feeling.

I hope you take this in the spirit I intend it, which is to help you, not to hurt you.

SingcoTime actually his learned behaviour is violent aggressive outbursts………..learned from his father . You learn behaviour not emotions. Emotional content is part of your personality, whereas aggression and suchlike is a behavioural trait which is learned. Unfortunately on here ( GN) there are far too many individuals with no empathy whatsoever, can be extremely unkind and rude and obviously are anonymous . When you write certain things on this forum do you ever stop to consider the effect it might have on the person it’s aimed at . In this case this is me of course . You seem to have a particular attitude problem towards me and anything I post . I thought we we are all adults and , as such , capable of an exchange of views without causing offence and/ or upset . I don’t have these personality clashes with people in the real world - yes I have what appears to be an insurmountable problem with my son at the moment. It is causing me sleepless nights and illness . I came on here in good faith hoping to get some support. Yea , there are supportive people on here but sadly the conversations remembered are the negative mean ones . You do nothing but criticise me and it is totally unnecessary and uncalled for . If you don’t like what I say why not scroll past and attack someone else instead. You might not have realised but sensitive people are often worriers and a tendency towards being highly expressed is a sensitive personality. I’m trying to word this carefully here , so as not to give you any reason to attack me further . There’s nothing worse than devoting your life to a child then young man , only to find that for reasons which you don’t understand, they turn on you . I think I speak for any estranged parent or GP in this group whether they admit it or not . Estrangement is on the rise , parents and GPs are being dispensed with at an ever increasing rate and from reading posts on here I’d say that’s because younger people these days are far too quick to put their own needs above those of others . Some posters have genuine reasons for not wanting to be in contact with various family members but the majority appear to be selfish , pure and simple . All you read about is “ boundaries “ “ validation “ “protection of my mental health “ “ narcissistic tendencies “ etc etc and there you have the perfect phrase book to justify treating people badly ( which is what this boils down to ) . Doing something such as depriving a good person if a relationship with grandchild is nothing short of vindictive selfishness ( unless abuse is involved and I don’t mean someone saying something you don’t like ) . Have you ever considered how it feels to be on the receiving end of such treatment? Have you considered the wider issues like depriving a child of his or hers natural grandparents? This sort of behaviour is teaching children that it’s perfectly ok to behave in this dysfunctional manner and so it goes on and will ultimately repeat itself in future generations. I can understand why conversations get heated when talking about this subject but the nastiness which you have been dishing out to be really is uncalled for . So just stop it .

I have addressed your son's abusive language several times. I do not condone it. Not in the least. I am not one to allow others to control my emotions to the point of such reactions, so I cannot say I agree his behavior is okay. Similarly, you just admitted that you are a highly emotional person who reacts emotionally to situations. It is not a stretch to assume his lack of control over his emotions is lifelong learned behavior. It manifests with inappropriate language, but it is clear his emotional outbursts are learned behavior. My question to you is, is this behavior out of nowhere or is it a reaction to you bringing up the issue of his and his wife's boundaries? If it's in reaction to you bringing up his boundaries, you have to own the responsibility of the provocation. This goes back to the point I and many other have tried to get through to you about: take a step back and perhaps enjoy his visits without broaching the subject.

Whether or not something is a "shock" or "confusing" to hear is a separate issue from whether or not you should have expressed your own feelings about someone else's potential loss in the moment it was happening. It's called self-control. I know highly emotional people who can still control what they say. They are adults. The ability to have self-control when emotional is what separates adults from young children.

The "gift giving" issue is really a boundary issue. Your entire conflict is about your lack of respect for boundaries. So yes, I am going to comment freely as everyone else on this thread does about the various issues related to your conflict. Rather than trying to control the communications of myself or others, try to control your own. It may help.

@violetSky no I realise that on this particular occasion the deleted posts were not directed at me !

@SingcoTime
I never said at any point that I was judging my son and wife for not telling me about the pregnancy- I was simply shocked . The natural reaction to hearing something shocking is to say something ( unless you are an automation ) . I’m an emotional person actually who does react, but everyone knows me in the real world would describe me as kind . I’m the least confrontational person you’d meet . What do you make of my son’s abuse towards me then ? Is this also my fault ? To have your AS swearing in your face for no other reason than his anger is most definitely not acceptable. Is this somehow indicative of my not wanting a harmonious family? I don’t swear in anyone’s face if I’m angry- I normally take myself off upstairs and have a good cry out of frustration. I really think you are very confused here . You direct your ire and spite towards my posts every time I write something down . It’s perfectly clear that we will not agree , so why do you bother ?
I will not concede that I am suggesting my DIL and her mother are conspiring against me . It does put me at a disadvantage though if I am the only person involved in a conversation that doesn’t know a vital fact . To have someone casually throw in “ oh …..‘s 11 weeks pregnant “ when you know nothing about it is quite confusing to hear .
Are you aware this thread is about gifts to estranged GC btw ? Your comment is completely irrelevant and unwanted

I'm saying it doesn't matter whether or not you knew about the pregnancy. It wasn't an important enough issue at the time for you to broach the subject. You don't want to see your behavior as anything but innocent, and that is a problem.

I've already told you how I would have dealt with that situation. I would have thought before I spoke. If I couldn't say anything that wasn't entirely focused on my own feelings, I'd have stayed silent. Why is that difficult for you to understand? Not everything is about how you feel. Not every moment is appropriate for you to share your feelings. There is a time and place for everything. This is a basic life principle. Nearly every interaction you post about centers around how you feel. Other people's feeling matter.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that the way one woman would handle a pregnancy and it's difficulties doesn't have to be the same as yours? Your perspective and decisions aren't the only path. Your DIL chose not to tell you and I understand why. She isn't wrong for that. Just because you made certain choices doesn't make them right for everyone.

There is nothing strange about anything I'm posting. Several other posters have tried to get through to you as well. You are the one hurting your relationship. Will it never occur to you that maybe everything isn't always everyone's else's fault in your conflict? I'm not trying to be mean at all, but I am going to be honest. You don't seem like you can think beyond your own feelings, wants, and needs. You cannot speak for your daughter in law and son by saying you don't stress them out, because the reality of the situation states otherwise. They are distancing. Clearly you are stressing them out. My advice always leans toward what can be done to make peace. Respect their boundaries. That is a better route toward peace than being dismissive. It's an easier route to peace that trying to make a villain of your daughter in law. Don't you want peace with your family where all three parties are happy in each other's presence? If constantly pushing the issue with your son creates angry conflict, why wouldn't you just avoid the conversation for now?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

@SingtoTime don’t you understand that I was not aware of any pregnancy. How do you expect compassion to be shown towards something you know NOTHING about ? Your comments are very confusing. To find out about an 11 week pregnancy just when it is possibly going to be lost is a situation that is impossible to navigate.
How exactly would you have dealt with this particular scenario then ?
Actually I am fully aware of what a high risk pregnancy feels like - I had one myself. I spent 6 months with dangerously high blood pressure and kidney issues ( whilst still working full time) . I was constantly frightened about my baby ( now AS) and whether or not we’d make it . Then during labour , further complications ensued meaning we both almost died . Now during this time , I was not cruel or nasty to anyone in my my family and I was grateful for any help I received from anyone. I would appreciate your compassion towards me actually because your comments are very nasty and the implication being that my son and his wife are acting correct towards me . I don’t “ stress people out “ as you say . In fact I’d do as much as possible to help wherever I could . Any argumentative behaviour has emanated directly from my son . His wife came up with the brilliant suggestion that I no longer hug my son to protect his “ body autonomy “ and then went on to say if I am too “ hands on “ then I won’t ever get my hands on HER baby . Do you think it’s ME who causes stress ? Maybe the stress is coming from somewhere else perhaps? I would never suggest to anyone in my family that they would not get their hands on MY baby because they attempted to give my husband a hug . I take it you have taken steps to “ remove “ someone who you see as inconvenient from your life ? You have some strange views I must say .

You could have chosen not to react much at all. I think part of the problem is that you don't seem sincerely accountable for your actions. It wasn't impossible. You chose not to filter yourself. Sometimes saying less is best. Perhaps a practice in thinking before one speaks in such moments would do you good. Filters are sometimes a necessary evil when we care about the feelings of others.

These people you are accusing of plotting to alienate you brought you to the A&E that day. Try to look at things from their perspective. DIL and her mother--these plotting women--prioritized your health by being there with you, yet you couldn't muster compassion and courtesy is such a moment for your DIL. I've been in your DIL's shoes with the MIL who took that moment to make it about herself. Surely her mother also took umbrage with her daughter's feelings being so dismissed in your reaction. Sincere contrition doesn't come with so many caveat as you seem to provide.

@Diamondlily yes my AS definitely spitting his dummy out . He’s controlling me and he’s being very cruel .
No , there isn’t a back story regarding the comments I made about not knowing that my DIL was pregnant. At 11 weeks , you’d have thought I might have been told , at least for information purposes. I found out when she was having a threatened miscarriage by accident, meaning it was totally impossible to react in exactly the right way . Emotions were running too high for lots of thought and analysing over my choice of words. I was elated , but immediately terrified. I don’t know how they expected me to react under these circumstances. To ask the question why didn’t I know was simply to assist me in a situation like that . How can you react perfectly to something you know nothing about ? This is beyond my level of communication powers . I did my best under horrible circumstances, bearing in mind we were in A&E already , getting my kidneys checked out for yet another Acute kidney Injury. I’ve been monitored for kidney disease for a while now , so all these factors just collided . I personally think they have been incredibly harsh to me , expecting the correct words about something I was unaware of for whatever reason.

I would caution against thinking a couple who is trying to safely bring a baby into this world is plotting away to estrange someone who has regular contact with 50% of the couple. Sometimes things build up. In a stressful pregnancy, it's perfectly natural to draw a line in the sand and distance from people who stress you out a bit. A pregnant woman who almost lost a baby has every right to take measures to keep their stress down. No one matters as much or more than the child she's trying to bring into this world. You may not be aware of the straw that broke the camel's back, but it doesn't mean it the straw doesn't exist. Compassion for people other than ourselves can go a long way. If we only think about how things impact us, we cannot expect others to prioritize our feelings.

@smiles yes it’s terrifying how these things creep up in you without even noticing. I’ve certainly not noticed the change I. My AS until it is too late . I wonder if I’ve been negligent or clueless but it’s more obvious things going on behind the scenes than I’ve been aware of . Someone pointed out to me today actually that I don’t know what’s going on I his house , his life etc . I’m not aware of potential issues and problems that he’s not told me about . Obviously he’s choosing not to tell me these things but there could be good reasons for this . He did tell me they had warned me that I might not be part of my GS’s life - I don’t remember it being that way . They didn’t give me a reason for example. This whole thing has blown up since Xmas day when we actually had a lovely time together. The 3 of us , which is why I’m so confused. Ever since , things have been so strained , he’s been extra abusive towards me and his wife has refused to see me . Yet on Xmas day , she gave me dinner ! What on earth is happening ? Either I’m just oblivious or they planned this with precision, something which you tell me happened to you . It feels absolutely awful.

It was the gradual change in his behaviour, and how he changed as a person that was disturbing Ladysu. You think you know your own child, because you've known them their entire life. How can you have got it so wrong?

I don't blame him for doing what he believed to be best for his family, especially the children. If he'd told us that for the sake of his family he could no longer have anything to do with us, and that we'd be kept away from our GC, God knows that would have been bad enough.

What really almost destroyed us were the lies he told to his brother, and to friends some we'd known since they were at primary school together.

The worse thing of all was trying to come between us and his brother, to try and destroy our relationship with our only other child.

About 3 years into our estrangement when we were visiting our son in Aus., during a conversation I told him that there'd been a time when we thought we'd lose him too. He just looked at me and said "that would never happen mum, because I'm not like
.....". It was only at that moment that I realised he could see it too.

Ladysuisei

@smiles that’s terrifying to suddenly find your AC being controlled. I don’t know if mine is or whether it suits him to be controlled by someone different. He’s told me I’ve always been controlling- this suited him at the time because I was caring and attending to his every whim . I just don’t get what’s going on in my life , but like you it seems to be spiralling out of control without me being able to much about it . I’m trying to take a step back but when you’re used to a certain way of life this is so difficult xxx

Not being harsh, but from what you’ve said, the one spitting his dummy out being abusive, and trying to dictate about what you should be doing with your late partners ashes is your son.

The comment you made, unless there’s a backstory, seems innocent enough, and not worth all the drama that’s been generated.🤔

Again, I would concentrate on getting over the loss of your partner and your house move.

Life often pans out if you stand back for a while.🙂

@maddieone
I’d already decided that once the baby here is offer NO advice. Who is to say my way would be the best way ? Not me and certainly not my AS and DIL . They need to learn their own way - but I’d love to have an involvement in my GS’s life , especially as this whole business has been so unnecessary. Under normal circumstances a comment like I made would have just gone unnoticed, not blown up out of all proportion like it has done xxx