Is “ No Contact “ abuse ?

That's OK VS you don't need to tell me you're choosing not to respond, just don't.

Yes of course

But I am choosing not to respond to you Smileless and letting you know I am here to help the OP in the hope she can turn her situation around

Well respectfully when you post, anyone can respond to what you say whether you're specifically engaging with them or not.

Respectfully, I am talking to OP Smileless and not engaging you in conversation here

Whose contacting their child on a daily basis and asking for help? Whose expecting to know every detail of their son's and d's.i.l personal lives and medical experiences?

Plenty of parents of AC share their emotional issues, that's not expecting them to carry them or using them as emotional leverage or to make their AC feel guilty. The same can't be said for telling a mother/m.i.l. that she'll never be able to see her GC.

It may be difficult for the OP to see that some of what's been posted here is intended to help her situation because of the way some of it has been delivered.

Being permanently estranged doesn't necessarily equate to being unhealed VS. Many EP's heal and in time realise that there is a life after estrangement to be enjoyed by with those they love who love them in return.

Madgran77

*Singco. If it didn't apply to then you shouldn't have taken it personal. If it did, oh well. Either way I stand fully behind my comment. You are welcome to agree or disagree. My opinion remains the same.*

You appear to have missed the point. You gave a generalised comment about only taking advice from .... but if you looked at my advice and the OPs comments regarding listening to that advice then the generalisation comes over as inaccurate as I have not said anything that implies what you said re DIL or relationship with son! At the very least you should say that you are making an assumption about the posters the OP is listening to.

The point is you can "stand by your opinion" but if it's based on a criticism of the OP only taking advice from an incorrect assumption on your part then it is inaccurate criticism of the OP.

I'm not taking this personally and made that clear in my comment. I AM concerned that for criticism to be helpful it needs to be accurate!

My comment and advice wasn't for you. Whether YOU feel it is helpful isn't something I'm concerned with. I can't really say it any other way Madgran.

VioletSky,
What an excellent post, as usual!

It's true I am afraid

No mother should be contacting their child and asking for help on a daily basis

No mother should be expecting to know every detail of their son and DILs personal or medical experiences... and should never be hurt they didn't know sooner

No mother should be expecting their child to carry their emotional burdens. We have friends to talk too about our woes and it should never be used as leverage or to make others feel guilty

Too many mistakes are being made here and this relationship is close to the edge of being lost entirely

Please take a big step back. You may not like what others are saying on this thread but all the information you need to keep your relationship with your son and mend bridges with your DIL is here

Please don't join the ranks of permanently estranged and unhealed

Singco. If it didn't apply to then you shouldn't have taken it personal. If it did, oh well. Either way I stand fully behind my comment. You are welcome to agree or disagree. My opinion remains the same.

You appear to have missed the point. You gave a generalised comment about only taking advice from .... but if you looked at my advice and the OPs comments regarding listening to that advice then the generalisation comes over as inaccurate as I have not said anything that implies what you said re DIL or relationship with son! At the very least you should say that you are making an assumption about the posters the OP is listening to.

The point is you can "stand by your opinion" but if it's based on a criticism of the OP only taking advice from an incorrect assumption on your part then it is inaccurate criticism of the OP.

I'm not taking this personally and made that clear in my comment. I AM concerned that for criticism to be helpful it needs to be accurate!

Madgran77

*Singco. Many here are giving you honest, good advice. Yet you seem to be listening only to the voices that inappropriately diagnose psych issues with their DILs and unsurprisingly do not have healthy relationships themselves with their sons.*

I am aware that LadyS has said she is listening to my suggestions re communicating more effectively with her son, really listening and demonstrating that he has been heard, self reflecting on her own behaviours and other possible perspectives on that etc!

Therefore she is NOT only listening to people who "diagnose psych issues with their DILs" and "unsurprisingly do not have healthy relationships themselves with their sons."!! I cannot imagine how you would surmise that about me (inaccurately) from anything I have ever said on GN!

I'm not saying the above to "make it about me" or to "take offence". I just think that if one is going to criticise someone for "only listening to ..." or whatever then accuracy is crucial, otherwise the criticism will not be heard and is decidedly unhelpful if one wants to help!

If it didn't apply to then you shouldn't have taken it personal. If it did, oh well. Either way I stand fully behind my comment. You are welcome to agree or disagree. My opinion remains the same.

It's unfortunate Madgran especially for the OP that some only see what they want to see. Assuming that only their 'advice' is worth listening too, and that because anyone who has themselves been estranged or gone no contact with, they are the ones who are blinkered, who unfairly believe their AC's spouse or partner had a part in it, when sometimes that is the case.

Some people are responsible for becoming estranged, for having no contact but not everyone is.

I fail to understand how some of the unpleasant and judgemental responses the OP has received, can be regarded as giving advice.

It’s not abuse though obviously painful & often on both sides.

We’re not quite no contact but very low contact with a family member. We’ve just had enough of someone who, amongst other things - there a long list has:-
Never shown any interest in our lives (even when I was seriously ill & in hospital for several weeks) but talks incessantly about hers & is otherwise always sullen & criticising when we meet her, even before we went low contact;
Takes great pleasure in others misfortunes;
Is very vocal & open about her views about race which we find offensive particularly as she knows we don’t share those views. She seems to always raise them as she wants a argument & gets very sarcastic when we don’t engage;
Has told many lies about us to get her own way & to extract money from parents;
Continually lobbied against us to try & get a larger portion of a will made to her;
Took valuable items during clearing the parental house, then said they’d been given to her - they hadn’t, have evidence of this but just let it go as it wasn’t worth the hassle & cost of involving solicitors;
Never pays her way;
No compassion, has never acknowledged my parents death even though she knew them quite well

We get absolutely nothing from this relationship, in fact always feel really down after we’ve seen her, she’s a dementor!

So why we would be in contact? Have tried to have a conversation with her about this but just get tears & tantrums

Singco. Many here are giving you honest, good advice. Yet you seem to be listening only to the voices that inappropriately diagnose psych issues with their DILs and unsurprisingly do not have healthy relationships themselves with their sons.

I am aware that LadyS has said she is listening to my suggestions re communicating more effectively with her son, really listening and demonstrating that he has been heard, self reflecting on her own behaviours and other possible perspectives on that etc!

Therefore she is NOT only listening to people who "diagnose psych issues with their DILs" and "unsurprisingly do not have healthy relationships themselves with their sons."!! I cannot imagine how you would surmise that about me (inaccurately) from anything I have ever said on GN!

I'm not saying the above to "make it about me" or to "take offence". I just think that if one is going to criticise someone for "only listening to ..." or whatever then accuracy is crucial, otherwise the criticism will not be heard and is decidedly unhelpful if one wants to help!

I also want to share my experience with my currently estranged mother in law. The details may be relatable for many on both sides of the issue.

--She is a mother of sons who has struggled with any woman her sons have ever been involved with (this is usually an early red flag). I married her "golden child", which means I never had a chance in her eyes unless I let her steamroll our lives. She ignores the fact that her son's have either physically distanced from her by hundreds of miles or they have distanced emotionally. Instead, I caused her rift because I have a "dysfunctional" family background and projected this onto my husband. She would even use her so-called generosity as a means to control. Yet, my "dysfunctional" family remains close to us and our beautiful children. These same children my mother in law doesn't even know because she chose to make me her enemy rather than her daughter. She forced her own son to choose between a happy nuclear family or keeping his mum as the matriarchal queen she fashioned herself.

--She blames me for influencing her son distancing himself.
This is partly true. They had an enmeshed relationship that she enjoyed more than he did. Healthy boundaries apparently didn't exist before we met and eventually married. It was hard for her to accept that the husband/wife bond was more important to him than her mother/son bond, and that they didn't actually share everything like she'd hoped. My MIL struggled with the concept that not every aspect of his life was open to her. Us making decisions as man/wife as opposed to him confiding in her or asking for her advice made me her villain. I was manipulating him. I was coercively controlling her baby boy. We explained to her that healthy marriages do not involve one's parents being privy to everything. My miscarriage was her wound because she didn't get to know about the pregnancy at the same time as my mum, as if I didn't have the right to share what was going on with my body with my second most trusted person. When we lost our little boy, she never apologized for making it all about her. I was told that it happens everyday, that she had a right to know, that we were evil for keeping secrets from her. To this day she is as unapologetic as the posts I read from you.

I can go on and on about how she tried to turn everyone against us. In the end, the sad thing is that she is a mother with grandchildren and family that would rather keep away from her than have her emotionally manipulating them. My husband is the only one fully no-contact, but the other does not so much a travel back for Christmas. They speak occasionally, but have never been close. A decade on, and my MIL is probably still dripping poison about us in the ears of anyone who will listen. The truth is that after all this time, we are happily married and she is the one missing out. We would have wanted nothing more than our children to have another set of loving grans. They are not deprived of anything at all, as my side has 2 grans, 3 amazing step grans, aunties, uncles, and cousins. It is just unfortunate that my husband couldn't have a mother who put what's best for him above her own wants.

Please do end up like my mother in law. There is still time for your family to heal. Accept where your son and his wife are right now. Think about more than just your wants here. There is hope if you want there to be. But please stop trying to make your DIL a villain. You cannot know the damage this will eventually do.

Well said singcotime.

Lots of people on here trying to explain it to you OP. As long as he's still in contact, it's not too late to fix the relationship. But blaming his wife and the mother of his child isn't going to mend the relationship. He is likely giving you a chance to respect the boundaries set before making a no contact decision.

If you want the relationship, maybe consider advice from people who estranged their parents. I would have a relationship with my mom but she couldn't respect my new priorities and violated my boundaries repeatedly.

You can't stop him from making the decision to go NC or keep his child out of your life, but if you accept that he is saying this dynamic doesn't work and commit to trying the new dynamic I do think he will meet you halfway eventually. Patience is key, so he can see you've really changed your approach.

Also, if you think they can't tell what you think about your DIL, you are mistaken. They can. If that's how you want to continue, that's fine. Don't expect the relationship to continue though, because he has clearly made his choice.

This is really sad. I want to start off by saying I've read many of your posts in various threads. So much of this can be resolved by accepting some personal responsibility. The no-contact here is not abuse in any way shape or form. Walking away or distancing from relationships that endanger your emotional and mental well-being is simply the right thing to do. Replace the words "mother/father" in no-contact situations with "ex-husband/ex-wife" and no one screams abuse. It's not abuse to leave relationships that do your more harm than good. VioletSky made a great point about abusive family members using the concept of 'no-contact as abuse' to keep their victims in toxic relationships.

There is a pattern here that I have also noticed in real life with women who find themselves in these situations. It's usually women who have no daughters who have an expectancy of being the number one focus of their sons' lives forever. You are struggling right now that your son is prioritizing his wife and unborn child. He agrees to see you and help you, yet it isn't enough. You literally have said he does "nothing" for you. I am sorry you lost your partner. I really am. My first husband died when our son was very young. I had to pull myself up so that not only could I take care of my child, but that I did not revert to helplessness myself. You are 2 decades younger than my parents. You want your son to essentially parent you by sorting your life out. That's not on. I understand better than most how hard it is to live in a home where you lived with your deceased spouse. However, to vilify your son for rightfully keeping his own home a safe place for his wife is wrong. You said it somewhere yourself that he recognizes your pattern of emotional outbursts. Why would you be a safe person to live in their home as they are going through a rough pregnancy when you couldn't muster the empathy to keep your feeling to yourself when they thought they were losing their baby? You are being an emotional steamroller at their most vulnerable time. You speak only of what you want them to do to please you. Your son needs to focus on his wife now. I even read your comment somewhere about your expectations for how he should be grieving with you. You don't even respect the fact that his idea of mourning your partner doesn't have to equal yours. My current MIL is not an active part of our lives after much of the same behavior. I had an actual miscarriage that she was dismissive of. Like you, she was more upset about the fact that I did not share with her the personal details of my own body, as if she were entitled. This old-school mentality of not respecting a woman's body autonomy hardly endears anyone to a woman going through reproductive issues. She made our loss about her and I never forgot it. She was as unsympathetic as you are. My husband remains hurt by this as well. You've also posted previously that you have "absolutely no idea" why they are distanced from you, then in other areas you admit the catalyst for the distance. Seems you are more interested in your own feelings. I agree with your son based on various comments you've made here.

I in no way condone the language your son uses toward you. It's indefensible. However, it appears he did not have a good role model in healthy emotional support or coping, as evidence by so many of your posts. You have the choice to avoid these outbursts by respecting his decision to see you alone. For the sake of peace and seeing your son, why wouldn't you avoid provoking him? He is not raging at you because he is being manipulated to do so. That is wishful thinking on your part. He is raging at you because he is expressing (inappropriately so) emotions that are coming from within himself. You can't respect his feelings when you don't even acknowledge them and their validity. Making up an origin for them that is more palatable for yourself isn't going to help this situation. Your scapegoat DIL isn't making him choose between you two if he clearly still sees you. She is making the very smart decision to stay away from you herself.

Many here are giving you honest, good advice. Yet you seem to be listening only to the voices that inappropriately diagnose psych issues with their DILs and unsurprisingly do not have healthy relationships themselves with their sons. There is nothing you've posted outside of your own bad behavior that suggest your son is in a "coercive relationship". Do not invalidate his feelings and let yourself off the hook here by blaming your DIL. The internet is a dangerous place for this. Everyone with an opinion thinks they are qualified to use the DSM V to excuse away their poor relationships and their own bad behavior that provokes bad responses. People aren't mentally ill for not tolerating selfish family members. There is absolutely nothing in any post that suggest mental illness...in your daughter in law. Your son's angry outburst are the product of his feelings about you not respecting what he wants from your relationship--simply because it's not what you want. That's not influence, that's personal. He is an adult. Stop trying to negotiate his boundaries. He has a right to have them in place. Debating how he should be feeling is always wrong.

I'm not surprised you're confused Ladysu. Your d.i.l. hugs you on Christmas day, tells you she loves you and for you to take care, then nothing since!!! Sounds very much like our ES's wife who often told us how much she loved us and even that she wished her mum had been like me. It all changed when she became pregnant.

I was the same with our ES before being estranged. I'd ask him for help and/or advice especially when it came to buying something techy for his dad because I'm pretty hopeless.

I remember how desperate and alone I felt when in hospital with Mr. S. who was having some potentially serious health problems. DS is in Australia and what I wouldn't have given in that moment, just to have our ES there with me. Not to do anything, just be there the way he used to be. Even though we'd been estranged for 7 years that overriding feeling of fear and loneliness knocked me for 6.

Your son's m.i.l. certainly comes across as rather controlling and this simply adds an additional difficulty to an already fraught situation. Telling you how too and how often to speak to your son you do well too, as my gran would say 'keep your powder dry'.

@mamasperspective
lol - you advice and advocate therapy as an intervention then you recommend watching reels on Instagram!!! That’s hilarious. How many serious intelligent adults would take advice from Instagram influencers in order to resolve life’s issues . !!!! Haha ( sorry - that’s ridiculous) I’ve heard it all now . Was this a serious suggestion?
I’m listening to people on here , yes , often mother’s of sons , who have experience, real [grin]life experience thank you

@mamasoerspective
Wow - you’re an angry person aren’t you . I requested an apology not for me , but on behalf of someone who is no longer here to defend himself.
I’m not bothered about what you say , you really don’t have a clue . You might have lost a close relative but anyone who understands, will tell you , loss of your life partner, the person who made you whole is like no other experience in life . One day you might experience this yourself, so just remember karma can suddenly knock at your door at any time .
Your writing style is pretty similar to @Grams5 ( or whatever) . You don’t happen to be related do you because she has disappeared? You also sound perpetually angry which must feel great .
My son has free choice and chooses to spend time with me . I had and would love to have a loving relationship with my DIL once more . You make the child sound like some sort of prize which I am undeserving of . Yes I know parents hold the cards and boy don’t they know it . Bye . I’m not interested in conversation with you any further thanks .

@Smiles I’m only asking him to help me because he made it clear he wants the relationship. If this changes well I’ll back off . I’m very upset again today , feel in shock and quite sick and horrible.

@Smiles well firstly it was her mother who told me she didn’t want to see me . I haven’t had a conversation with my DIL since Xmas day when she hugged me said love you and take care . I’m highly confused because it’s been silence ever since and nothing happened. So her mother is heavily involved here . I understand she’s looking out for her daughter whilst pregnant but driving a wedge between me and my son is making him unhappy as well as me . He denies wanting NC because I asked him outright . He says they have talked about it but as I am his biological mother he feels he’d like to see me . Why this doesn’t extend to my grandson is beyond me , but I will leave it for the time being . I tried to get hold of him to assist me with some computer things , well overnight because I know he wouldn’t pick up till this morning . He could decide whether to respond . He didn’t actually probably because he may have been doing something I don’t know.
I try not to demand a reply although sometimes I need to ask for his expertise. I’m useless on technology. I agree it isn’t fair to put my son between me and his wife . I’m not happy with her mother for interfering like this , she’s overstepping the mark but I’ve not told her this . I’m trying to stay neutral but she tends to tell me how to speak to my son and how often I should contact him . It’s very stressful, difficult and not doing me a lot of good health- wise .

An excellent post FM11. Accepting the reality that some estrangements are due to the coercive control by a wife/husband/partner, helps to prevent the automatic assumption that the parent(s) either facing no contact/estrangement, or who find themselves in this situation are always to blame.

You're right Allsorts nor is it good for anyone to be in an abusive or controlling relationship with their partner or spouse, especially when that can result in them severing contact with their family, and being completely isolated from them.

Sometimes no contact is the only way. It’s not good for anyone being in an abusive or controlling relationship even with your your mother or your child.

A narcissist daughter or son in law thrives on control,isolating their partner from family is a must for them because that way their partner/ victim has no support no means of reaching out or escaping from the psychological prison they are in. In most cases the partner becomes the enabler out of misplaced loyalty fear and the deluded belief that if they do everything the narcissist wants that they are saving and protecting the relationship. The sad fact is that they are only adding fuel to the narcissist's fire and signing up to a life of abuse and isolation.

Also (side note) ... it sounds as though your DIL and AS went through a difficult time with a potential miscarriage yet your reaction sounded like you made it all about you and the fact you hadn't been told. I know you dispute this in further posts but even the way you explained it made it seem the case so I'm not surprised they think this unforgivable after such a traumatic time. Your DIL's pregnancy (and medical information) is none of your business. Nobody is taking away from the fact you have had a traumatic time also with losing your partner but to try to shift the focus to yourself by repeatedly pointing this out to them (and on this thread) indicates you want to be seen as the victim rather than just showing empathy for their situation. Newsflash - not everything is about you. Your DIL and their child is your son's number 1 priority. If you are struggling with grief, seek therapy and don't have an entitlement over how your son should be providing your emotional support. Not his job. And before you jump on me for that, I have suffered terrible grief myself over the loss of an extremely close family member, not once have I expressed that anyone should put my grief or feelings first - they are my responsibility.

You blame DIL's mother, DIL and now your son. They are not some sort of cult against you, they are 3 grown adults with their own mind all telling you that you are the issue - if many people tell you the same thing, maybe you need to take their comments on board and stop with the incessant denial. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck .....

Also, previous poster made some very good and valid points - to demand an apology 'within 24 hours' actually made me laugh out loud. Lady - who on earth do you think you are???!!! Your entitlement is NEXT LEVEL and off the charts!

Reading your posts, I'm glad your DIL has chosen to protect her peace and protect her child from anyone who would think an attitude such as yours is 'normal' ... your son is clearly aware of your behaviour yet chooses to remain in contact with you. Maybe he needs some therapy too to realise that sometimes no contact is the best (and only) option.

No, I don't believe 'no contact' is abuse. I think it's the final (and difficult) decision to protect one's own family and their mental health from people that are overbearing, often covert narcissists who attempt to use the victim card to their advantage and who cannot respect boundaries.

These people are incapable of self reflection so NC is the only option as nobody needs that level of toxicity in their life - better to create distance and protect a family's peace and happiness. It astounds me how some MILs can be so oblivious to their own behaviour.

Just because someone is a blood relative, it does not give any level of entitlement nor excuse bad or overbearing behaviour.

In many cases, I have noticed the 'victims' of no contact seem to be mothers of boys who immediately jump to blaming the DIL then (after showing the DIL no respect and not accepting her as the now number 1 woman in her sons life) jealousy creeps it's head,

DIL becomes the villain in the story and the 'innocent' MIL wonders why her son and his family choose to go no contact. It's nothing that a look in the mirror can't answer.

Men are raised and grow up to raise their own nuclear/immediate family - they choose a partner and often choose to have children. This means he will pull away from his parents and become independent and the life of him and his nuclear family no longer become the business of his parents - if he chooses to share, fair enough, but otherwise, his mother is no longer his number 1 and needs to let him go. Many mothers can't do this and still feel this entitlement that he should make her a higher priority in his life.

You also cannot treat a DIL badly then expect a close relationship (or often any relationship) with a baby SHE has grown inside her and given birth to, that's ludicrous. If you want a relationship with your grandchild, it comes hand in hand with showing a DIL love and respect. There's also no surprise that a son will go NC if his partner and number 1 love in his life is disrespected and treated poorly.

May I suggest you try watching some Instagram reels:

@Morethangrand

This is a grandmother giving other grandmothers advice.

@organicallymaddie

Highlights boundaries that should be respected for new mothers

@millennialmatleave

Does some brilliant reels re mothers in law

May I add, I'm very sorry for your loss but the fact your partner has passed away is irrelevant in this situation and shouldn't be used as a guilt trip against your son - this is emotional manipulation.