The next thread for friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life

"Life is full of stress" yes it is DL and part of being an adult is being able to successfully negotiate relationships personal and professional.

I completely agree Ladysu that "by agreeing with everything an AC says and giving the opinions complete validation too is a recipe for disaster. By doing this they will gradually hold even more power than they do already".

It also gives a false impression of living of the real world they have to live in. Not everyone's going to agree with everything they think and say, just because they think and say it.

Everyone should have healthy boundaries, obviously, I'd have thought.

Being a doormat is no good for anyone's mental health.

GG65 I haven’t missed anything, Madgran. I’ve read her posts on this thread, and on others. I know the situation well enough to comment.

GG65 Remaining calm during conversations and respecting someone’s boundaries are two entirely different things

Yes they are! As you have read all the posts, I am surprised that you appear not to be aware that the "calm" reference has become "shorthand", understood by Lady, myself and other posters for a particular strategy that I recommended to lady regarding:
+ respecting her son's boundaries by keeping calm, rather than getting angry and defensive
+not referring to the subjects he doesn't want to discuss and respecting his boundaries
+really listening to him and showing him that she has listened
+letting him lead on any discussions
+keeping to more general day to day subjects unless he wishes to talk about the issues arising.

GG65 Having read all her posts about the extent she has discussed her possibly not seeing her grandchild (who hasn’t even been born, by the way) with her family, especially her dad, and how they have all agreed that they will not have a relationship with her son and grandchild if she doesn’t, I’m not surprised that her dad commented on it at all, so I’m not sure why *Ladysue is surprised.*

Ladysue has every right to discuss this situation with her father. (yes I am aware the granchild hasn't been born; but understandably, as she has been told before the child is born that she will not have a relationship, it is exercising her mind and her emotions!)
What I referred to was that she was surprised her dad came in at all. The previous week he had not participated and things went better. She presumably did not realise it would be different this week. She and her dad clearly need to clarify what her strategy is and she needs to explain to him why what he did was not helpful, but it is quite understandable that she did not expect what happened. She has already said that she understands it wasn't helpful and I think she said she will talk to her dad about that.

GG65 Where? She has repeatedly said that she hasn’t done anything wrong, despite detailing instances where she has, in fact, done something wrong. She has said that she is guilty of “smothering him (her son) with love” which, to do to an adult, is really controlling and overbearing.

She has been quite clear about the incident at the hospital being the start of the problems. She has over time considered that, explained why she reacted as she did, accepted that it was not the best reaction whilst also wondering why it could not be discussed and sorted out. She has in a number of posts on a range of threads said things she thinks she has done wrong but is not allowed to discuss or explain or apologise for anything, having been told that an apology won't solve things!

GG65 I don’t think your final paragraph is helpful, at all, because:

GG65 When stressed, people with borderline personality disorder experience a distortion of their perceptions or beliefs. In close relationships, they tend to misinterpret or amplify what other people feel about them. They believe that others are harming (abusing) them without basis in reality. They believe that others have hostile intent toward them

I am well aware of the above. However although there may well be elements of all that in this situation, there is reality in the verbal abuse that she has been listening to. Her son is aware of her BPD! And having BPD does not preclude setting boundaries when faced with that level of verbal abuse

GG65 What would be helpful would be encouraging Ladysuisei to see her GP, or her mental health team (if she has one). BPD is a serious mental health condition. I have experience in this area. I could see traits of BPD in Ladysuisei‘s posts before she even mentioned it. It’s not unusual for older women to not even know they have the condition because they slip through the net. So for Ladysuisei to have the diagnosis at her age means that her condition has gotten bad in the past to the extent she has needed medical intervention - but it is only an advantage that she has this diagnosis because she has access to the appropriate support. She needs to utilise that support as she is running head first into total estrangement with her son because her disorder will not allow her to stop the behaviours he has an issue with, nor will it even allow her to see those behaviours. Your advice that she “set her own boundaries” with her son is absurd in her situation. I have advised Ladysuisei on other threads to please reach out to her GP. It is the only way here and I can imagine her son would be completely supportive of her if she went down this path. He has dealt with this his entire life and, despite everything, is still clinging onto maintaining a relationship with her. And she can’t see that

A lot of us have advised the same GG65. It is up to LadySue whether she takes that advice. But while she is working through this mess she has at least settled on a strategy that has some possibility of sustaining a relationship to a point where she feels perhaps more able to utilise wider support and also where maybe she and her family are able to move forward more positively. Its better than what she was describing previously and actually last week created a situation that is better for both her and for her son where there was no shouting and no verbal abuse and some sort of normality in their interactions.

I don't agree that my advice re "setting her own boundaries" with regard to the verbal abuse is in the least absurd. I am at a loss as to why someone should have to put up with that level of verbal abuse because they have BPD!

Ladysuisei

@March 3 labours ! That’s brave - I decided to stick with one after nearly dying in mind 😳
@DismondLily well yes as adults we are ultimately accountable for our actions. I did see an article in the Mail about the mental health of the under 30’s these days . In fact it’s topical because it was on BBC news as well . Funny thing is that whether or not you buy into work done by psychologists , he said that estrangement in general, because it’s on the rise ( AC estrangement of EP’s I mean ) in part because of the poor mental health of young people. He has theorised that the lack of resilience, combined with inability to deal with things such as criticism means any difficult situation with parents mean it’s easier to walk away and estrange , citing reasons like “ improving their mental health “ . So there’s a direct link between how young people are coddled and over indulged leading to their inability to deal with difficult relationships and / or disagreements with parents . They find it too challenging. There’s no way that I would have ever walked away from difficult situations with my parents when I was under 30 . I had the mental resilience to be able to deal with life’s challenges without running away from them , much like most people of my age . I’ve not known anyone who has estranged, until I started to experience this with my own son .
Actually I read about this particular psychologist because someone on another thread specifically mentioned his book Rules of Estrangement and I decided to take a look into him . I have to say , his research is interesting but his method of dealing with this is certainly not for me . I believe that by agreeing with everything an AC says and giving the opinions complete validation too is a recipe for disaster . By doing this they will gradually hold even more power than they do already .
So yes , younger people have an inability to deal with Normal stress , leading them to run away from all difficulties.

Yes, some, not all, young people have been over shielded to the point that any stress leads to them running away.

It does them no favours in the end.

Life is full of stress.😗

@March 3 labours ! That’s brave - I decided to stick with one after nearly dying in mind 😳
@DismondLily well yes as adults we are ultimately accountable for our actions. I did see an article in the Mail about the mental health of the under 30’s these days . In fact it’s topical because it was on BBC news as well . Funny thing is that whether or not you buy into work done by psychologists , he said that estrangement in general, because it’s on the rise ( AC estrangement of EP’s I mean ) in part because of the poor mental health of young people. He has theorised that the lack of resilience, combined with inability to deal with things such as criticism means any difficult situation with parents mean it’s easier to walk away and estrange , citing reasons like “ improving their mental health “ . So there’s a direct link between how young people are coddled and over indulged leading to their inability to deal with difficult relationships and / or disagreements with parents . They find it too challenging. There’s no way that I would have ever walked away from difficult situations with my parents when I was under 30 . I had the mental resilience to be able to deal with life’s challenges without running away from them , much like most people of my age . I’ve not known anyone who has estranged, until I started to experience this with my own son .
Actually I read about this particular psychologist because someone on another thread specifically mentioned his book Rules of Estrangement and I decided to take a look into him . I have to say , his research is interesting but his method of dealing with this is certainly not for me . I believe that by agreeing with everything an AC says and giving the opinions complete validation too is a recipe for disaster . By doing this they will gradually hold even more power than they do already .
So yes , younger people have an inability to deal with Normal stress , leading them to run away from all difficulties.

Madgran77

*GG65 Rather than spiralling into thoughts about your DIL being the “gatekeeper” and you saying you have no idea why your son is acting the way he is, maybe first try respecting his wishes i.e. not bringing up topics of conversation that he has said he doesn’t wish to discuss because it only leads to arguments (and not getting others to bring up those topics on your behalf)*

Lady has managed to do exactly that GG65; perhaps you missed that earlier in the thread where that is exactly what she achieved last week, allowing her son to lead the conversation, keeping calm and well done to her for doing that as it was clearly not easy for her.

She has already explained before you posted that she was surprised that her dad came in and commented and she hadn't expected that; she was not "getting other people to bring up those topics for her"; and she has already acknowledged that her dad's input unfortunately exacerbated things!

Lady has clearly expressed some recognition of her own part in the relationship previously; she is categorically not pushing all of her responsibility onto her son. She is trying to work out what her part exactly is in the relationship as things stand now!

Her son clearly is trying to maintain a relationship although he does bear responsibility for his abusive behaviour/statements to his mother that Lady gave some details of earlier in the thread! Those are well beyond boundaries and if Lady wished to she would be well within her rights to set that boundary, tolerate such abuse no more and have her own boundary respected. Last week she totally respected his boundary enabling him to behave considerably more appropriately; as a result Lady did not have to endure yet more extremely vitriolic abuse as per what she mentioned on here! Which was good for both of them!

I haven’t missed anything, Madgran. I’ve read her posts on this thread, and on others. I know the situation well enough to comment.

Remaining calm during conversations and respecting someone’s boundaries are two entirely different things.

She has already explained before you posted that she was surprised that her dad came in and commented and she hadn't expected that; she was not "getting other people to bring up those topics for her"; and she has already acknowledged that her dad's input unfortunately exacerbated things!

Having read all her posts about the extent she has discussed her possibly not seeing her grandchild (who hasn’t even been born, by the way) with her family, especially her dad, and how they have all agreed that they will not have a relationship with her son and grandchild if she doesn’t, I’m not surprised that her dad commented on it at all, so I’m not sure why Ladysuisei is surprised.

Lady has clearly expressed some recognition of her own part in the relationship previously; she is categorically not pushing all of her responsibility onto her son. She is trying to work out what her part exactly is in the relationship as things stand now!

Where? She has repeatedly said that she hasn’t done anything wrong, despite detailing instances where she has, in fact, done something wrong. She has said that she is guilty of “smothering him (her son) with love” which, to do to an adult, is really controlling and overbearing.

I don’t think your final paragraph is helpful, at all, because:

When stressed, people with borderline personality disorder experience a distortion of their perceptions or beliefs. In close relationships, they tend to misinterpret or amplify what other people feel about them. They believe that others are harming (abusing) them without basis in reality. They believe that others have hostile intent toward them

What would be helpful would be encouraging Ladysuisei to see her GP, or her mental health team (if she has one). BPD is a serious mental health condition. I have experience in this area. I could see traits of BPD in Ladysuisei‘s posts before she even mentioned it. It’s not unusual for older women to not even know they have the condition because they slip through the net. So for Ladysuisei to have the diagnosis at her age means that her condition has gotten bad in the past to the extent she has needed medical intervention - but it is only an advantage that she has this diagnosis because she has access to the appropriate support.

She needs to utilise that support as she is running head first into total estrangement with her son because her disorder will not allow her to stop the behaviours he has an issue with, nor will it even allow her to see those behaviours. Your advice that she “set her own boundaries” with her son is absurd in her situation.

I have advised Ladysuisei on other threads to please reach out to her GP. It is the only way here and I can imagine her son would be completely supportive of her if she went down this path. He has dealt with this his entire life and, despite everything, is still clinging onto maintaining a relationship with her. And she can’t see that.

Ladysuisei

Whiff

Ladysusiei why would you take any blame for what your son is doing or what your daughter in law done. My son decided to estrange me his choice not mine. So I take no blame for his actions. He and he alone is to blame . I have no doubt my daughter in law is the back of it . But it was my son who sent the email which I know he didn't write on his own as his spelling and lack of punctuation wasn't present. It was worded to perfectly. But his letter was all him spelling and lack of punctuation.

I have always treated my children equally before and after my husband died and treated both couples equally. If I am such an awful mother then my daughter and son in law wouldn't want me in there lives. My son in law after the estrangement said he knew something wasn't right for years but wouldn't say anything to hurt me.

That's the difference who are children love . Unfortunately we have no control who we love as there is no rythme or reason to it.

But we can control how much we will put up with from our children. You mention listening to you tube is he estranged from one or more of his children them if not then he does not know what it feels like and therefore it's a waste of time listening to him. It's like taking advice from someone who hasn't had a husband or partner die they have no idea how it feels .

You have to ask yourself how much more can you put up with your son treating you like crap. You are grieving for your partner he doesn't care and if your health is suffering also how ill do you want to get . Your daughter in law has already said you won't see the baby . She won't change her mind. And your son won't go against her wishes.

Don't contact him wait for him to contact you .

@whiff firstly this psychologist on YouTube is an expert in estrangement because he was estranged from his eldest daughter for quite a while ( around 7 years I think he said ) , so he does speak from experience. I dont agree with his methods mind you . His book details a 10 step method whereby the EP take full responsibility for everything in their endeavours to achieve reconciliation. I won’t be buying his book . His argument is that AC hold all the power so you give them full “ validation “ and dance to their tune . Obviously he’s American, where everyone is in therapy and life is so different from here. I was wondering if anyone on here has watched him - but I wouldn’t recommend his methods .
You say that we have no control over the children who we love , which is so true . Also I think I’m in a minority only having one child who I seem to be losing . I won’t feel like a mother if I lose him and my GS but I’ll need to deal with this should it happen.
Oh I know what you mean about people who liken the death of your partner to that say of a parent - it’s no way even similar. My mum died 2 years before DP and yes , I was dreadful for a year afterwards but I healed . We both know you don’t heal from losing your life partner, also like @DiamondLily and @Allsorts , who have suffered this particular loss . I won’t listen to anyone who compares this to other losses ( except perhaps that of a child , which I’ve no experience of ) .
I think I’m putting up with crap as such because over the last couple of weeks my son hasn’t lost it - he was in a bad mood but that’s different. I am able to get more perspective when he comes and we don’t have a good morning- a while back I would be distraught. This was before I joined here . Whiff , I was just exploring whether I had possibly contributed to this rift , not taking the blame as such . I don’t really think I’m to blame but from their perspective I’ve done something wrong . I’m not sure what mind ? xxx

Frankly, I would stay off of things like YouTube and all the psychobabble around.🙄

Your son is an adult and responsible for his behaviour.

As is your DIL, pregnant or not.

As are you and your dad.

We all have to own, and take responsibility for, our own actions, as adults.

Younger people today, despite all the pods, books etc are less resilient than any previous generation - because some can’t cope properly with normal stress.

www.kqed.org/mindshift/60624/young-adults-are-struggling-with-their-mental-health-is-more-childhood-independence-the-answer

Lady, absolutely, fingers crossed she has a short, straightforward labo

sI've had 3 and none of them were smooth

@March - you know what so long as all is well with the 3 of them , I’m happy to put my feelings to one side for a while . Given her mum had PND more than once ( she’s got 3 children) I am worried my DIL will suffer too . I know her mum’s worried already . It’s awful when hormones tip the balance of your mind like this - let’s hope that she has a “ good “ labour ad opposed to one like mine . That was always my worry - that she’d be carrying a baby of 9”4 and 59cm long then get stuck . She doesn’t seem to be carrying a huge baby like I did , so st least when she goes into labour this might [
]be ok - apart for the pain

@Madgran thank you for your excellent reply to GG65 - that saved me having to bother ! Quite rightly I can’t control what comes out of my dad’s mouth- mind you he’s not coming in next time other than to say hello !!

*Actually I’m just hoping for the safe arrival sooner rather than later then all the stress should hopefully stop . Let’s just hope my DIL doesn’t suffer mentally afterwards, because from your experience you had both didn’t you ? I’m hoping she will be ok . This has gone so much further than possible estrangement- my concerns now are solely the welfare of the 3 of them . We can sort out other matters afterwards can’t we xxx"

Yes I did! Which I think was the straw that broke the camels back, for me anyway, I very much disengaged. It's just cruel bringing arguments and drama to a fresh new mom and baby.

Apologies for not replying to you sooner, it's been a week and we are only on Monday
You're not going to melt into a puddle because you admit some blame, you might look back and think '.. probably shouldn't of said that'

This is the first time we've all experienced life, including them, we can't say how we'd react to every situation put in front of us. We are human. Growth is what we all have in common. I do think there's a light

@Smiles I think I’m already going mad trying to dissect the situation going on around me . My personality requires me to always know “ why “ ? When in reality there’s often not an answer that I’ll ever know.
I know it looks bonkers that me and AS still get together every Sunday when it appears we hate every minute . Sometimes I wonder myself. I think I’m afraid to stop seeing him in case he doesn’t come back . I don’t know why he comes - maybe he likes seeing his dear old mum !!
The whole situation is surreal actually xxx

Whiff

Ladysusiei why would you take any blame for what your son is doing or what your daughter in law done. My son decided to estrange me his choice not mine. So I take no blame for his actions. He and he alone is to blame . I have no doubt my daughter in law is the back of it . But it was my son who sent the email which I know he didn't write on his own as his spelling and lack of punctuation wasn't present. It was worded to perfectly. But his letter was all him spelling and lack of punctuation.

I have always treated my children equally before and after my husband died and treated both couples equally. If I am such an awful mother then my daughter and son in law wouldn't want me in there lives. My son in law after the estrangement said he knew something wasn't right for years but wouldn't say anything to hurt me.

That's the difference who are children love . Unfortunately we have no control who we love as there is no rythme or reason to it.

But we can control how much we will put up with from our children. You mention listening to you tube is he estranged from one or more of his children them if not then he does not know what it feels like and therefore it's a waste of time listening to him. It's like taking advice from someone who hasn't had a husband or partner die they have no idea how it feels .

You have to ask yourself how much more can you put up with your son treating you like crap. You are grieving for your partner he doesn't care and if your health is suffering also how ill do you want to get . Your daughter in law has already said you won't see the baby . She won't change her mind. And your son won't go against her wishes.

Don't contact him wait for him to contact you .

@whiff firstly this psychologist on YouTube is an expert in estrangement because he was estranged from his eldest daughter for quite a while ( around 7 years I think he said ) , so he does speak from experience. I dont agree with his methods mind you . His book details a 10 step method whereby the EP take full responsibility for everything in their endeavours to achieve reconciliation. I won’t be buying his book . His argument is that AC hold all the power so you give them full “ validation “ and dance to their tune . Obviously he’s American, where everyone is in therapy and life is so different from here. I was wondering if anyone on here has watched him - but I wouldn’t recommend his methods .
You say that we have no control over the children who we love , which is so true . Also I think I’m in a minority only having one child who I seem to be losing . I won’t feel like a mother if I lose him and my GS but I’ll need to deal with this should it happen.
Oh I know what you mean about people who liken the death of your partner to that say of a parent - it’s no way even similar. My mum died 2 years before DP and yes , I was dreadful for a year afterwards but I healed . We both know you don’t heal from losing your life partner, also like @DiamondLily and @Allsorts , who have suffered this particular loss . I won’t listen to anyone who compares this to other losses ( except perhaps that of a child , which I’ve no experience of ) .
I think I’m putting up with crap as such because over the last couple of weeks my son hasn’t lost it - he was in a bad mood but that’s different. I am able to get more perspective when he comes and we don’t have a good morning- a while back I would be distraught. This was before I joined here . Whiff , I was just exploring whether I had possibly contributed to this rift , not taking the blame as such . I don’t really think I’m to blame but from their perspective I’ve done something wrong . I’m not sure what mind ? xxx

I know that's not what you're implying Ladysu .

You're going to drive yourself insane if you keep trying to dissect your relationship with him to try and find out what you've done wrong. We've done that and it's the road to nowhere. If he has reasons then he should say what they are.

Our DS used to say his brother 'had issues' and in the end I told him I wasn't interested in his issues unless I knew what those issues were.

I'm just looking for anyone to blame other than my son ultimately it's your son whose responsible for what he's doing now, and if you do end up never being able to see your GS, he'll ultimately be responsible for that too.

@March yes my dad knows about DIL going into hospital and about the fact that she’s suffering mentally- I’ve not been specific about how though . Problem is he’s 83 and I know he’s wanting things to be “ sorted out “ between me and my AS . I did have a word with him after Sunday’s visit and said next time ( if there is a next time - she’s almost due I suppose) we need to keep calm and lay off talking about the baby . As in whether we will see him . Actually I’m just hoping for the safe arrival sooner rather than later then all the stress should hopefully stop . Let’s just hope my DIL doesn’t suffer mentally afterwards, because from your experience you had both didn’t you ? I’m hoping she will be ok . This has gone so much further than possible estrangement- my concerns now are solely the welfare of the 3 of them . We can sort out other matters afterwards can’t we xxx

@Allsorts well yes he does choose to come . I can see how worried he is which is why I steer him towards light conversations. Actually I did think it would give him a break coming over for a few hours on a Sunday morning. He works from home , doesn’t go anywhere other than here once a week and I thought it might do him good to get out . I’ve told him I’m here for him . In fact this weekend he arrived in a bad mood . I’m actually concerned about him , but unless he opens up then I’ll never know what’s bothering him . I’m happy if he’s happy- only thing is he isn’t . I’m shocked by how poorly he looks , but his MIL keeps in contact with me and assures me the pregnancy is fine . What am I supposed to think ?

Which for me begs the question why does he continue to 'phone her and visit her once a week Allsorts. He's the one instigating this contact and he can't be enjoying it anymore than Ladysu, so what's the point?

I'll never know how you managed it DL. They treated him so cruelly and it was a terrible thing for you to witness year after year.

Like you Whiff, we take no blame for our estrangement. It was his choice, not ours.

@Smiles sorry I meant to stress that in no way am I implying that EPs and EGPs on the support thread deserve to be estranged . I don’t think I deserve it either - I’m just looking for anyone to blame other than my son . That’s tragic . xxx

Smileless2012

Parents have to take blame where there is blame, as do their AC Ladysu but this requires sensible and calm discussion.

You say maybe your son feels you've smothered him, if so he needs to say so and why he feels that way. You would then be able to take on board what he's said, reflect and be able to understand where he's coming from.

It's virtually impossible to have a personal relationship with someone who says for example 'you're never going to be able to see your GC' and simply expects you to accept that, with no further explanation. 'Because I say so and my decision is final' is not an explanation and certainly doesn't demonstrate any desire to work on your relationship moving forward, or any attempt to salvage it. It's a brick wall, a fait accompli.

He's not saying why, what you've done or do that he doesn't like. He's not giving you the opportunity to do things differently so hopefully you will be able to see your GS in the future. There's no 50/50 here that I can see.

Yes, give him more freedom. Which is why I've previously suggested that you suggest he focus all his time and energy on his wife for the time being because his 'phone calls and visits only appear to be adding to his stress, and are stressful for you too.

@Smiles it’s difficult I think . I’ve been reflecting on how I am , possible reasons for why this relationship is on the rocks etc and also trying to think about what some people have said on here . Now I know for a fact that so many AC will estrange for no reason whatsoever, because I’ve seen so much evidence on here . I think I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt which might turn out to bite me on the bum . I know that your situation and many others too just came without warning with no reason. The thing is my AS has been acting strange for so long surely if it was a no fault estrangement ( ie he just felt like doing it ) then maybe he would have done this already . At the moment, I can’t really have any rational discussion but after the baby comes then I expect him to talk to me . I think I’m giving him some breathing space .
I thought about what you said when I move and I will do this - I don’t want a new place tainted by nastiness .
I’m not sure if it’s a 50 50 chance of seeing the child - like you , my trust has dwindled to nothing really. It’s a case of waiting to see . I agree that being told “ because I say so “ is not adequate as a reason for not seeing my GS . I know that keeping a relationship going with my son only is not going to work . I asked him how he expected this to work in practice, to which he says he’d know . I’m interested to know but I’ll need to wait and see .
Yes strangely having the freedom to have more space with his wife seems to make him even more stressed . I’m really not sure what’s going on . I can’t find out because I don’t see them together- all I know is that she’s someone who I’d describe as hard work . The apology I sent via her mother has been rejected, so she’s not willing to try . This tells me that she’s happy living with trouble going on around her despite needing “ no stress whatsoever “ . Nothing makes sense .
In fact , talking this situation through with a friend yesterday was quite funny because his assessment of things was they sound mentally unstable.
I simply don’t want to show him the door - I’d rather he did this to me , so he’s got to live with his decision. It’s not something I could live with- partly because my family would then blame me for everything that’s gone wrong . It isn’t my fault - well apart from possibly smothering him with my love . Honestly you couldn’t make this up ! xxx

I would just calmly leave it until the baby is born and his wife is well, tell him you’re here when he wants to see you. He has too much going on and must be worried sick, he doesn’t need pressure and the meetings are just that, he doesn’t want to discuss things and gets irate, if he doesn't see you that won’t happen.

Ladysusiei why would you take any blame for what your son is doing or what your daughter in law done. My son decided to estrange me his choice not mine. So I take no blame for his actions. He and he alone is to blame . I have no doubt my daughter in law is the back of it . But it was my son who sent the email which I know he didn't write on his own as his spelling and lack of punctuation wasn't present. It was worded to perfectly. But his letter was all him spelling and lack of punctuation.

I have always treated my children equally before and after my husband died and treated both couples equally. If I am such an awful mother then my daughter and son in law wouldn't want me in there lives. My son in law after the estrangement said he knew something wasn't right for years but wouldn't say anything to hurt me.

That's the difference who are children love . Unfortunately we have no control who we love as there is no rythme or reason to it.

But we can control how much we will put up with from our children. You mention listening to you tube is he estranged from one or more of his children them if not then he does not know what it feels like and therefore it's a waste of time listening to him. It's like taking advice from someone who hasn't had a husband or partner die they have no idea how it feels .

You have to ask yourself how much more can you put up with your son treating you like crap. You are grieving for your partner he doesn't care and if your health is suffering also how ill do you want to get . Your daughter in law has already said you won't see the baby . She won't change her mind. And your son won't go against her wishes.

Don't contact him wait for him to contact you .

Lady, well done for keeping things calm.
Might be worth having a chat with your Dad about the plan of keeping things neutral and light.

Does your Dad know DIL was in hospital and she's suffering with her mental health?

Smileless - Well, it does reach a point where doing the “eggshell tap dance” around AC’s becomes self defeating. Unless the AC is willing to sort out what the problem actually is, it’s just draining.

As you know, I spent 18 years watching DH bounced in and out of estrangement with his adult children, and basically treated like he was rubbish they’d bought in on their shoes.

Except when they wanted a cash hand-out from him of course.🙄

But, he was desperate to keep them, and his GCs, in his life, so he pandered to it. They all said he’d been a wonderful Dad, so I still haven’t got a clue what motivated them.😗

I bit my tongue, to support him, all the while thinking that I’d never put up with this nonsense from my ACs.

Before he died, he said that my family were the family he wished he’d always had.

But, my SC are out of my life now - they skulked off when they realised that he’d cut them out of his will.

Well, we reap what we sow.😉

Excellent response to GG65 Madgran.

Parents have to take blame where there is blame, as do their AC Ladysu but this requires sensible and calm discussion.

You say maybe your son feels you've smothered him, if so he needs to say so and why he feels that way. You would then be able to take on board what he's said, reflect and be able to understand where he's coming from.

It's virtually impossible to have a personal relationship with someone who says for example 'you're never going to be able to see your GC' and simply expects you to accept that, with no further explanation. 'Because I say so and my decision is final' is not an explanation and certainly doesn't demonstrate any desire to work on your relationship moving forward, or any attempt to salvage it. It's a brick wall, a fait accompli.

He's not saying why, what you've done or do that he doesn't like. He's not giving you the opportunity to do things differently so hopefully you will be able to see your GS in the future. There's no 50/50 here that I can see.

Yes, give him more freedom. Which is why I've previously suggested that you suggest he focus all his time and energy on his wife for the time being because his 'phone calls and visits only appear to be adding to his stress, and are stressful for you too.