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Estrangement

In danger of becoming estranged from adult children

(243 Posts)
ElaineMcG47 Sun 17-Mar-24 00:34:30

I have two children aged 20 (boy) and 22 (girl)who are university students in Ireland. The oldest finishes university at the end of April. In Ireland, unless you are very poor, parents have to pay for university. I moved to the UK 18 months ago to get a better job to be able to support my children through university.

The children live in a house that I own in Dublin - I bought it when I was 23. They pay no rent as they are students. I pay all the utility bills and maintain and insure the house. They have a very expensive lifestyle as students - lots of foreign holidays, designer clothes, out drinking several nights a week, eat only at the best restaurants and cafes, have Sushi delivered to the door when they feel like it, and take taxis whenever they wake up late and can't get to work and/or university on time. They work full-time and go to university to be able to pay for their expensive lifestyles. They still get good grades.

However, they treat the house with terrible disrespect and me to, a lot of the time - I am a single parents since they were aged 3 and 18 months. There has been an infestation of mice in the house on two occasions. The last time this happened, the pest control company said it was the worst mouse infestation they had seen in a private house - and the infestation led to the neighbours house being infested also. This happened because my children, particularly my daughter, left food lying around uncovered, and bits of old food in the sink. I was renting out a room in the house at the time to another student. She had left food rotting on the table and kitchen work surfaces for a week. My children never let me know this, or never asked her to clean up, or never cleaned up the rotting food themselves to prevent a mouse infestation. When my children discovered there was mice in, they never let me know for two months. The final bill to get rid of the mice was 560 euros for the pest control company, and 2163 euros to defumigate the house afterwards and get rid of all the mice droppings. The children, but more particularly my daughter, are still not cleaning up the house. My son will do it sometimes with a couple of reminders. I went over last week to the house, the day after a new heating system was put in which cost 7000 euros, the bin in the kitchen was overflowing, there were pizza boxes with half eaten pizzas on the table, and bits of food in the sink. The external bin had not been put out for collection for several weeks and was overflowing. The carboard rubbish that my son had gotten from his Ikea delivery was left in the front garden. When I asked my daughter to empty the kitchen bin and dispose of the pizza boxes and their contents, she went mad, saying she hadn't time, that it wasn't her job, saying she hadn't time as she was going to work - the external bin is in the front of the house, so on her way out to work. Later I discovered she had no work that day.

There is a Ukranian girl now sharing the house who is lovely and keeps the house clean, but who has to do more than her fair share, because my two children won't help, though she acknowledges that my son helps a lot more than my daughter. This Ukranian girl states my daughter refused to help with any of the cleaning, leaves clothes everyone in the kitchen and sitting room, leaves used sanitary towels sticking out of bins and leaves takeaway foods uncovered and rotting in the fridge until they smell. About three years ago, there were two German girls sharing the house with my children and they couldn't cope with my duaghter's mess, leaving clothes everywhere, not cleaning up, and letting her dog pee everywhere and refusing to clean it up afterwards.

There is a back story to this, and apologies if I am long-winded. My daughter has always been quite a difficult person from a young age. Terrible temper tantrums from aged 2. In teenage years, she would scream the house down if the clothes she wanted to wear for school were in the wash - no uniform for school. Boundaries never worked - her demands were never given in to, and she lost privileges such as pocket money for bad behaviour. She also bullied her brother a lot and would make him cry - when I saw it, I always intervened, though they are still very close and tell each other everything and will back each other up against me. Other people have also found my daughter very difficult including teachers, and the family she stayed with in France when she spent a year there during the fourth year of secondary schooling - she had wanted to this and it was very expensive to do - 15000 for the year. As a teenager she would often threaten to tell social work that I was beating them up, and threaten that she would get my son taken away from me. She used to tell my son that I beat her up, and he would take her side, but when I asked him had he ever seen me beat her up, he would say he never had. She would also tell neighbours that I had assaulted her. When she used to threaten social work, I used to give her the telephone number to ring - I worked in healthcare so had the relevant numbers.

However, there is more of a back story to this. My son is not blameless either. I was very close to my son until he was about 14. At this time, he started to mix in with a bad crowd, and nothing I said or did could dissuade him from this, and he resented how much I tried to keep tabs on him. My son eventually started stealing from me, discovered the pin numbers for my online bank account, sold items from the house - cameras etc. He would have friends in when I was not there and they would eat all the food in the house, so it would be all gone within a day or two - this was before they went to university. They both had parties in the house when I was on night duty - I had to work four nights per month, and once when I went away for a night with my best friend. They damaged the work surfaces in the kitchen by dancing on them, damaged sofas by them and their friends vomiting on them. I had a converted attic in the house which was used as a den, and they put cigarette burns in the furniture and threw burning shorts and jeans out of the attic windows.

Things came to a head in those years before university, when my son age 16 decided to hide drugs in the house for one of his undesirable friends in exchange for 50 euros - the house was subsequently raided on a tip off by our police, the Gardai.. My son subsequently had to go into hiding as there was a threat on his life from the loss of money because the drugs were seized. This meant he had to change school as the drug gang knew which school he attended. No state school would take him because of the risk, but I got him into a private school, which cost 8000 per year. I had to work 55 hours per week though to pay for this school for two years, and eventually suffered with burnout. My son and daughter also had to move out of what was our family home to where they live now, which was my first house, which I had bought at a very young age and managed to keep. The gang tried to intimidate me in my home, and I was living in fear of being petrol bombed for the drug debt. A member of the gang came to my house one night. I knew who was ringing at my door, and I rang the police and they were arrested.

These were not children who were neglected. They did lots of after school activities, which they wanted to do. My daughter's hobby was sailing, and I paid for all this, including her sailing exams. They both also loved music, and had piano, singing, drum and saxaphone lessons. We travelled each summer abroad. They had lots of support with school, and I paid for extra tuition as they needed it.

I guess here, I would just like some opinions. Because of all that has happened, I feel a lot of resentment towards my children, and don't feel any real connection to them anymore. My daughter in particular, has always treated me with some contempt. If I text her, she will not respond for days, or until she needs something from me. If I try and arrange to do something nice with her, she will fob me off constantly. If I talk about how their behaviour has upset me or how I find it disrespectful, they become angry and annoyed and just walk away. If I say that something they have done or said has hurt me, and I feel the need to talk about it, they again become angry and blaming and everything is my fault. It's a big effort for them to do anything for Mother's Day or my birthday - if I don't remind them beforehand they won't do anything, yet I always go out of my way to celebrate their birthdays and buy them something nice, and also to make Christmas special. They will meet up with me when I am home sometimes, but they seem only interested if I am taking them out to an expensive restaurant or with the promise of cocktails and a serious amount of alcohol, and so it's gets expensive for me to try and maintain a relationship with them. Tea/coffee and cake in the local cafe or breakfast/lunch in a local bar is not enticing for them.

I am no longer sure, I can maintain a relationship with both of them. I still feel so resentful and sad about all that has happened and the way they have treated me, and that's impacting on my life, friendships and my relationship with my partner. I am working full-time abroad in the UK, but feel no longer able to do this - just wrecked by everything, and want to work part-time, but I can't sell the house where they are living because they are still in university, but yet I cannot stand to go there, and all the pressure to maintain it when they treat it so badly. After the last night when my daughter refused to empty the overflowing bin, I said I didn't want a relationship with her anymore, that I was so tired of trying to support them when they treated me and the house so badly.

Apologies for such a long post, and thanks to whoever manages to read through it, I just need some direction and advice on all this.

Smileless2012 Sun 01-Dec-24 11:49:10

I feel that having estranged your own mother mumless has coloured your response to Elaine. EAC blaming the parents they've estranged for what's wrong in their lives is I'm afraid all too familiar.

Your post came on at 23.29 UK time yet you say you're in Australia and it's rather late. A strange thing to say as Australian time is between 7 and 9 hours ahead of us here, depending on where in Aus. you live, so the time of your post would have been between 6.30 am and 8.30 am; early in the morning, not late at night.

NoMoreThanks Sun 01-Dec-24 06:18:59

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Mumless Sat 30-Nov-24 23:29:11

I’m writing this response as an adult (M40) who has gone no contact with my mum.

There is a lot to take in regarding your situation including all the responses, I have only read your initial post and the first few responses from other members.

I also think it’s worth noting that there are always two sides to a story, members here can’t truely comprehend your situation unless your children are also part of the discussion, which I do understand is not possible. Even without their inclusion here I will give you my feedback purely based on what I have read here which is surface level stuff.

1 - you say you resent your children because of what they have done to you, however it seems your children have resented you for a very long time. You can’t seem to fathom or disclose anything negative about your parenting of them as children and teenagers. To you, or the image you impose is that you are the perfect mother. You sound like an educated and intelligent woman so unfortunately saying you don’t recall anything substantial is not going to cut it. That substantial issue may not have been one particular event it could be many events repeated over and over again seemingly being ignored by you or being wilfully ignorant. Unless both your children are phycotic / mentally unstable which they are not as you mentioned they both have full time jobs and pass their university exams fine, then the reason they behave this way towards you is simply a reflection of your own parenting / morals and values you instilled upon them growing up. The fact they behave like this at such an early adult age and from both of them means to me that yes they were a lot of substantial issues with your parenting skills whilst they were growing up.

2 - you own that property outright. You have and have had it seems plenty of students in their renting rooms and you take that rent as payment, you are profiting of those tenants which is great well done. I’m sure you are paying very low income tax with offsetting things due to that. Regarding your children not paying rent, again this is a one sided story, did you promise your kids this house for when they were in university? Did you want them to go to that university so you could be closer to them limiting their choice of university and their education desires? Hanging that carrot over them for years but now possibly taking it away from them will not work for you. I suggest thinking is it worth it as you are clearly still making money from other tenants who I’m sure off set the cost of having your kids there.

3 - cleanliness, again we are not told how this was treated when they were growing up. Children don’t just walk out of the family home and become full functioning adults they need direction even something as small as why you need to put the bins out and what goes in what bin. Students and even adults are messy, this is just how some ppl are there is a difference between being messy and unclean/ unhygienic.
As you stated your kids seem to have a very busy social life, this is fantastic and they can afford to do the things they want to do like go on overseas holidays and go out for dinner and drinks, the way you worded your post initially makes it sound like you pay for all of this but then it’s mentioned that no in fact they pay for their lifestyle not you. You own the house and they don’t pay rent but you don’t pay their rent. You mentioned you pay the electricity, I’m sure other tenants pay their share of electricity though and as being an intelligent woman I imagine you have it worked out where your kids electricity is absorbed into the other tenants costs. So in actual fact - you pay nothing towards them now they are adults.
Don’t include social outings as an allowance or something, your kids like a boozy lunch so what? If you don’t want to pay the don’t pay but also don’t expect your kids to go to tea and cake cafes they have made it clear that’s not what they want so if you can’t fathom that then stop. On that note boozy lunches, apple doesn’t fall far from the tree - nothing mentions this and I understand why no one wants to talk about alcohol consumption as it’s probably deemed a private issue - however it is an issue especially if it’s a daily occurrence and occurred during their childhood. No mention of ex husband / father? When did you get divorced/why?

4 - the Ukrainian roommate. I find this relationship you have with her extremely disturbing. Seems you also had a relationship with the two Germans as well. Pretending to be a responsible landlord but actually just spying on your children and gossiping on baseless allegations is wrong on so many levels. The fact you are quite happy to disclose this and not realise how crap this behaviour is starts to paint a much better picture for me about your parenting skills.

5 - not validating your emotions. On surface level it seems to me you didn’t validate their emotional experiences growing up so now they are old enough to understand this they are simply doing what you did to them. The trust in your relationship with your kids seems to have been burnt a long time ago. I don’t know if it can be fixed as I don’t know the entire story and the fact that you end your post with that you resent them and possibly want to cut them off rather then “I love my kids, I really want to work at this and figure something out” then unfortunately I don’t think you want to save it. Your post is for validation of being a victim not one for constructive feedback on your parenting skills and help fixing your relationship with your adult kids.

5 - your workload. Again being smart and intelligent (just like your kids seem to be) means higher up corporate roles. Being a single mother is difficult in itself, being a single mum working corporate in foreign countries and I imagine being away from your young children as they grow would/ should be difficult. You need to think about this for a while, did you find that difficult? Or did you just do what had to be done but more in a way because it supported the lifestyle you had been accustomed to and now that your children had been accustomed to that you instilled onto them?

I could put many more points but I am in Australia and it’s rather late. I do want you to know that I have gone no contact with my own mum, completely different from your own issues but things still tend to overlap. Again this is surface level feedback and I only know so much.

You can be a lovely person but unless you’re capable of being truely honest and transparent with your adult children, being able to take on constructive criticism and acknowledge that maybe you were an absent parent for a large part of their lives then you will need to accept that your relationship with your children has ended.

Caleo Tue 24-Sept-24 15:56:20

I agree with the others who say sell up and leave the young people to do what they have to learn to do: they certainly do need to learn social and life skills!

It may make you feel a little better if you send them £5 each at odd intervals.

Babs03 Tue 24-Sept-24 15:39:31

@Elaine sorry to hear about your health. This makes it even more imperative that you put your well being first, your life matters as much as your ACs. The abuse you have suffered shouldn’t define you, stop the cycle now and stay away from your children for now, give yourself time to breathe.
They will survive but you could struggle.
Wishing you all the very best xx

welbeck Tue 24-Sept-24 11:59:07

if your son is clever and resourceful enough to work full time and still excel at his studies, he can work to support himself at college.
rather than spending wasting it on his social life.
don't have him living with you to cause you endless angst.
sorry to hear of your health problems; now is really the time to put yourself first for once.
surely you don't really think you are evil, a bad mother.
some people are just utterly selfish, and will take what they can, whenever they can, while it's easy.
there is no honour in being a doormat.
shake the dust from your bristles !
your life matters.
you are at least as valuable a human as they are.
and don't expect any sympathy or consideration from them.
be your own best friend.
all the best.

Smileless2012 Tue 24-Sept-24 08:49:20

The hardest thing I think Elaine is realising that it's AC who are/is bad because no one wants to have to believe that their child can be.

I'm so sorry you've had bad news regarding your health which makes it even more imperative that you take care of you. Your AC are old enough to look after themselves flowers.

ElaineMcG47 Tue 24-Sept-24 07:18:53

Thanks Babs03 and Allsorts. I agree their behaviour us abusive. I know what you mean Babs03 about abuse so diminishing your confidence so that you can't call the abuse out. Unfortunately, I already feel like that. I feel like I must be such a bad person, evil even, for my children to treat me like they do. Some of what they say to me is lije what their dad would have said to me. We separated when they were only 3 and 18 months. And he chose not to be in their life from ages 10 and 12, but my daughter has some contact with him since she turned 18. I got some quite bad news re my health yesterday, do am going to be moving back to Ireland before Christmas now.

Trixie76. I sm so sorry to heat that you moved in with your daughter snd her fiance only then to be evicted. That's a terrible situation yo be in! I hope you have found somewhere stable to live and some supports and friendship in the local community.

Smileless2012 Mon 23-Sept-24 18:22:29

Trixie that's terrible and I wish I was surprised, but when I read of how some AC treat their parents very little surprises me now flowers.

Like Babs, I hope you're safe and taking care of you.

Babs03 Mon 23-Sept-24 18:11:54

Trixie76

Have you had this terrible experience?

No but it sounds terrible.
So sorry it has happened and hope you are safe and looking after your well-being.
X

Trixie76 Mon 23-Sept-24 18:02:15

Have you had this terrible experience?

Trixie76 Mon 23-Sept-24 18:00:59

Son and his fiance evicted me. I moved to be closer to them. I am now very alone.

DiamondLily Mon 23-Sept-24 17:13:32

Babs03

Sorry, typos there, but you get the drift.
Where is the edit button?

There’s not an edit button. 🤷‍♀️

Babs03 Mon 23-Sept-24 10:01:42

Sorry, typos there, but you get the drift.
Where is the edit button?

Babs03 Mon 23-Sept-24 10:00:51

We took years of abuse, enabling our daughter by continuing to take it, is hard to understand why anyone puts up with it tie so long but the very nature of abuse is that it diminishes your self confidence so much that you can’t call it our effectively.
It broke us. Don’t let it go this to you. You are so much better than this. Call it out now and stop taking it, distance yourself from your children and let them get on with it.
Take care xx

Allsorts Mon 23-Sept-24 06:23:49

The are both abusive to you. Your son has done well in as much as he's secured a good position when University finishes, after a very difficult time mid teens and has turned that round.. They have both developed this attitude that you're there to be shouted at whilst paying all the bills. Only you can decide if that's how you want your future to be. Any more shouting over the phone just say calmly you're ending the call as you won't be spoken to like that. Don't sort out their mistakes. As for the central heating I would get it sorted but one more slip, he gets cold let him manage without it. You do risk estrangement but you've no life as it is. Any more shouting and abuse from either of them tell them to go out and come back when they can speak to you properly. I would not put up with them trashing the house as you have, you must have the patuence of a saint.

ElaineMcG47 Sun 22-Sept-24 19:55:22

Yes, JaneJudge. You are correct. I inherited a small Irish cottage from my uncle about 130 miles from Dublin. It's inhabitable but needs doing up - only an old range for heating which stopped working recently -it needs plumbing, heating, new wiring and insulation. I was hoping to sell the house my son lives in and use about 70k of that for my uncles old house as well as buying a small two bed apartment just over into the next county which is cheaper and easily commutable by bus to Dublin. Semi-retirement means that I will need to work part-time until I retire and there are limited jobs where my uncles cottage is - though that's where I will live full-time when I get my State pension. I also wanted a two-bed so that my son could stay with me until the end of college but I don't think I will last another two years with this atmosphere.

Re being abusive - yes I know he is being abusive to me. When he got involved in drugs briefly 5 years ago, his drugs counsellor used to tell him not to be so arrogant and that his lack of empathy for me and what he had put me through with the drugs issue was abusive.

Outside of our relationship, he has done well. He worked full time to fund his social life but has gotten the top 20 of 130 classmates, and he has now secured an post-graduate position in an investment banking firm from his internship which will start in May 2025.

However, the ongoing contempt from both of them for me is impacting my mental health and actually my relationship with my partner. I just feel sad and down about it a lot of the time. If I say anything to him about how I feel, it's immediate anger and blaming and saying 'I'm a shxt mother,' I have a 'temper,' 'no one likes me - my daughter says this too when annoyed, or that he can't remember his childhood or anything good about it.

JaneJudge Sun 22-Sept-24 18:35:34

Are you only buying the apartment for him to live in? you mentioned before you could retire into a small cottage (your Uncles?) could you not do that?

I would offer to go to family counselling with him but it sounds like he is being abusive to you and you have already had to put up with that with their Father ad it makes you conditioned to how you are behaving

15 miles on a bus is nothinf ffs at 21

Oldbat1 Sun 22-Sept-24 17:47:12

What is it with these entitled children? You are a much much nicer person than me! I certainly wouldnt stand for it - they would be gone years ago. I have a difficult dd who accused me of all sorts over the years even telling my work colleagues she was hungry as there was no food in the house - we could live for a couple of months from our store cupboard. She is now 44 unemployed divorced and luckily childless. I wish you well.

DiamondLily Sun 22-Sept-24 17:09:21

ElaineMcG47

Thanks Madgran77 and Smileless2012. It's good advice. He is working as a paid intern for the third year of college and is saving, and has a girlfriend, so it is possible them to find somewhere together.
I would have offered him stay until the end of college in April 2026, but the atmosphere is very tense when I come home - it feels like contempt for me - I feel like a visitor in my own home. He is barely talking to me since I spoke to him about the issue with the Hive. I just feel sad and down about it all - it seems to be on my mind all the time.

His attitude is down to him. Do what you need to do to give you peace and happiness. 💐

ElaineMcG47 Sun 22-Sept-24 17:00:07

Thanks Madgran77 and Smileless2012. It's good advice. He is working as a paid intern for the third year of college and is saving, and has a girlfriend, so it is possible them to find somewhere together.
I would have offered him stay until the end of college in April 2026, but the atmosphere is very tense when I come home - it feels like contempt for me - I feel like a visitor in my own home. He is barely talking to me since I spoke to him about the issue with the Hive. I just feel sad and down about it all - it seems to be on my mind all the time.

Smileless2012 Fri 20-Sept-24 15:07:01

Excellent advice from Madgran Elaine and I hope you take it.

Your son hasn't changed and isn't about too anytime soon so in your position I wouldn't risk him living with you until he finishes uni. How will you be able to get him to leave when the time comes if he refuses to do so?

He's taking advantage and you really do need to put a stop to it once and for all.

Madgran77 Fri 20-Sept-24 14:52:01

Frankly I do not think you should let him stay with you any longer. That is an unusual thing for me to say as standing by one's children as adults will always be my default. But in this particular situation and knowing that you have tried over time to communicate and to sort out problems, I really think that he needs to learn the hard way!

I said if that happened again,I wouldbe leaving his belongings on the doorstep

You threatened the above; now do it after this last Hive situation. Tell him that you will no longer tolerate his behaviour; ignoring your specific and explained requests; his rudeness; his disrespect of you and your belongings etc. Tell him that if he is ever willing to sit down and have a calm conversation with appropriate listening and opportunity for both of you to understand each others perspective then you are very willing and keen to do that. But that luving together is not working. Tell him he is welcome to visit when you are over to catch up and have a meal

He has to then sort himself out/sofa surf and generally realise life's realities for himself. I know how hard this will be as well as scary ...but what alternative do you have to change the status quo?

ElaineMcG47 Fri 20-Sept-24 11:49:42

Hello! Just qn update. My daughter has gone travelling ans will be abroad until April 2027. My son is still in the house. The house is going on the market on the 2nd week of October. I am downzizing to a two bed apartment if the house sells and I told my son he could have a room there until he finishes university in June 2026. As I mentioned earlier it is almost impossible for students to get accommodation in Dublin. He has bern making some effort with the house but requires constant reminders yo do things. At the moment when I come home from the UK, he is not talking to me, no hello, no asking if I need anything if he is getting a lunch roll from the shop.
About 5 weeks ago he mislaid part of a Hive system for our heating. He removed the Internet and the Hive to his room from downstairs., but didn't
plug it in and lost a piece that came with it, though I managed to buy this piece separately and it was only 30 euros. I was annoyed with him and sent him a text - I was in the UK - that I had asked him not to remove the Hive and Internet from downstairs as it was meeded to turn and and off the heating, which we use for hot water in the summer. The new heating system and Hive were installed in Feb costing 7000k in total including 500 gor five. We can't operate the heating system on a schedule without it or without getting a manual timer installed instead. There is a Ukranuan girl shating the house who needs the hot water too.

I texted him and said over text I was really annoyed and that the heating couldn't be scheduled without it. I asked him to find the other piece and sort it out after he returned from his weekend away. He got really mad at me saying I always tell lies that it would work without the Hive. He said then that I have a temper and that's why he never rings me. If you see the original post, I have put up with a huge amount. My neighbour used to say he didn't know how I put up with it all and I was a very quiet woman to do so. It serms I can't even get justifiably annoyed but I am accused of having a temper or telling lies. This reaction from my son has happened a lot over the years. When I tried to talk to him before about how it seemed he and his sister always seemed to be dissing me and critic8sing me, and I needed to talk about it and understand what was going on, he started shouting at me in the restaurant, saying I was a shit mother, that I was trying to come between himself and his sister. I ended up in tears and there was no move from him to show any empathy or sympathy. I felt then and in iur recent interaction anout the Hive, that my son se4ms to enjoy the piwer of having the ability to hurt me. It was the same this time when I texted back that I was really hurt by his accusation that I was telling lies or had a temper. I reminded him of what our neighbour had after witnessing my son and daughter destroy my house as teenagers and then my son get caught hiding drugs.

So sorry for ling post. I want to give my son accommidation until he is finishes university but I don't think I will be able to cope coming home even two weekends qnd facing this atmosphere. My son is also really angry that I am selling the house - I want to semi retire as all that has happened with my children has impacted my mental health and led to feeling life is joyless. Downsizing would enable me to semi-retire. However. My son is really angry saying all his friends live near the house and if we move he will have to travel 15 miles to college. There are buses and trains evey 30 mins that are heavily subsidised for children and college students andI would be happy to nake a 20/25 euro contribution to his bustard each week.

Also, would any of uou here th8nk just staying quiet about bein annoyed would have been better. I feel I have to bite my tongue so often and can never clear the air about anything.
I forgot to.mention thst one of the issues that I have been addresd8ng with him over the last several years us locking the house when he leaves. He never locks the fr9nt door. He only started doing it after I became really exasperated when I came home late one night to find the door unlocked yet again, and I said if that happened again,I woul be leaving his belongings on the doorstep. He has a long term habit of living and forgetting keys bit I felt that at 21 this was now too much. All comments and constructive criticism welcome@

OnwardandUpward Tue 06-Aug-24 12:54:09

Ooops I meant in paragraph 2 that they have no consideration for the parent