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Estrangement

In danger of becoming estranged from adult children

(243 Posts)
ElaineMcG47 Sun 17-Mar-24 00:34:30

I have two children aged 20 (boy) and 22 (girl)who are university students in Ireland. The oldest finishes university at the end of April. In Ireland, unless you are very poor, parents have to pay for university. I moved to the UK 18 months ago to get a better job to be able to support my children through university.

The children live in a house that I own in Dublin - I bought it when I was 23. They pay no rent as they are students. I pay all the utility bills and maintain and insure the house. They have a very expensive lifestyle as students - lots of foreign holidays, designer clothes, out drinking several nights a week, eat only at the best restaurants and cafes, have Sushi delivered to the door when they feel like it, and take taxis whenever they wake up late and can't get to work and/or university on time. They work full-time and go to university to be able to pay for their expensive lifestyles. They still get good grades.

However, they treat the house with terrible disrespect and me to, a lot of the time - I am a single parents since they were aged 3 and 18 months. There has been an infestation of mice in the house on two occasions. The last time this happened, the pest control company said it was the worst mouse infestation they had seen in a private house - and the infestation led to the neighbours house being infested also. This happened because my children, particularly my daughter, left food lying around uncovered, and bits of old food in the sink. I was renting out a room in the house at the time to another student. She had left food rotting on the table and kitchen work surfaces for a week. My children never let me know this, or never asked her to clean up, or never cleaned up the rotting food themselves to prevent a mouse infestation. When my children discovered there was mice in, they never let me know for two months. The final bill to get rid of the mice was 560 euros for the pest control company, and 2163 euros to defumigate the house afterwards and get rid of all the mice droppings. The children, but more particularly my daughter, are still not cleaning up the house. My son will do it sometimes with a couple of reminders. I went over last week to the house, the day after a new heating system was put in which cost 7000 euros, the bin in the kitchen was overflowing, there were pizza boxes with half eaten pizzas on the table, and bits of food in the sink. The external bin had not been put out for collection for several weeks and was overflowing. The carboard rubbish that my son had gotten from his Ikea delivery was left in the front garden. When I asked my daughter to empty the kitchen bin and dispose of the pizza boxes and their contents, she went mad, saying she hadn't time, that it wasn't her job, saying she hadn't time as she was going to work - the external bin is in the front of the house, so on her way out to work. Later I discovered she had no work that day.

There is a Ukranian girl now sharing the house who is lovely and keeps the house clean, but who has to do more than her fair share, because my two children won't help, though she acknowledges that my son helps a lot more than my daughter. This Ukranian girl states my daughter refused to help with any of the cleaning, leaves clothes everyone in the kitchen and sitting room, leaves used sanitary towels sticking out of bins and leaves takeaway foods uncovered and rotting in the fridge until they smell. About three years ago, there were two German girls sharing the house with my children and they couldn't cope with my duaghter's mess, leaving clothes everywhere, not cleaning up, and letting her dog pee everywhere and refusing to clean it up afterwards.

There is a back story to this, and apologies if I am long-winded. My daughter has always been quite a difficult person from a young age. Terrible temper tantrums from aged 2. In teenage years, she would scream the house down if the clothes she wanted to wear for school were in the wash - no uniform for school. Boundaries never worked - her demands were never given in to, and she lost privileges such as pocket money for bad behaviour. She also bullied her brother a lot and would make him cry - when I saw it, I always intervened, though they are still very close and tell each other everything and will back each other up against me. Other people have also found my daughter very difficult including teachers, and the family she stayed with in France when she spent a year there during the fourth year of secondary schooling - she had wanted to this and it was very expensive to do - 15000 for the year. As a teenager she would often threaten to tell social work that I was beating them up, and threaten that she would get my son taken away from me. She used to tell my son that I beat her up, and he would take her side, but when I asked him had he ever seen me beat her up, he would say he never had. She would also tell neighbours that I had assaulted her. When she used to threaten social work, I used to give her the telephone number to ring - I worked in healthcare so had the relevant numbers.

However, there is more of a back story to this. My son is not blameless either. I was very close to my son until he was about 14. At this time, he started to mix in with a bad crowd, and nothing I said or did could dissuade him from this, and he resented how much I tried to keep tabs on him. My son eventually started stealing from me, discovered the pin numbers for my online bank account, sold items from the house - cameras etc. He would have friends in when I was not there and they would eat all the food in the house, so it would be all gone within a day or two - this was before they went to university. They both had parties in the house when I was on night duty - I had to work four nights per month, and once when I went away for a night with my best friend. They damaged the work surfaces in the kitchen by dancing on them, damaged sofas by them and their friends vomiting on them. I had a converted attic in the house which was used as a den, and they put cigarette burns in the furniture and threw burning shorts and jeans out of the attic windows.

Things came to a head in those years before university, when my son age 16 decided to hide drugs in the house for one of his undesirable friends in exchange for 50 euros - the house was subsequently raided on a tip off by our police, the Gardai.. My son subsequently had to go into hiding as there was a threat on his life from the loss of money because the drugs were seized. This meant he had to change school as the drug gang knew which school he attended. No state school would take him because of the risk, but I got him into a private school, which cost 8000 per year. I had to work 55 hours per week though to pay for this school for two years, and eventually suffered with burnout. My son and daughter also had to move out of what was our family home to where they live now, which was my first house, which I had bought at a very young age and managed to keep. The gang tried to intimidate me in my home, and I was living in fear of being petrol bombed for the drug debt. A member of the gang came to my house one night. I knew who was ringing at my door, and I rang the police and they were arrested.

These were not children who were neglected. They did lots of after school activities, which they wanted to do. My daughter's hobby was sailing, and I paid for all this, including her sailing exams. They both also loved music, and had piano, singing, drum and saxaphone lessons. We travelled each summer abroad. They had lots of support with school, and I paid for extra tuition as they needed it.

I guess here, I would just like some opinions. Because of all that has happened, I feel a lot of resentment towards my children, and don't feel any real connection to them anymore. My daughter in particular, has always treated me with some contempt. If I text her, she will not respond for days, or until she needs something from me. If I try and arrange to do something nice with her, she will fob me off constantly. If I talk about how their behaviour has upset me or how I find it disrespectful, they become angry and annoyed and just walk away. If I say that something they have done or said has hurt me, and I feel the need to talk about it, they again become angry and blaming and everything is my fault. It's a big effort for them to do anything for Mother's Day or my birthday - if I don't remind them beforehand they won't do anything, yet I always go out of my way to celebrate their birthdays and buy them something nice, and also to make Christmas special. They will meet up with me when I am home sometimes, but they seem only interested if I am taking them out to an expensive restaurant or with the promise of cocktails and a serious amount of alcohol, and so it's gets expensive for me to try and maintain a relationship with them. Tea/coffee and cake in the local cafe or breakfast/lunch in a local bar is not enticing for them.

I am no longer sure, I can maintain a relationship with both of them. I still feel so resentful and sad about all that has happened and the way they have treated me, and that's impacting on my life, friendships and my relationship with my partner. I am working full-time abroad in the UK, but feel no longer able to do this - just wrecked by everything, and want to work part-time, but I can't sell the house where they are living because they are still in university, but yet I cannot stand to go there, and all the pressure to maintain it when they treat it so badly. After the last night when my daughter refused to empty the overflowing bin, I said I didn't want a relationship with her anymore, that I was so tired of trying to support them when they treated me and the house so badly.

Apologies for such a long post, and thanks to whoever manages to read through it, I just need some direction and advice on all this.

JaneJudge Sun 17-Mar-24 15:12:29

Elaine, I am going to go against the grain here as I have children in their 20s who live at home with me - one also at uni. I would move back into your house in Ireland and reclaim it. Say they are entitled to stay with you but you have house rules that they must obey, such as some money towards the bills and a cleaning rota so they pull their weight. I can see why you feel resentful but a lot of youngsters in their 20s are quite selfish and don't think emotionally of others, especially their parents.

Where is their Dad in all of this?

Juliet27 Sun 17-Mar-24 15:00:50

I think if I could, I'd gift them the house as early inheritance and then go off and enjoy the rest of my income

Would that be such a terrible idea? It depends, of course, on the value of the property but it certainly sounds a millstone around the neck, especially as you are paying all the utilities. and repairs by the sound of it. What a much deserved rude awakening it would be for your children if they then had to fend for themselves.

VioletSky Sun 17-Mar-24 14:58:01

VioletSky

I don't see it that way, I see it as teaching them that they are now responsible for their own bills and property and a quick and easy way to cut apron strings without causing bad feelings

But that's not advice I am giving to anyone. Just how I would handle it, so we don't need to have any arguments about it

Rafichagran

Please also leave personal comments out of threads

I would not make personal comments like that

rafichagran Sun 17-Mar-24 14:46:26

VioletSky

Stop setting yourself on fire to keep them warm

Time to charge an appropriate rent for their earnings

I think if I could, I'd gift them the house as early inheritance and then go off and enjoy the rest of my income

Give your head a wobble, why should their disgusting bad behaviour be rewarded?
Also instead of making silly contentious statements think of the Mother, she wants to work part time she cannot afford to do this, although I do accept you said if you could afford it.
You have stated in many threads you are a TA, do you reward bad behaviour? I really cannot believe you posted this.

BlueBelle Sun 17-Mar-24 14:32:42

Get started ‘in life’ not ‘ice’ sorry

BlueBelle Sun 17-Mar-24 14:30:58

I think if I could, I'd gift them the house as early inheritance and then go off and enjoy the rest of my income
Good grief what a daft idea Take no notice if that one elaine
You don’t need to reward them anymore

The girl is finished Uni in April she needs to have notice as an adult to leave within 3 months of her finish date If you need to do it officially with a solicitors letter do so personally I think keeping it formal is the best way
If you feel the boy would be able to take some responsibility without the sister (Who sounds the leader of disruption) leave him with notice for the following year when he finishes Uni. if not give them the same solicitors letter (reading about his past drug involvement probable he’s no better)

As sad as it is your duties are finished you have done WAY more than most would do WAY more than is needed for most young people and now it’s your time
I m normally very empathetic to young people struggling to get started in ice but this time I m really angry on your behalf

They’ve had MORE THAN ENOUGH

Callistemon21 Sun 17-Mar-24 14:14:22

and take taxis whenever they wake up late and can't get to work and/or university on time

I'm surprised they haven't been given their P45s (or Irish equivalent).

Mind you, if they have such wonderful well-paid jobs that they can fund an extravagant lifestyle (with your help) why do they need to get a degree?

Certainly most students have to pay rent and bills and learn a few realities of life when they first leave home.

Don't cut them off, though, make sure they know whatever you decide to do, you still love them.
One day, when they have homes of their own and keep them immaculate (and they probably will), you can go to stay and mess the place up completely, leave washing up, unmade beds, clothes and shoes everywhere. It's great revenge fun.

VioletSky Sun 17-Mar-24 13:57:57

I don't see it that way, I see it as teaching them that they are now responsible for their own bills and property and a quick and easy way to cut apron strings without causing bad feelings

But that's not advice I am giving to anyone. Just how I would handle it, so we don't need to have any arguments about it

Smileless2012 Sun 17-Mar-24 13:48:17

Gift them the house an early inheritance !!! I can't see how rewarding bad and ungrateful behaviour would be a good idea.

VioletSky Sun 17-Mar-24 13:44:27

Stop setting yourself on fire to keep them warm

Time to charge an appropriate rent for their earnings

I think if I could, I'd gift them the house as early inheritance and then go off and enjoy the rest of my income

Cossy Sun 17-Mar-24 13:07:23

As with others here I’m appalled and shocked in equal measures at your very ungrateful and frankly spoiled children.

You have over and above, frankly more than any other parent I know and I so sorry that you have found yourself in this situation!

Please, please set boundaries, show then how much money you’ve spent on the home they’re living in, tell them you’ll draw a line, not talk about the past BUT if any of the things from the past happen again you will give either or both of them notice to quit!

They would have been evicted, even from student accommodation by now and lost their damage deposit.

Please don’t let your children continue to manipulate and emotionally blackmail you any longer!

Delila Sun 17-Mar-24 12:55:57

Shelflife

Short answer to your long posts - sell the house , get them out ASAP .
Job done!!
Go for it and good luck !!

Yes this. Let your children fend for themselves. You’ll be doing them a kindness.

2020convert Sun 17-Mar-24 12:54:32

As others have said, you need legal advice regarding options for the house and / or how soon you can evict or demand rent, then on default of payment and keeping to the rental agreement, evict. Do these other occupants pay for their accommodation, and if so, who do they pay?

Celieanne86 Sun 17-Mar-24 12:44:46

Shelflife

Short answer to your long posts - sell the house , get them out ASAP .
Job done!!
Go for it and good luck !!

I feel very sorry for you Elaine there is nothing worse than an ungrateful child as I well know and yes I have read everything you have written and all the replies and the one quoted above is the one I totally agree with, start thinking of yourself for a change. Happy St Patrick’s day ☘️

Callistemon21 Sun 17-Mar-24 12:34:51

I agree with other posters.

Don't keep enabling them.
The house value will depreciate too if you don't do something about this asap.

MissAdventure Sun 17-Mar-24 11:52:18

You're enabling them, and are now seeing the results.

Shelflife Sun 17-Mar-24 11:47:32

Short answer to your long posts - sell the house , get them out ASAP .
Job done!!
Go for it and good luck !!

rafichagran Sun 17-Mar-24 11:47:06

What a lazy entitled pair, no more enabling, kick them out. Your son is just as bad as your daughter, they are adults now and should not need constantly reminding about basic hygiene in your home. Your daughters entitlement is astounding.

Let your daughter see she has no rights, get the solicitors letter sent, when she has to stand on her own two feet, and realise she cannot have the life she has now it might make her think.

swampy1961 Sun 17-Mar-24 11:16:48

You have done more than enough for your ungrateful children and now need to concentrate on yourself.
If your children can't be bothered to make an effort for your birthday or Mother's Day then you must return the favour in kind!! Do nothing for their birthdays or other celebrations. If they comment then tell them that they don't care enough about you so will treat them the same way.
Their slovenliness must (IMO) go back to how they were brought up. If you always cleaned up after them - when you left them to their own devices - they probably thought the Irish leprechauns would clean up!!
You seem a little afraid of your daughter and her tantrums but if chooses to behave in this way in the outside world she will soon find herself alone and without friends.
Don't bother with trying to plan a nice activity with her - it isn't appreciated.
Call time on when your children must leave - you are just kicking the can down the road by waiting until later in the year. Life can be tough and they can begin to learn just how tough beginning from now. Their comfort is not your concern now - they are supposedly adults so can learn how difficult life can get starting now. In your place I would be packing their rooms up and moving it in to storage, change the locks, clean up and then sell up.
Save your money for yourself - your DCs tastes are too expensive for you - if they are so affluent why are they not paying for you for a change. Because they are just purely self centered and selfish.
Sadly the dynamic does change when your children become adults and you must go along with it and adjust your life to accommodate this.
I have two ACs and 3 SACs and where we have quite a bit of contact with some of them with others we don't, partly because of distance, partly because they do develop their own lives, careers and relationships.
You have been given lots of advice and need to become selfish for your own sake. You have a partner and much to look forward to with him so only work as much as you need to for own comfort and get rid of the millstones around neck like the house and ungrateful ACs. You can still have a relationship with them but you won't be letting them walk all over you. Be strong.

pascal30 Sun 17-Mar-24 10:02:36

Perhaps it would be easier to regain your house if you move back into it.. Then if the children refuse to leave at the end of the notice period you change the locks.. and then sell the house. You have done your work and it's well time for them to grow up and feel some gratitude.. I'm afraid that there are many young people now who have a very entitled attitude to life. This will not help them and needs to be challenged. Be very strong..

Grammaretto Sun 17-Mar-24 09:35:00

Sorry, on re-reading I understand that you are all Irish and it was you who left for England and a better job.
Do you want to be in Ireland again? It sounds like you do.
Surely less money but being with your partner and near those pesky DC would be preferable.
You have done your work. The kids are grown and quite capable of living independently.
Well done . It's time for you to put yourself first.

Primrose53 Sun 17-Mar-24 09:28:17

Gosh, what a sorry saga. Where is their Father?

They can’t be at Uni forever so tell them NOW that as soon as they are finished, that’s it.

It is staggering how disgustingly filthy some young people are. A woman who lived near us told me that her daughter left soiled sanitary pads and dirty underwear in her room. She now works for the BBC! I also heard about a super bright 16 year old girl who wees on rolled up towels on the bedroom floor rather than use the toilet!

Grammaretto Sun 17-Mar-24 09:22:24

Thanks for coming back with more explanation Elaine although I don’t know why, if it's your partner's home but not yours, your DC go to university there in Ireland.
I must have missed something.

Sorry to hear about your poor health.

I hope you can get some good legal advice and that you are able to sell the house. Property can be a burden even without "tenants" leaving windows open and pizza boxes in the garden.

I came back from a month away to find a fence blown down and rubbish in the garden, blown in from the street! I had nobody to blame grin

Smileless2012 Sun 17-Mar-24 09:05:09

What a terrible situation to be in Elaine.

In your position I would seek legal advice to have them evicted, this will require giving them notice and a date by which they'll need to vacate the property. Once they've gone, you can get the house into a saleable condition.

As an estranged parent, I can understand your fear that they may estrange you, but as with any adult relationship it's not just what you bring to that relationship, but also what you receive.

You wouldn't I'm sure tolerate this from anyone else, and being a child isn't a blank cheque to treat your parent(s) so appallingly.

At some point, they're going to have to be self supporting, functioning adults and if you want to enable them to be so, as Whiff has posted, tough love is needed and it's needed now, for your sake and theirs.

ElaineMcG47 Sun 17-Mar-24 09:00:25

Thanks, CrazyH, I had a good sleep - helped, I think, by getting everything out.

Thanks to all of you for your advice - it's been really helpful and echoes what my partner has been saying.

My partner and I have been together for four years - he lives in Ireland, and we see each other every second weekend. . He doesn't have children, but has siblings and nieces and nephews. He is shocked at the way they treat me and the house. He has seen the state of the way they leave the house when we have gone to Dublin for a visit. We were only together a few months, when I got a call to say the velux window in the attic room had been damaged, wouldn't close and had to be repaired as an emergency, costing a few hundred euros - - luckily not replaced - as my daughter had left it open during a storm - despite being constantly reminded to close it during storms and when she left the house.

It's difficult in Ireland as there are no student loans - despite what some people in the UK might think - I feel they are a good thing as it means children only have minimal need for parental support during university, and get to stand on their own two feet from 18/19.

Re evicting them - the rental crisis is worse in Ireland than in the UK. Students who are living outside of Dublin are commuting up to four hours each day or sleeping overnight in cars if they have classes the next day.

I have asked my daughter to leave. She is finished her degree at the end of April. It would be difficult for her to get accommodation near where she works - she is a swim teacher and life guard, but I have given her an ultimatum of moving out by the 31st October, which will give her 5/6 months to save up a deposit and somewhere suitable to live.

If she stayed in the house after that, it puts me in a difficult situation with Revenue/Taxation here. If the parent doesn't live in the house with their adult child, a parent has to pay tax as if they were renting the room to the child even if the child is not paying rent and the rent has to be a market rate. This requirements starts six months after they have finished their degree. My daughter laughs when I say this to her and takes no notice. After the bin incident - when she refused to empty it -and I told her she would have to leave and she would definitely need to leave by end October, she stated she had rights to the house and no one could evict her. Certainly, her brother would let her back in if I changed the locks. When I tried to sell it last year, she would not answer the estate agents calls re arranging viewings - I was in the UK - and when there were viewings, the house was left in a mess. I have spoken to a solicitor, and he confirmed that she has no rights to the house. He is going to send her a letter confirming this in May, after she finishes college, and stating that she needs to move out by the 31st October.

In relation to my son, he does help now with some of the cleaning around the house, but needs a fair bit of prompting and reminding. His attitude to me is, on the surface, okay, but if I say I am upset or hurt about anything he does, didn't do or says, he gets really angry and defensive, and suddenly I have been a 'shxt' mother, but when there is no conflict between us, I am the mother who all his friends thing is 'a legend.'

Someone mentioned that it is going to be suggested to me to get counselling for us. I am a mental health nurse and have a counselling qualification. I have tried different approaches from behavioural, CBT, psycodynamic with my children, and have reached out to others for help for them, but to no avail. I understand that they are acting in a very selfish and narcistic manner towards me. When my son, in his good moments, tells me that his friends think I am 'a legend,' it is because I always welcomed their friends into our home, and often their friends would open up to me about their own mental health issues and struggles at home. Some of them, for a couple of years after they all left school, would ring me for a chat.

Re my own mental health and whether I receive any joy from my children. I haven't received any sense of joy from my children for several years. I have just motored on and done what I feel I need to do to get them through school and college, so that they can at least have a good education. I have tried to maintain the relationship and not antagonise them, but as I mentioned above, maintaining the relationship gets expensive when they are not interested in meeting up if it's not an expensive cafe or restaurant. It gets exhausting and mentally damaging, as I always have to bite my tongue and can never express how I feel in response to their actions, or else I will meet a wall of anger, denial and blame. I want to semi-retire now and only work part-time and come back to Ireland to be with my partner full-time. I haven't been able to do that as the expenses for my children with university fees and maintaining the house etc have been significant and burdensome. I am lucky to still be alive at this age as my family, including myself, have the BRCA gene. My partner has also had cancer recently. Often though, the way that they have behaved has impacted on me so much, that if I got cancer at this stage, it wouldn't matter to me.

Re enabling - yes, I feel that I am enabling them at this stage. Why I have found it so difficult to put a stop to it, is that parents are expected to pay for college in Ireland, and that there is no student support or loan system once you are earning over a certain wage. At the top of the staff nurse scale, I was earning too much to get any State support for my children's fees or a grant for their support through college. Also, culturally, most Irish parents, because there is no student support unless on a very low income, support their children through college, either by paying their rent and fees, or buying them a car to commute to college or paying their annual bus fare ticket, and they don't usually charge them rent at home until they are finished college, even though nearly all students work part-time. This is how it is for all of their friends, yet I hear their friends being caring and kind towards their parents - helping to collect them from the airport, doing something nice for their mums on mother's day, or their father's on father's day. My partner can never get over the fact that though I fly into Dublin late in the evening - usually about 12.00 a.m or slightly after, my son never offers to pick me up from the airport which is three miles away from the house they live in - I have asked but there is always an excuse, so after the bus leaves me off, I walk the mile home with my bags. My son has a car - which I took out a loan for - after the incident with the drugs - it wasn't safe for him to drive to work in the City centre or surrounding areas - as a lot of members of that drug gang converged on the City centre daily.

Re financially - I need now, for health reasons, to just work part-time. I have very little private pension as I worked in so many different nursing jobs depending on the needs of my children. When they were in their mid teenage years, I took a demotion and worked in a local nursing home, so I could come for my lunch and tea-breaks to make sure they didn't have undesirable friends over eating our food and making a mess in the house. The house that they are living in is my pension.

Thanks again to all of you for your replies - it clarifies what I need to do. It is so helpful to be able to say all that has happened out and to get some perspective on it.

Blessing to you all on this St. Patrick's Day.