Estrangement advice

I don't really understand what either of you are talking about about in regards to my comment

Toxic people are toxic, as understood by the law and therapists, it's always better to recognise and avoid people like that... It has nothing to do with "sensitivities" and there is nothing wrong with being sensitive anyway

Yes Madgan where knowledge gives power is only a good thing if that power is used responsibly and along side is the ability to recognise the limitations if they exist, of that knowledge.

VioletSky

It's always good to be able to identify unsafe people and take measures to protect your mental health from them Madgran77

As an autistic person I look like an even easier target for this due to the way I communicate compared to others but knowledge is power

Yes it is VS. And we all do that in our own ways I suppose and see unsafe in different ways perhaps.

Knowledge certainly does give power and also responsibility which
is where I think nuance and interpretation and sensitivities play a part.

Anyway as I said it is good that you have made the right decision for you.

It's always good to be able to identify unsafe people and take measures to protect your mental health from them Madgran77

As an autistic person I look like an even easier target for this due to the way I communicate compared to others but knowledge is power

VS I'm sorry all that happened. You still did the right thing by trying to give that opportunity although I understand that the results caused so much pain. And I can understand why you regret bothering to try and have a better relationship.

I get the impression that you ARE clear that in the end your decision to estrange completely was the right one for you and your family. Which is good.

How people operate towards victims of abuse; my observation would be that that has many variations and that victims of many scenarios respond and interpret in many different ways.
Sensitivities can make easy pickings for those who either choose to use them negatively or are unaware of the impact on their own responses or others interpretations. Sensitivities can also create quite genuine misunderstandings too and/or valid differing interpretations on a particular subject or scenario. There may be some faux misunderstandings or faux hurt feelings; just not always (I know you didnt suggest it was always btw)

I'm not trying to enter into a debate/argument/disagreement/ "misunderstanding" or anything else on this at all. I hope that nothing I have said suggests that I am as that is NOT my intention.

Regarding the thread I think all the posts have raised many things for people to think about whatever their situation and hopefully will be helpful to some.

They knew I was going too DL because we talked about it when they asked me to look after our GC but it probably suits them not to acknowledge it because in the end it was done for nothing.

I think it would be too unbelievable to be a story line in a soap opera Madgran, and we know how ridiculous some of those can be.

Thank you Iam.

Smiles 💖🌻🌞

Madgran77 it's easy to think that but unfortunately it just gave her ammunition to use against me. She shared it with the whole family and what resulted was a family wide assault on me. Even my brother that was estranged for 10 years himself after the appalling way he was treated in childhood... Because he just thinks he was a bad kid now.

Abusive people are very good at what they do. I'll give an example... If we were having a family visit, she would get me alone before hand and literally tear me to shreds. How I looked, how I spoke (I retain my South London accent but she made hers go away), my children, my partner... Then she would tell me my family were ashamed of me and that they had said xyz about me. I'd be a mess and embarrassed to be around these people.

It's easy to convince others what they didn't see didn't happen. It's easy to hide emotional abuse and it's even easier when you sabotage their relationships with the rest of the family.

I regret the time I spent trying to have a better relationship with her... It cost me a suicide attempt, a nervous breakdown half my adult life lost to depression and anxiety

And these people walk around quietly seeking praise and attention and validation for how wonderful they are... And they get it because they are very difficult to spot without the signs

One sign, watch how they treat a victim of abuse, they think they are easy targets to bully and ridicule. Watch how they work to turn others against them by changing the narrative, twisting their words or engineering "misunderstandings" and faux hurt feelings.

Anyway the opposite is true in time and abuse victims have the potential to be powerful and all that nonsense just washes away

VioletSky

Yes, I did offer an explanation, in person when I told her that our relationship was impacting me and my children negatively where I offered joint counseling (she laughed in my face) and by email when I estranged.

It's good that you gave opportunities for your reasons to be heard VS. If they weren't heard or listened to then that is a pity but at least you did the right thing by offering an explanation and a potential "solution" with joint counselling.

And it is good that you are clear that your decision was the right one for you and for your family.

Smileless2012

Thank you SingcoTime.

Exactly a year before the note on Christmas Eve, I traded from my gift shop for the last time. I closed it down because they'd asked me to provide child care 3 days a week, and I couldn't do both.

Our GS was going to go to a childminder one day a week and our son had already arranged to consolidate his working week into 4 days, so he would spend one day with his son.

She then discovered she'd have to return to work earlier than expected because she'd brought her maternity leave forward due to having a lot of time off during the pregnancy. I was asked to have him for 4 days for a couple of months until the child minder had a vacancy; I agreed.

Then out of the blue I was told they'd decided he wouldn't be coming to me at all, he'd go to the child minder. In consultation with them, we'd purchased everything we needed for me to look after him in our home and ended up returning it all.

Luckily I'd bought everything from a mail order catalogue I'd dealt with for years and they agreed to take everything back and refunded the cost.

We saw very little of them as a family, but our son continued to have regular contact mostly through 'phone calls, all of which were made when he was on his way home from work or walking the dog. That was unusual but we didn't place any importance on it.

We were asked not to just call round, which we weren't doing anyway even though they lived just up the road. He emailed us telling us they needed some space but we weren't to worry because they knew how much we loved our GS and would never stop us from seeing him.

We thought it was an odd thing to say but weren't worried because there was nothing to suggest that there was anything wrong with our relationship with him or her. We naively assumed that things would settle down once they'd adjusted to being new parents and all would be well.

We'd done everything that had been asked of us and had no choice but to accept the changes to the child care arrangements we'd all originally agreed upon.

Of course it was too late for my gift shop. I'd ceased trading, we own the premises and had already found a new tenant. I don't think it ever occurred to them that the only reason I'd closed it was to look after our GS, which in the end I never got to do.

I've just re read this before posting and even I find it all hard to believe. More than 11 years on we still can't get our heads around it, and I don't think we ever will.

I don’t blame you. They must have known you would have given up your shop.

Both sound flakey and self centred, to be honest.💐

Smileless2012

Thank you SingcoTime.

Exactly a year before the note on Christmas Eve, I traded from my gift shop for the last time. I closed it down because they'd asked me to provide child care 3 days a week, and I couldn't do both.

Our GS was going to go to a childminder one day a week and our son had already arranged to consolidate his working week into 4 days, so he would spend one day with his son.

She then discovered she'd have to return to work earlier than expected because she'd brought her maternity leave forward due to having a lot of time off during the pregnancy. I was asked to have him for 4 days for a couple of months until the child minder had a vacancy; I agreed.

Then out of the blue I was told they'd decided he wouldn't be coming to me at all, he'd go to the child minder. In consultation with them, we'd purchased everything we needed for me to look after him in our home and ended up returning it all.

Luckily I'd bought everything from a mail order catalogue I'd dealt with for years and they agreed to take everything back and refunded the cost.

We saw very little of them as a family, but our son continued to have regular contact mostly through 'phone calls, all of which were made when he was on his way home from work or walking the dog. That was unusual but we didn't place any importance on it.

We were asked not to just call round, which we weren't doing anyway even though they lived just up the road. He emailed us telling us they needed some space but we weren't to worry because they knew how much we loved our GS and would never stop us from seeing him.

We thought it was an odd thing to say but weren't worried because there was nothing to suggest that there was anything wrong with our relationship with him or her. We naively assumed that things would settle down once they'd adjusted to being new parents and all would be well.

We'd done everything that had been asked of us and had no choice but to accept the changes to the child care arrangements we'd all originally agreed upon.

Of course it was too late for my gift shop. I'd ceased trading, we own the premises and had already found a new tenant. I don't think it ever occurred to them that the only reason I'd closed it was to look after our GS, which in the end I never got to do.

I've just re read this before posting and even I find it all hard to believe. More than 11 years on we still can't get our heads around it, and I don't think we ever will.

I'm not surprised that you can't get your head round it Smileless! 💐

I think, if `ACs want anything changed, then they need to state, clearly, what the issues are.

If you do that, and it is rebuffed, then ok. You do what you need to do.

But, to just not explain and than somehow expect people to change, is unrealistic. People aren’t mind readers.. 😗

Yes, I did offer an explanation, in person when I told her that our relationship was impacting me and my children negatively where I offered joint counseling (she laughed in my face) and by email when I estranged.

Thank you SingcoTime.

Exactly a year before the note on Christmas Eve, I traded from my gift shop for the last time. I closed it down because they'd asked me to provide child care 3 days a week, and I couldn't do both.

Our GS was going to go to a childminder one day a week and our son had already arranged to consolidate his working week into 4 days, so he would spend one day with his son.

She then discovered she'd have to return to work earlier than expected because she'd brought her maternity leave forward due to having a lot of time off during the pregnancy. I was asked to have him for 4 days for a couple of months until the child minder had a vacancy; I agreed.

Then out of the blue I was told they'd decided he wouldn't be coming to me at all, he'd go to the child minder. In consultation with them, we'd purchased everything we needed for me to look after him in our home and ended up returning it all.

Luckily I'd bought everything from a mail order catalogue I'd dealt with for years and they agreed to take everything back and refunded the cost.

We saw very little of them as a family, but our son continued to have regular contact mostly through 'phone calls, all of which were made when he was on his way home from work or walking the dog. That was unusual but we didn't place any importance on it.

We were asked not to just call round, which we weren't doing anyway even though they lived just up the road. He emailed us telling us they needed some space but we weren't to worry because they knew how much we loved our GS and would never stop us from seeing him.

We thought it was an odd thing to say but weren't worried because there was nothing to suggest that there was anything wrong with our relationship with him or her. We naively assumed that things would settle down once they'd adjusted to being new parents and all would be well.

We'd done everything that had been asked of us and had no choice but to accept the changes to the child care arrangements we'd all originally agreed upon.

Of course it was too late for my gift shop. I'd ceased trading, we own the premises and had already found a new tenant. I don't think it ever occurred to them that the only reason I'd closed it was to look after our GS, which in the end I never got to do.

I've just re read this before posting and even I find it all hard to believe. More than 11 years on we still can't get our heads around it, and I don't think we ever will.

SingcoTime

People get too caught up in relationship titles. The truth is that people can be toxic whether they are MILs/DILs Sons/Fathers. I never bought much into the AC Vs EPs titles because the dysfunctional or problematic individuals in the relationships would be no less problematic no matter their familial relations. People are people. Same for entitled people. The behaviour will manifest differently depending on whom they are dealing with, but it will be there no matter what. The imperfections of their targets often give them a sense of justification for their mistreatment, but it is a false justification that the problematic individual recites ad naseum to convince themselves and others that their horrid behaviour is rational and just. The result is often relationship breakdown.

No, I agree. Mt stepsons were unpleasant individuals and that would have applied, whoever they were.

Shame though.

Yes, I agree with you Madgran. Overall I think it’s been a stimulating and constructive discussion with fair comment from a variety of standpoints.

VioletSky

DiamondLily

For what it’s worth, I think it’s extremely cowardly to estrange someone (anyone) and not explain the reasons why.

There is then no chance for discussion/compromise/making amends.

I explain. Whether people accept it or not is up to them, but no one has ever been left in doubt as to my reasons.

I do wonder whether some ACs will find themselves in the same position one day. My stepson’s children watched their parents, and how they treated DH, his ex and their other gran, and I saw their young adult children start to treat them with the same level of disrespect.

Karma can be a buggar if it bounces back on them. 😗

No one owes an abusive person and explanation

Even so, many get one.. it simply

Didn't happen, and if it did, it wasn't that bad, and if it was it was not a big deal, and if it is, it wasn't their fault, and if it was, they didn't mean it, and if they did... you deserved it.

Agreed on abusive people not being owed an explanation. I do draw the line in asking people who were treated maliciously to go explain to their abuser why they don't want a relationship. That's absurd. However, for the relationships where it's death by a million paper cuts I personally would attempt provide clarity to the other party where my boundaries are, as well as the potential result of continuously crossing said boundaries.

In the events leading up to my husband asking my PIL to respect the fact that we couldn't continue a relationship with them, there were several sit-downs as a result of some pretty awful incidents where we explained our need for healthy boundaries and respectful interaction. We were told we were being ridiculous, she denied saying some pretty awful things where witnesses even overheard, and the guilt tripping and gaslighting was incessant. In hindsight I would have cut contact for myself long before we did, but I am glad my husband came to the decision on his own. No one should be subjected to someone minimizing their hurt in these conversations.

My brother just stays in contact to stay in the will... Especially now my share is also his

I heard recently that they plan to move closer to him and he now plans to move further away

The apple did not fall far from the tree there

DiamondLily

For what it’s worth, I think it’s extremely cowardly to estrange someone (anyone) and not explain the reasons why.

There is then no chance for discussion/compromise/making amends.

I explain. Whether people accept it or not is up to them, but no one has ever been left in doubt as to my reasons.

I do wonder whether some ACs will find themselves in the same position one day. My stepson’s children watched their parents, and how they treated DH, his ex and their other gran, and I saw their young adult children start to treat them with the same level of disrespect.

Karma can be a buggar if it bounces back on them. 😗

No one owes an abusive person and explanation

Even so, many get one.. it simply

Didn't happen, and if it did, it wasn't that bad, and if it was it was not a big deal, and if it is, it wasn't their fault, and if it was, they didn't mean it, and if they did... you deserved it.

My MIL had awful relationships with every woman her sons have been in a relationship with. She also has a frosty relationship with her MIL, whom I absolutely adore. Both of her sons keep distance, with my husband having no active relationship with her. Yet in her eyes, we are the problem. I am the problem. She would never look at the common denominator in any relationship breakdown because self-reflection isn't in her wheelhouse . Her being a mother or MIL has nothing to do with it.

People get too caught up in relationship titles. The truth is that people can be toxic whether they are MILs/DILs Sons/Fathers. I never bought much into the AC Vs EPs titles because the dysfunctional or problematic individuals in the relationships would be no less problematic no matter their familial relations. People are people. Same for entitled people. The behaviour will manifest differently depending on whom they are dealing with, but it will be there no matter what. The imperfections of their targets often give them a sense of justification for their mistreatment, but it is a false justification that the problematic individual recites ad naseum to convince themselves and others that their horrid behaviour is rational and just. The result is often relationship breakdown.

SingcoTime

DiamondLily

Iam64

An outbreak of consensus- fabulous
Perseptions and memories can differ

Yes, they can.

Attitudes vary - what one person finds unacceptable, another person might think was pretty normal.

Times change as well - my childhood was in the 1950’s - child rearing wasn’t the same as it is now. It was often stricter/harder. Not everything was child centric then.

What was seen as pretty ok then might not seem that way now.

But, with certain things, the facts don’t change.

If a person (adult), categorically says or does something, no amount of spin can change it. 🙂

Oh I agree wholeheartedly on facts not changing. Views on the facts may differ, but the facts themselves are where I feel a world of a difference could be made if both parties in any dispute can acknowledge exist. Arguing other people's feelings is silly imo. No one can speak for the other party when it comes to how something is received. For example, if one person says "I've treated you with nothing but love & respect" and the other party says "I don't feel you were respectful or loving at all", one perspective doesn't necessarily cancel out the other. It means the two parties have differing views on what love and respect are.

I think the best we can hope for is for all parties to understand that all adults are entitled to boundaries. If one person doesn't view another person's treatment as respectful or loving, dismissing it and expecting them to "suffer" the treatment just because they are related is not realistic or even ethically correct. We all have a right to the relationships we consider healthy and conducive to happiness. When a relationship proves opposite, we must do what we have to do. We only get one life. It's too short to spend it miserably. And I think this comes to the forefront when we have children of our own. For my husband and I, the idea of spending our lives with someone who we felt was so disrespectful to us as a nuclear family was too much to bear. We wanted our children to see that love didn't entail manipulation, control, passive aggression, and regular harsh criticism. We wanted them to see that respect and love need to be mutual feelings in any relationship with family and friends.

Your last sentence was too true. My MIL would often spin her objectively rude and harsh behaviour as "a mother being a mother". Funny how I've never encountered any other mother in real life who behaved the same. There was so much gaslighting on her part that for a brief moment she made me feel like my mum and my former MIL were unicorns .

No, you’re right. My stepson harangued my DH with demands for money, for his gambling/alcohol, even when my DH was dying. Not kind, not thoughtful, no counselling needed.

I never viewed it as a “son being a son”. I won’t say, on here, what I thought of him, but I could never forgive him. What sort of adult child does that to a father, who he admitted had been a lovely father?

Luckily my dying husband never saw his younger son’s latest onslaught of demands - I bought his phone home in case it got lost/stolen.

As I’ve said before, estrangements happen for a variety of reasons/non reasons, but any theory that ACs always get it right falls on stony ground with me.

They can be selfish horrible people with an overweening sense of their own superiority and entitlement. Not always, of course.

Smileless2012

Yes SingcoTime^radio silence^ sums it up perfectly. No explanation for blocking our 'phone about 8 weeks before Christmas, and no warning.

I'd 'phoned him on our return from holiday to wish him a happy birthday and heard a recorded message telling me that 'the number you are calling is no longer accepting calls from this number'.

Then our GC's first Christmas present was forced through our letter box on Christmas Eve, with a note telling us we were no longer a part of his and our GS's lives, and were to stay away.

No idea what his and his wife's views are on the estrangement and TBH after more than 11 years I wouldn't be interested to know anyway now.

Mr. S. was definitely his mum's favourite which was a source of amusement to his 4 siblings and my brother was definitely my mum's. Very sadly, their relationship proved to be damaging to them both in the end.

I've never seen an EAC given a hard time just because they're estranged VS. Responding to what they post is precisely that and has nothing to do with their estrangement status. Unfortunately that isn't always the case for EP's, as some of the posts on here demonstrate.

You're right Madgran the article has resulted in some thought provoking exchanges, which is why it's such a shame when things get personal.

Wow Smileless that's unfortunate. I am not judging your son at all, but for there to have been no conflict, no discussion, no previous hints at issues at all at any point whatsoever must have been completely perplexing to say the least. I too would find it incredibly difficult to go from no signs and symptoms of trouble to radio silence out of the clear blue. It's just so extreme to go from zero issues at all to complete estrangement. I may not be able to relate but I can empathize as a mum how that run of events could be devastating. No matter what, that type of hurt as a parent would be quite difficult for most to cope with .

DiamondLily

Iam64

An outbreak of consensus- fabulous
Perseptions and memories can differ

Yes, they can.

Attitudes vary - what one person finds unacceptable, another person might think was pretty normal.

Times change as well - my childhood was in the 1950’s - child rearing wasn’t the same as it is now. It was often stricter/harder. Not everything was child centric then.

What was seen as pretty ok then might not seem that way now.

But, with certain things, the facts don’t change.

If a person (adult), categorically says or does something, no amount of spin can change it. 🙂

Oh I agree wholeheartedly on facts not changing. Views on the facts may differ, but the facts themselves are where I feel a world of a difference could be made if both parties in any dispute can acknowledge exist. Arguing other people's feelings is silly imo. No one can speak for the other party when it comes to how something is received. For example, if one person says "I've treated you with nothing but love & respect" and the other party says "I don't feel you were respectful or loving at all", one perspective doesn't necessarily cancel out the other. It means the two parties have differing views on what love and respect are.

I think the best we can hope for is for all parties to understand that all adults are entitled to boundaries. If one person doesn't view another person's treatment as respectful or loving, dismissing it and expecting them to "suffer" the treatment just because they are related is not realistic or even ethically correct. We all have a right to the relationships we consider healthy and conducive to happiness. When a relationship proves opposite, we must do what we have to do. We only get one life. It's too short to spend it miserably. And I think this comes to the forefront when we have children of our own. For my husband and I, the idea of spending our lives with someone who we felt was so disrespectful to us as a nuclear family was too much to bear. We wanted our children to see that love didn't entail manipulation, control, passive aggression, and regular harsh criticism. We wanted them to see that respect and love need to be mutual feelings in any relationship with family and friends.

Your last sentence was too true. My MIL would often spin her objectively rude and harsh behaviour as "a mother being a mother". Funny how I've never encountered any other mother in real life who behaved the same. There was so much gaslighting on her part that for a brief moment she made me feel like my mum and my former MIL were unicorns .

For what it’s worth, I think it’s extremely cowardly to estrange someone (anyone) and not explain the reasons why.

There is then no chance for discussion/compromise/making amends.

I explain. Whether people accept it or not is up to them, but no one has ever been left in doubt as to my reasons.

I do wonder whether some ACs will find themselves in the same position one day. My stepson’s children watched their parents, and how they treated DH, his ex and their other gran, and I saw their young adult children start to treat them with the same level of disrespect.

Karma can be a buggar if it bounces back on them. 😗