Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

Sara touched on a very good point about how as a society we found disowning children for a variety of reasons perfectly acceptable, and now when offspring exercise their rights to choose who and what makes their lives happier or less, there is a problem. Everyone is entitled to live the one life we have as happy as we can, regardless of what is socially acceptable as far as power dynamics are concerned. That our society has shifted to being more acceptable to individuals owning their autonomy is a sign of progress.

As far as advice is concerned, no should be demonized for giving welcomed advice, whether it is followed or not. However, anyone who feels entitled to keep offering when it is clearly not welcome has a pathologic need to control. It shows that this individual has not the self-awareness to recognize their own lack of authority in a situation. I offer my own children as much advice as they seek, but because I recognize their autonomy as a God-given right I have no qualms about keeping my opinions to myself unless asked. I do not have dominion over these adults, so it is not hard for me. Being offended at not being able to dictate how our adult offspring raise their children is a problem of the gran, not the young parents. Masking it as merely giving advice is disingenuous if you get upset about being told the recipient doesn’t need it. Having grace about being informed advice is not needed matters more than the other party being receptive.

I love her to bits, because everything she said and did was out kindness that made me Sara and think about what a shame when loving parents, and I know that's not all parents,
feel unable to just be themselves for fear of the consequences .

But I do have a dear friend fifteen years older than me, so getting on a bit now.
All through my children’s growing up years, I was constantly asking her advice, and she was happy to give it whether I wanted it or not.
If the children wanted to do something I would say I’d talk it over with X, they seemed to accept this.
She certainly wasn’t backwards in coming forward, and was quite comfortable criticising my children, or telling them off
I love her to bits, because everything she said and did was out of kindness.

Smileless, I think it’s wise to tread with care, maybe because I’ve never been great at accepting advice, always wanting to do things my way.
But i sometimes say things like, it might be worth considering….. or maybe it’s time to think about…..
But much as I love them, they are not my children, not my call.

It's a recurring themeSkydancer and fancythat.

IMO that's the problem, why should offering advice be seen as
barging in?. I feel sorry for GP's who constantly feel the need to tread very carefully. That for me isn't a sign of a healthy relationship anymore than it would be if an AC felt they had to do the same.

Some of my mum's and GM's opinions and advice were outdated, but not all of them; they did manage to successfully manage to raise two children of their own.

Advice doesn't have to be followed if disagreed with, even if it was asked for but I don't understand why a GP, mother or m.i.l. should be demonised for giving it.

Well I think we should keep our opinions to ourselves, unless asked to do otherwise.
A lot of our opinions are outdated, and we owe it to our daughters to credit them with enough common sense to get on with the job themselves, whilst always being available if necessary.

^Reading some of the responses here on GN, it's as if 'advice' has become a dirty word!!! Don't offer advice and/or an opinion on anything to do with your GC because they're not your children. 'Keep it zipped'; 'say nothing'; 'keep your opinions to yourself' or risk being seen as overbearing at best, toxic at worst.
^

I would agree with this.
I had been thinking I had not been on GN enough to make sure I was picking up the right vibe on here,

One of my daughters regularly asks my opinion about things, but I’d never offer it otherwise, but regarding most things we are on the same page, she raises her family much as she was raised.
The other one wouldn’t ask my opinion on child raising, because she parents in a different way, but regularly asks my opinion on other matters.
I never barge in with my opinion unless I’m asked, even then I tread very carefully.

Eugenia I think £40 to £80 ish is usual here- though I'm sure it can be more in some areas of the country or
specialist types of counselling...
Some charities offer it cheaper.

If you are in America I'm definitely less surprised though!

I agree that advice does not seem to be welcomed by adult children about grandchildren these days. It is so hard not to say something though when you know you are right. I'm not saying grandparents are always right but we have experience to offer and it's sad when it is rejected. I also find it sad to hear younger people talking disrespectfully about their parents. It seems to be a Western thing. My friend who comes from China said that old people are respected there and I know it is the same in India. My friend said that when she goes back to her own country she is highly respected by her nieces and nephews.

No Sara, not intending to be at your mother's funeral doesn't make you a bad person; to go would I agree, be hypocritical. You made your decision and your posts on GN show that it was the right one for you.

not everything can be fixed, not everyone wants things fixed I totally agree with this and understand how this can apply to EP's as well as EAC.

Our relationship with our ES can't be fixed and isn't something I would want to try to achieve now. We will never have the peace and happiness we had when we were a part of his life, but the peace and happiness we've achieved has been hard won and not something we could risk losing all over again.

Judgement isn't always what it seems, sometimes it can be a huge, even if incorrect effort to fix/help the person's problem this is so true Eugenia because what can often be misconstrued as a judgement isn't judgement at all, it's what used to be called advice.

Reading some of the responses here on GN, it's as if 'advice' has become a dirty word!!! Don't offer advice and/or an opinion on anything to do with your GC because they're not your children. 'Keep it zipped'; 'say nothing'; 'keep your opinions to yourself' or risk being seen as overbearing at best, toxic at worst.

I received plenty of unsolicited advice from my mum and GM when our boys were babies. Yes at times it was extremely annoying and 'out dated' but it came from love; from their love for me and our boys.

Eugenia, nothing happened, and it’s not sad, I’m happier than I ever was when she was part of my life, not everything can be fixed, not everyone wants things fixed.

Sara1954

You can’t help how you feel, I will not be that distraught person at my mothers funeral, I won’t even be there, I would consider it to be completely hypocritical, and it won’t mean anything to me anyway.
So that’s how I feel , perhaps it makes me a bad person, certainly makes me an unforgiving person, but it is what it is, I don’t like her, I don’t think she likes me, things are much better like this.

Well I think mainly I was referring to how easy it is for people to be supportive and non judgemental when they are not intimately involved with a person in the sense that they would lose sleep over them.

Example was how I would cry over what happened to my daughter vs. a friend, although I would definately feel sorry for the friend, I wouldn't feel compelled by such intense emotions and thus I suppose, just basically again "support with no judgement" so to speak.

Judgement isn't always what it seems, sometimes it can be a huge, even if incorrect, effort to fix/help the person's problem. It's pretty easy to say and do the dumbest things when you are desperate to make a loved one feel better. I actually cried on the phone when my daughter told me about her husband taking off with a young girl and then after that, I actually tried to make her feel better by saying well it's not the end of the world I suppose......can you believe that????

Omg. Months later I realized it was the end of HER world and I wish I hadn't said what I did. Our emotions make us say and do the most idiotic things....when we are less emotional about something, seems the words of support are more neutral, to the point that it is very common responses aka I'm here for you and anything you need, etc.

Those responses sound so perfect and non judgemental, non involved, and do not try to desperately fix the situation or try to make it seem less horrible.

But more emotional involvement sometimes causes the worst instincts, as you grab at things to figure out how to stop the pain of the person you love.

Unsolicited advice, the wrong advice, good lord it can be a mess! And a lot of that could indeed sound judgemental, depending on one's tone or personality....there are a lot of people who are pull up your bootstraps kinda people, they do the tough love.

So to me, it is really hard to know what is judgement or what is actually an attempt, whether successful or failure, to try and stop the pain of a loved one.

I have learned a lot the last couple years and one thing is....I stop trying too hard to make things better for her. It won't get better. It may become normal but a family has been split and that's it.

Now on what you mention of your mom....I cannot pretend to know what happened, at all, or who is at fault. But, if you feel you don't need or want to go to her funeral, it shouldn't be done, as it would be hypocritical. And to me, I'd rather see someone while I am here; after that, what does it matter...funerals are really not for the person, but the people left behind. I can't judge you as a person or what happened. It's just all a sad situation, period.

You can’t help how you feel, I will not be that distraught person at my mothers funeral, I won’t even be there, I would consider it to be completely hypocritical, and it won’t mean anything to me anyway.
So that’s how I feel , perhaps it makes me a bad person, certainly makes me an unforgiving person, but it is what it is, I don’t like her, I don’t think she likes me, things are much better like this.

fancythat

Sara1954

I think friends can be hugely supportive, I know we all probably have a few fairweather friends, but I know for sure, that I could have always depended on my true friends far more than my parents.
and the bonus was, no judgement.

So they never told you you were wrong?

That is interesting, isn't it? I think people sometimes mistake "supportive and none judgemental" for what is not caring enough to tell you when you are wrong or making a mistake.

I seriously doubt any of my daughter's friends cried hard every night for over a year straight just laying and thinking about the horrible pain she went through after she got dumped by her husband while pregnant for a young girl. But I did. However, she tells me they were supportive and no judgements.....how lovely.

I myself was super supportive, made no judgements when my brother in law left my sister in law... I'd do things like meet her for lunch, we'd talk, etc.

However, I never shed one tear. Never really felt her pain myself, like I did for my daughter. So being "supportive and non judgemental" is actually pretty easy, really. when you don't care a whole lot.

Well, I mean, I did care some, she is a nice woman and it really sucks my brother in law couldn't stick it out past 18 years, but still.....eyes dry as the desert.

I am not saying friends cannot care deeply. But being supportive and non judgemental really doesn't add up to loving someone so much you feel their actual pain in your stomach at night.

fancythat

^People are told today to do what's best for themselves and dump anyone inconvienient^

Who says that?

You know, people who are give you any stress, literally, at all. I have read it all the time, how if someone bothers you too much in some way, like actually expecting a 2 way relationship, then maybe they are "toxic" to you. Self involved people like hearing they don't have to be there for anyone but themselves.

MercuryQueen

I think that as in all relationships there is a variety of nuance that makes blanket statements problematic.

What one person can handle, another may run for the hills. Neither is wrong.

Just as a couple of adults who make an oath of forever may find themselves divorcing for a myriad of reasons, family relationships may also break down and people may become estranged.

And I think we talk about such things more openly now. I can think of several instances where someone from older generations were disowned by parents for a myriad of reasons: pregnant out of wedlock, being gay, dating someone of the wrong race, religion or social class. It used to be more the parents decision and very hush hush, is the impression I have. One family I knew as a teen, the sister simply was never allowed to be mentioned again, as though she’d never existed.

Part of this comment I cannot fathom and that is a parent disowning their child over getting pregnant or being gay. Now it seems kids disowning their parents for breathing.

Oreo

There seem to be many parents who are estranged by their AC for no good reason, maybe their AC don’t have great mental health or are entitled narcissists themselves.
What I do know is that it’s a current fashion to say your parents are toxic, horrible word that it is. SM encourages the AC to cut out a parent root and branch.It’s an awful scene in my opinion.

Very insightful, so true! I wonder what can be done to change it all. I know one thing for sure......grandparents should have more rights than they do. Bad enough AC's hurt parents by their attitude, but then use/deprive their children as well should be against the law. If it was against the law, I'd bet we'd see more AC's stop their idiocy knowing they can't torture their parents using their kids.

Yoginimeisje

Good post Eugenia, I've always thought the same.

Thank you, truly!

Smileless2012

Ignoring the perspective of those who've estranged or those who have been estranged isn't helpful when discussing estrangement. As you say User If you aren't willing to listen because you don't like how that makes you feel, that's on you.

As for an EP feeling like the innocent victim and it being too hard to take accountability well this can apply to EAC too. I agree User that ^it's very telling when the possibility (that the EP isn't responsible) is dismissed or downplayed^; something we see time and time again here on GN, and your post @12.28 is an example of this.

For 27 years our relationship with our now ES was good. It isn't wishful thinking, it's a fact and unless you know those involved personally, you cannot possibly claim that a huge amount of evidence is being ignored.

It is terrible Oreo, really terrible. Fortunately for us, neither of our only GC were old enough to blank us; being blanked by our son, their father, was bad enough.

It does I agree seem to be a current fashion to say parents are horrible, toxic and narcissists so should be estranged, and this is being encouraged by SM.

We were fortunate to have supportive friends when we were estranged Sara and like you know we can always depend on them.

Now I must return the compliment. Your post comes from a very logical, 3 dimensional way of thinking! It's so true what you say. It's like when people tell you "look in the mirror", half the time they themselves have not done the same.

Portrait

My mother is a true narcissist. It was pure hell growing up. I was hell bent on raising my children without abuse and in a safe and loving home. I thought we did everything right. But my daughter has her own perceptions. There was and is a need in my child that we have not been able to meet.

So the best we can do IMHO is practice radical acceptance. Accept who they are in the here and now. Hope for a more, genuine and loving connection. But don't expect that will happen. And don't dwell on bad feelings for what they have done, even though many times it is unfair. Because that won't change things and it's a heavy emotional burden to carry. Some days those feelings can overwhelm me and I tell myself "I'm going to allow myself to think about this for 10 minutes, and after that I am going push it out of my mind and do something productive". After years of practice it now works.

Ok, are you saying that you made it a point to raise your kids without abuse, without narcissim on your part, but you are estranged/or close to it???

Oh my, if so, during that time, did you feel confident your kids would never resent you, would be able to come talk to you as adults, never estrange from you? Would be close to you?

I ask because one time my daughter was accusing me of guilt tripping her (I was not and asking sincere questions) and she said she was going to never do to them what I do to her (which was never really explained). She was very confident her kids would never criticise her, either, ever and claimed they will come to her because of the way she plans on raising them, so differently than me.

Is it really true what they say about "the best laid plans?"

Smileless2012

A good OP Eugenia. You have touched on what many EP's have experienced and are correct that estrangement can happen to the best of parents, something which is at times forgotten.

What a tragic waste eddiecat , distraught at the funeral of a parent you estranged when it's too late for either of you to make amends.

The OP isn't one of blanket, generalised reasons BlessedArt which is why it resonated with me and I'm sure will resonate with other EP's too. Eugenia has touched on what many of us have experienced because there are a lot of similarities in the experiences of EP's.

There will always be faults on both sides because no one's perfect Iam but as you say, who measures 'the fault'. A 'fault' which for some is the reason to make the decision to estrange, for another could never justify such a decision.

Why, thank you Smileless2012! I appreciate your comment.

I know I came to this forum awhile back because of my own problems, but checking back in here and there, I really have to say what I read is just so awful and shocking.

I have cried at some stories I read here and gotten so angry at others. Angry because of the pain parents here are being put through over petty things.....so many things in life are petty and I don't know why people choose to judge and complain over petty things. Sure, you can be a bit frustrated at what another person does. That can go both ways too.

Pettiness seems to drive a lot of this. People forget what's really important in life, good family, friends ,food, health and love.

My mother is a true narcissist. It was pure hell growing up. I was hell bent on raising my children without abuse and in a safe and loving home. I thought we did everything right. But my daughter has her own perceptions. There was and is a need in my child that we have not been able to meet.

So the best we can do IMHO is practice radical acceptance. Accept who they are in the here and now. Hope for a more, genuine and loving connection. But don't expect that will happen. And don't dwell on bad feelings for what they have done, even though many times it is unfair. Because that won't change things and it's a heavy emotional burden to carry. Some days those feelings can overwhelm me and I tell myself "I'm going to allow myself to think about this for 10 minutes, and after that I am going push it out of my mind and do something productive". After years of practice it now works.

spottybook

An elderly aunt of DH once told me that parents love their children more than the children love them. In some cases this is probably true.

This is absolutely true. I suppose it’s how nature intended it to be so that offspring are able to carry on after parents are gone. However knowing it is true is sad. I think my AC are fond of me and will always be a big part of my life but I’m not sure they actually feel love for me.

Ignoring the perspective of those who've estranged or those who have been estranged isn't helpful when discussing estrangement. As you say User If you aren't willing to listen because you don't like how that makes you feel, that's on you.

As for an EP feeling like the innocent victim and it being too hard to take accountability well this can apply to EAC too. I agree User that ^it's very telling when the possibility (that the EP isn't responsible) is dismissed or downplayed^; something we see time and time again here on GN, and your post @12.28 is an example of this.

For 27 years our relationship with our now ES was good. It isn't wishful thinking, it's a fact and unless you know those involved personally, you cannot possibly claim that a huge amount of evidence is being ignored.

It is terrible Oreo, really terrible. Fortunately for us, neither of our only GC were old enough to blank us; being blanked by our son, their father, was bad enough.

It does I agree seem to be a current fashion to say parents are horrible, toxic and narcissists so should be estranged, and this is being encouraged by SM.

We were fortunate to have supportive friends when we were estranged Sara and like you know we can always depend on them.