Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

I have absolutely no trouble trusting my own judgement Stoppableforce, it's sometimes the judgement of others that I struggle with.

I report if I feel it's necessary Luminance.

Namaste

Smileless2012

You can't miss them Luminance unless you want too of course.

It's troubling when such a comment comes after my own. Perhaps just report anything suspicious and move on with your day in peace.

Smileless2012

Yes, it's what I genuinely believe Luminance because as we can see from this thread alone, there are responses that are indeed insulting and malicious.

I don't believe that they come from people who are to be trusted or should be listened too. As for being told the truth, all any of us can offer are our opinions and the best way to show empathy is to believe what we are told and not to twist or misrepresent what is being said here.

I'm ingenuinely sorry to hear that you have so much trouble trusting your own judgement, that you (almost) solely rely on emotions; whether the message made you feel happy or if it made you feel sad

Truth is truth no matter how harshly expressed.

You can't miss them Luminance unless you want too of course.

Who are you talking about specifically Smileless2012?

You seem absolutely hell-bent on villianizing your daughter. As if you view life so simply that you think it has a clear bad and good guy (and if your daughter is the bad guy in this story, than you are the ...)

You appear to lack the maturity to successfully navigate the complexities of life. Just because she makes mistakes doesn't absolve you of yours.

You still have a lot of growing up to do, but probably don't have enough time to do it.

May you and your daughter find peace, one way or another.

Yes, it's what I genuinely believe Luminance because as we can see from this thread alone, there are responses that are indeed insulting and malicious.

I don't believe that they come from people who are to be trusted or should be listened too. As for being told the truth, all any of us can offer are our opinions and the best way to show empathy is to believe what we are told and not to twist or misrepresent what is being said here.

Smileless2012 Is that what you genuinely believe? Do you think perhaps that is what you perceive instead? The most genuine people will tell you clearly and concisely where they see an issue without insult not malice. Those people are perhaps to be trusted and listened too because it takes true empathy to tell you the truth and they would be trusted to catch you from a fall too when you are able to hear it.

It's very frustrating but often power for the cause here to be responded too about things we haven't actually said Eugenia, and I'm not convinced it's done in innocence but rather to goad a reaction.

It makes very little difference in my opinion. The word was said and meant.

Continue defending the indefensible by focusing on meaningless semantics. We are talking about your mindset, your attitude, your view towards your daughter. So, keep up!

There are mothers who can handle the same frustrations with infinitely more grace, empathy, wisdom, and maturity.

Self-absorbed parenting style isn't actually real. It seems like a facetous joke pointing out that your style of parenting isn't parenting at all.

Luminance

It's never acceptable to use such language to our own family members, it is an insult, insults are designed to wound. It is I am afraid rather a clear sign of emotional immaturity. There are constructive ways to word things that contain a clear and concise reason for frustration or hurt.

ONCE Again..I didn't not use this language to my daughter. I used it to describe what she has become since her husband left her, on this forum only. It is actually a mild assessment compared to her cruelty, but I am not sure how to find a stronger word. Please try and keep up.

It's never acceptable to use such language to our own family members, it is an insult, insults are designed to wound. It is I am afraid rather a clear sign of emotional immaturity. There are constructive ways to word things that contain a clear and concise reason for frustration or hurt.

BlessedArt

GoPhish

You call your own child a bitch while believing her claim that you're a "bad grandma" holds no water...Interesting.

Your daughter may have issues, but your manic, self-absorbed "parenting" style is the last thing she needs.

I think it’s safe to say we see why the daughter has issues.

Nah, you have no idea what you are actually talking about. I am the one experiencing this betrayal. Nobody gets treated like I have been over what someone else did and comes out with no bitterness, pain, anger and resentment. Normal responses for such treatment. Her issues are her own, caused by other influences, other traumas outside of her immediate family.

But I think the tendency to reject and blame someone, whoever is closest, is pretty common. When that goes to far, you sever relationships and that's what she's done to her own mother. It's a pretty cruel thing to do actually. That's on her.

GoPhish

You call your own child a bitch while believing her claim that you're a "bad grandma" holds no water...Interesting.

Your daughter may have issues, but your manic, self-absorbed "parenting" style is the last thing she needs.

I don't call her a bitch, sherlock. I describe her as one, and she is. Or at least has become one. Was not before her husband left her. I always blamed him, too, still do, but now I'm not sure how she was treating him.

Self absorbed parenting style?? Haha did you just come up with that or copy it from some article you read. Go back to school . What I have become, is bitter. Being the best mom you can, going the extra miles and then as soon as someone influences or hurts your kid, then you are the bad guy and get to be the one who is blamed, take out all the pain on you because the person who actually caused the pain (her husband) has moved on and does not care.

You are sick and trying so hard to virtue signal right now, supporting an abusive AC isn't a good look..

Allsorts

I think this whole post is a wind up. To say your own daughter is something that rhymes with witch and yet expect to see grandchildren, She would never be near mine with such toxicity, the grandchildren would be affected by it.
My daughter estranged me for her own reasons, that are valid to her. The pain was enormous what everyone estranged knows. I do think to estrange without reason is cowardly and heartbreaking , but sometimes the ones that do it are not thinking straight, they just want out as my d must have.

I really hope you are ok. Reading this was heartbreaking. I can't imagine what you must be going through. I hope you have good support.

So does being a clinician with a diverse and extensive background dealing with paediatrics and emergency medicine give you in depth knowledge about coercive control BlessedArt?

My knowledge goes way beyond googling and assumptions. I have a BscHons degree in Sociology so am able to research what interests me in an analytical way.

You either haven't read about my situation as much as you claim, or you're misrepresenting what you have read to suit your own agenda but it's not the first time I've experienced this on GN and as I have already told you, whether or not you believe what I say is of no interest to me, so I'm afraid you've wasted your time.

GoPhish

You call your own child a bitch while believing her claim that you're a "bad grandma" holds no water...Interesting.

Your daughter may have issues, but your manic, self-absorbed "parenting" style is the last thing she needs.

I think it’s safe to say we see why the daughter has issues.

Eugenia,

That you would refer to your daughter with such vile language solidifies why she doesn’t need you so close to her in her life. I hope she does find distance. Why would anyone want a mother who would speak of them this way? What makes you think this is healthy or mature? Your age doesn’t absolve you of such nastiness. If you are this toxic here I can only imagine what you are like in person. Please create a life of your own and work on yourself. At this point I do not think you are a safe, healthy person for your grandchildren.

Smileless2012

As I've suggested BlessedArt look into coercive control.

When someone's in a coercively controlling relationship, they lose their agency. They are worked on until they're isolated from those close to them who may alert them to what's happening. Coercive control is a form of abuse and all abusers seek to isolate their victim from anyone who may have any influence.

Nothing we ever did or said was an issue which is why he was never able to say anything was, and by claiming you are merely pointing out a basic truth that people don't fall out because they agree with each other is once again rejecting what I'm saying.

He was aware of her jealousy; it was something that we had talked about.

I get it, you don't believe me so there's no need to keep saying so. It's tiresome and whether you do or not is of no interest to me.

I was friends with her mother. Her father died a few years ago. We're no longer in contact which is perfectly understandable as they were from time to time estranged which is why when they married, we were the only ones at the wedding.

A few years ago while visiting his mother at her care home,
Mr. S. literally bumped into her when he was leaving and she was arriving to visit a friend.

She asked him how we both were and if he would give her a hug which being the lovely man he is, he did. Her request for a hug said far more than words could ever say.

Smileless, I am a clinician with a diverse and extensive background dealing with paediatrics and emergency medicine. My experience dealing with victims of abuse goes far beyond googling and assumptions, so thank you for your direction but I am not sure merely wanting to believe a thing makes it true. I can understand why you feel the way you do, as the devastation caused by parent-child estrangement is something so deep and painful it hurts me to even imagine. But based on what I’ve read in your posts here and there I haven’t read anything that solidifies your son is an abuse victim. I see a mom who didn’t get on with a daughter in law, who spoke frequently to her son separately about issues his wife likely didn’t share your views on, who was also deeply involved in some financial aspect of their life. I read about a daughter in law who had very different plans for her baby i.e childcare, and I read that you weren’t pleased about things like them hiring someone to mind the child. I see snapshots of what seems to be a very tragic and avoidable estrangement for sure. But based on your posts, I don’t see a lack of blame on either side. I am sure there is more to the story than what is shared here, but the reality is that in any conflict this is true when there is only one side told. I am not going to demonize your daughter in law or view your son as a victim of a form of abuse (coercive control) because nothing you’ve posted is enough to confirm those things. Your posts show an imperfect family like the rest of ours. I don’t see abuse confirmed based on your comments. I think 12 of not knowing them as a couple and a family puts you out of the circle of contacts to confirm your son is an abuse victim.

As far as your daughter in law’s parents, I am sure they regret the fall out. All of it seems just heartbreakingly tragic and avoidable. Like a family rift that went way too far. However, nothing you’ve posted gives the impression DIL’s parents view the situation the exact way you—that their daughter is an abuser and is solely to blame for your estrangement. As a mother I am very sorry for things to have gotten to this point in your family, regardless of it all. Nothing is worth the pain you’ve felt, and I am sure your son and DIL likely feel the same. At least I hope they do. We get one mum. Your DIL is now an experienced mum herself, so I hope she has grown as a person.

It's awful the way some parents use their children in these situations.

Children who never know their GP's; children who are suddenly stopped from seeing the GP's they know and love and children who see their GP's but are told they're 'bad people'. How confusing must that be, mum and dad are letting you spend time with people they're telling you are bad!!!

You're handling this with your GC in the right way Eugenia by being willing to talk to your GS about this if he mentions it, in a way he can understand and without criticising his mother to him.

You call your own child a bitch while believing her claim that you're a "bad grandma" holds no water...Interesting.

Your daughter may have issues, but your manic, self-absorbed "parenting" style is the last thing she needs.

Allsorts

I think this whole post is a wind up. To say your own daughter is something that rhymes with witch and yet expect to see grandchildren, She would never be near mine with such toxicity, the grandchildren would be affected by it.
My daughter estranged me for her own reasons, that are valid to her. The pain was enormous what everyone estranged knows. I do think to estrange without reason is cowardly and heartbreaking , but sometimes the ones that do it are not thinking straight, they just want out as my d must have.

Since when if the truth toxicity? Truth is truth. Just like others on here who were thrown out for minor issues, their truth stands. They have sons and daughters, daughter in laws that are the textbook definition of TOXIC. Like poor Smileless2012, her son has to estrange to keep his marriage.! That is SICK people!!

My daughter is the toxic one. And to top it all off, she is, I think, somehow jealous of my grandson's favor for me.

Many times "toxic" people will try to use language to turn a child from someone, yes?

My grandson has literally told me she has called me a bad grandma, a bad mom and I had to explain to him that's her opinion, and people have lots of differnt opinins, which is not necessarily always the truth. Kids that age will believe their parents, so I defended myself by explaining the truth. I said nothing bad about her, but the truth is, she's a bad daughter!

She's a controlling, toxic heartless heap of a person since her husband dumped here. I look at her and I do not recognise her, where did that sweet girl I used to know, only a scant few years ago, suddenly dissappear to??

So, isn't a person who projects their own feeliings onto a child considered TOXIC? She has literally done that to me.

I do expect to see my grandkids, as they say, parents should not make their kids give up family they love over squabbles or changed situations, but they do and it's child abuse, elder abuse and the laws are just now starting to see this. I hope someday they take it further and protect grandkids and their grandparents. It took a long time to give fathers more rights, this will be the next step.

I'm not above taking her to court, win or lose if there was total estrangment someday. Not leaving her any money anyway and she can spend hers on it.

I can say with all confidence, my daughter has no valiad reason. The more I complied with her pettiness, the less value it has and more things were just invented off the top of her head. She has jealousy issues and rather than aim that at her husband's new girlfriend, or even him, she's too chicken to do it. She can't control him, even when it comes to the kids, and she knows it. But she will do it the only person she can control.

Now I am seeing her try to control my grandson lately!

Last visit, my granddaughter, who I played with first for almost an hour, had left me to explore some toy baskets. So my grandson was asking me to finally play with him and his toys. Literally in less than 10 minutes, my daughter is in the kitchen crocheting and yelling that we are to include my granddaughter. We did, but she clearly did not want to, got frustrated being interuppted by us asking her. So she proceeded to wreck what my grandson set up, in protest.

This upset him and because of that, immmediately my daughter made him have a time out for nothing! I suspect it was to keep him from playing with me on my only visit that week.

For a full 25 minutes he had to stare at the wall without one sound or she threatened more time. I heard her say something to him (I was in the living room with my granddaughter) and then he yelled "so I can't play with Gma at all today?? "

He was SO upset. She acted like she did not care.

Then when the prolonged time out was over, she ordered him to include my granddaughter yet again, who was busy with some things.

So, he asked her to play and the girl literally said NO THANKYOU.

My daughter either didn't hear it or ignored it. All that frustration over literally nothing.

She is a control freak and I am so tired of it. Now, she messaged me and said her son is testing her limits, so she didn't want me to visit this week, that she had to "parent him" that day, so they would just come on the weekend.

OMG, she's doing it to her son too. Her behavior is textbook toxic to me and to her children, even they are starting to speak up at their very young ages.

So if you actually think I am the problem, you need a new brain lady.

I have had it. I'm done in my life with idiotic critisisms and I will subtly, calmly and non confrontationally fight, only because I want to see my grandkids. It will be more pronounced when they are of age because then I will not care if my daughter is in my life. I will not need her to see the kids nor will I ask permission. That is, unless she succeeds in turning them too. Guess then, evil wins.

Just like they advise the poor little AC's to leave their so called toxic parents, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I had such love for her, but enough already. Anyone who claims unconditional love means putting up with abuse, and expecting no love back, and still come back for more, is in hard denial.

Honor thy mother and father. Well, that's out the door these days.

I think this whole post is a wind up. To say your own daughter is something that rhymes with witch and yet expect to see grandchildren, She would never be near mine with such toxicity, the grandchildren would be affected by it.
My daughter estranged me for her own reasons, that are valid to her. The pain was enormous what everyone estranged knows. I do think to estrange without reason is cowardly and heartbreaking , but sometimes the ones that do it are not thinking straight, they just want out as my d must have.