Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

Sara1954

I agree with Norah, I think if we have done our jobs correctly, our daughters should be more than capable of making the right decisions when raising their children.
I think I might have been a bad parent, but my husband’s kind and calm parenting style rubbed off on me, to be honest, even watching his parents, I saw a totally different style of parenting Than I was used to.
Fifty years on he’s still a complete soft touch not only to all the children, but also the grandchildren.

There is something frequently missed by society in your observations about your husband. His influence isn't by chance I don't think.

I have seen that it is men, not women, who have a bigger hand sometimes in how kids turn out, whether or not they respect their mom, or parents in general. It makes sense....men are usuallly the stoic ones, the leaders, they are looked up to. Kids will mess with mom, but dad??? Not usually, unless they had an alpha mom. I had one of those and despite that, I still turned out more like my dad.

He was also a very soft approach man. My husband is not in the least soft and both my kids tend to be like him. I think if I told them that, they would be in complete denial and be offended. But I am so differnt than the 3 of them, I can not only see it sometimes I feel I can literally taste it. Smell it in the air. It's uncanny.

In my case, I still took after my dad , the soft one and in my kids case, with a verbally abusive man (mainly to me, not them) they still act more like him personality. All three of them are intellectuals. I'm just a homemaker/mom. Certainly they must at times see me of no real value. Well, except my son has expressed a lot of gratitude towards me that I've gotten none from my daughter and only chosen gratitude from my husband, either to make him look better to me or to get me in a good mood because he can do the most amazing 180.....

Anyway, men seem to just have a very big effect on their kids. The good men to their wives tend to sire kids who are the same with their mom. I've literally compared and seen it in many couples I know, family members. There is a pattern.

Smileless2012

No you didn't Luminance.

There are forums and closed groups for EAC YEEEESH which I think you might find more constructive in enabling you to move on with your life, rather than projecting your anger and bitterness onto the EP's who post here.

Isn't one of the joys of being a GP being a complete soft touch Sara and I bet you are too .

You tell 'em Smiles!!!

Norah

I agree with M0nica. People should pull back from attempting to parent, not give any advice or opinions. Let their sons and daughters be functioning adults, not forcing their own expectations upon them.

M0nica I think in this age of mobile phones, email, whatsapp etc, one of the biggest problems is that many parents, especially mothers never really seperate themselves from their children when they grow up.

I have talked on other threads about the physical umbilical cord that is detached at birth and the emotional umbilical cord that is severed in adulthood, usually when a AC enters marriage or a long term relationship.

In the past if conflict arose between parent and child, the child could just move away, only ring or write once every so often. There were plenty of estrangeents or near estrangements in the past.

^For most parents the advice is cut the emotional umbilical cord, leave your children alone, aim at quality in your contact not quantity. Do not try to be part of their adult life, you should both have separate lives, still less offer help or advice unbidden.^

I also agree. I care very much but from now on I am backing off. That is a shame because my daughter is already having issue with her son's behavior at 8. I can literally see and sometimes share his frustration the way she dominates/controls him.

I would, in my heart, talk to her or alert her what I am seeing that I think she has no clue of. But I will not do it.

See, outsiders can sometimes notice what parents do not, whether it is misbehavior issues or just the situation. Mothers love clouds. We feel like our kid is different than others..... is honest, aka we have a trusting and truthful relationship, etc.

My daughter has literally said how honest her son is with her, yet anytime he has let it slip to me something he has done against the rules, the first thing he says is.... don't tell mom! Not don't tell dad, or don't tell anyone. Don't tell mom.

Of course, I tell her. But she thinks I am interferring, so be it. Someday she might look back and wish I had.

I'm hoping not, I want my grandson to have no issues in life.

I am sorry I wasted my time reading two adults throwing profanities at each other. It was a bit entertaining and shocking at first but then nothing was resolved, no one was helped and I felt like this was a Trump match with no happy ending.

I wish for peace for all of you. But mainly for the little ones who are learning reactive behavior from their parents and grandparents.

Everyone grows at different rates. Please keep growing !

That doesn't make any sense Luminance.

Smileless2012

It's in my post @ 14.03 Luminance.

I have addressed your comment where it is relevant to what I have said Smileless2012. Is there anything else I can help with at all?

It's in my post @ 14.03 Luminance.

*What would you like to know Smileless2012? I am unsure.

Smileless, yes of course, and they all know it

No you didn't Luminance.

There are forums and closed groups for EAC YEEEESH which I think you might find more constructive in enabling you to move on with your life, rather than projecting your anger and bitterness onto the EP's who post here.

Isn't one of the joys of being a GP being a complete soft touch Sara and I bet you are too .

Here's a really interesting blog that heavily pertains to the subject matter at hand.

www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/not-all-estranged-parents-are-abusive.html

This is an excerpt from it

"Non-dysfunctional people don't stay in that environment. They get out, they find forums that address their children's problems and recognize child abusers' justifications when they see them. What's left behind are the people too broken to recognize abuse, too hungry for validation to speak up when they see their friends being abusive, too abusive to pass in a forum of healthy people.

Not all estranged parents are abusive.

Not all estranged parents are abusive.

Not all estranged parents are abusive.

But if they're a member of a estranged parents' forum, they're not one of those parents."

I agree with Norah, I think if we have done our jobs correctly, our daughters should be more than capable of making the right decisions when raising their children.
I think I might have been a bad parent, but my husband’s kind and calm parenting style rubbed off on me, to be honest, even watching his parents, I saw a totally different style of parenting Than I was used to.
Fifty years on he’s still a complete soft touch not only to all the children, but also the grandchildren.

I answered your questions that were relevant to what I said Smileless2012.

I agree with M0nica. People should pull back from attempting to parent, not give any advice or opinions. Let their sons and daughters be functioning adults, not forcing their own expectations upon them.

M0nica I think in this age of mobile phones, email, whatsapp etc, one of the biggest problems is that many parents, especially mothers never really seperate themselves from their children when they grow up.

I have talked on other threads about the physical umbilical cord that is detached at birth and the emotional umbilical cord that is severed in adulthood, usually when a AC enters marriage or a long term relationship.

In the past if conflict arose between parent and child, the child could just move away, only ring or write once every so often. There were plenty of estrangeents or near estrangements in the past.

For most parents the advice is cut the emotional umbilical cord, leave your children alone, aim at quality in your contact not quantity. Do not try to be part of their adult life, you should both have separate lives, still less offer help or advice unbidden.

Thank you Luminance your unwillingness to answer my questions is an example of the clues would be in how they treat others here, whether they are able to apologise and be accountable and in their answers to questioning.

You are obviously not prepared to be accountable for your post @ 14.03.

Smileless2012 This is an open forum where potentially anyone can join so it will always be fair to say that indeed anyone could post here and that that type of person would. I think the clues would be in how they treat others here, whether they are able to apologise and be accountable and in their answers to questioning. I think you will find that a very across the board answer to your question. I only mentioned one example in response to another assertion.

I don't think you would Luminance but if that is the case, why not answer my questions? What signs should we be looking for, and would you suggest that EAC on an EAC support forum would only be there to perpetuate a lie that their parents were abusive, as an excuse to estrange them, and garner as much attention as possible along the way?

Smileless2012 if I were saying that, I would have said that.

I agree that this is all becoming nasty.
I would say though, that parents who have been estranged may indeed have been better parents to some of their children, I think in my case it was two people who didn’t like each other, and who had not a single thing in common.
My mother appears to be much loved by my nieces and nephews, and one of my own children.
She always told anyone who would listen, I was the difficult one, and perhaps there is some truth there.

Are you accusing EP's who come on these threads for support of being abusive Luminance? Are you saying that EP's on the estrangement forum are keeping the lie such as "I was not a bad parent" going to appear innocent?

Would you care to enlighten us on what signs we should look for?

If this was a forum only for EAC, would you suggest that they are only here to perpetuate their lie that their parents were abusive so that's why they estranged them, and to garner ^as much attention as possible along the way?

Yes it is a shame JaneJudge as you say, those that have direct experience of estrangement have been through enough. I really don't understand the mentality of those who seem to post to 'twist the knife' into those already hurting.

There are also people who have been at the hands of abuse who have that voice inside their heads telling them how awful they were and are. After time passes it’s not there so much but in times of worry or insecurity it raises its ugly head telling you, you are just not good enough

It’s a shame people have to be so personal/nasty on these threads towards posters too. I expect lots of people have been through enough

I would just like to point out that abusive people do very often seek support in different places and groups. In order to keep a lie such as "I was not a bad parent" going it is necessary to live inside it and pursue all avenues to appearing innocent, often garnering as much attention as possible along the way. Usually there are signs should you know what to look for.

As I've suggested BlessedArt look into coercive control.

When someone's in a coercively controlling relationship, they lose their agency. They are worked on until they're isolated from those close to them who may alert them to what's happening. Coercive control is a form of abuse and all abusers seek to isolate their victim from anyone who may have any influence.

Nothing we ever did or said was an issue which is why he was never able to say anything was, and by claiming you are merely pointing out a basic truth that people don't fall out because they agree with each other is once again rejecting what I'm saying.

He was aware of her jealousy; it was something that we had talked about.

I get it, you don't believe me so there's no need to keep saying so. It's tiresome and whether you do or not is of no interest to me.

I was friends with her mother. Her father died a few years ago. We're no longer in contact which is perfectly understandable as they were from time to time estranged which is why when they married, we were the only ones at the wedding.

A few years ago while visiting his mother at her care home,
Mr. S. literally bumped into her when he was leaving and she was arriving to visit a friend.

She asked him how we both were and if he would give her a hug which being the lovely man he is, he did. Her request for a hug said far more than words could ever say.

Eugenia,

I truly hope you value the relationship enough to understand and respect your daughter’s boundaries and role as their mother. Love is amazing but it cannot exist without respect. Many grandparents who seem to want to bypass relationships with the parents fall into the trap of undermining. For the sake of your grandchildren I hope you find enough peace within yourself to avoid the pitfall.

Smileless2012

Exactly SporeB. Their first child was a baby, he told his brother that he'd told her he'd given up everything for her; presumably he was referring to his parents and his extended family.

Relationships break down for many reasons BlessedArt including coercive control, something that perhaps you should familiarise yourself with before implying that those of us who believe that's the reason for our estrangements are lying.

I wish he had said that, at least it would have been honest. Hurtful yes, but better than a curt note pushed through the letter box on Christmas together with the book we'd bought for our GS's first Christmas, telling us we were no longer a part of his and our GS's lives and were to stay away.

There's never been a relationship where both parties are 100% in agreement in all views on every aspect of the relationship^; what a ridiculous argument!!! Disagreements, agreeing to disagree and compromises are essential to any healthy relationship, that's what we had and it's of no interest to me whether you ^reject that or not.

You consistently reject whatever I say about our experience, it's your modus operandi, something that over the years I and other EP's have become accustomed too when posting in GN.

False memories have been discussed here before Eugenia, and of course not accepted as a reality by those who insist that if you're an EP it must be your fault, and if you say you had a close and loving relationship prior to being estrangement, well that can't possibly be true.

Our ES's wife came from a very dysfunctional family environment. I knew her mother well before they even met so was aware of the dynamic and details of some of what went on.

Following our estrangement, stories filtered through about what had supposedly occurred during our ES's childhood but these were things that his wife had experienced.

As you say, it's not just the parents who suffer. Estrangement is terrible for other siblings and heartbreaking for the GGP's who are also cut out of their GC's and GGC's lives as was the case for my mum and m.i.l.

My m.i.l. had plenty of GC, not that that compensated for the two she wasn't allowed to see but for my mum, they were the only two she had and just as we were never able to experience being GP's, she was never able to experience being a GGC.

It must be stressful Eugenia, constantly monitoring your behaviour because you have that constant fear that you'll be estranged again .

I agree Macadia and a relationship based only on what you think you are owed, or what you believe you owe aren't healthy in fact they're a non starter.

It’s not my M.O to reject everything you say, Smileless. I am merely pointing out a basic truth: People don’t fall out because they agree with each other. The way your posts read, your son had no agency or true issue with anything you did and said. You quoted something he said and I don’t see how you can interpret the words you posted as him relaying that he didn’t think anything you did or said was an issue, and that it was only his wife who was problematic.

I am curious, I think you’ve said before that you were friends with DIL’s parents. Are you still friends with them? What was their take on the fall out? Do they agree with you and your son that he is being coercively controlled and that their daughter is the sole responsible party for the family seperating? Where do they stand?