Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

Exactly SporeB. Their first child was a baby, he told his brother that he'd told her he'd given up everything for her; presumably he was referring to his parents and his extended family.

Relationships break down for many reasons BlessedArt including coercive control, something that perhaps you should familiarise yourself with before implying that those of us who believe that's the reason for our estrangements are lying.

I wish he had said that, at least it would have been honest. Hurtful yes, but better than a curt note pushed through the letter box on Christmas together with the book we'd bought for our GS's first Christmas, telling us we were no longer a part of his and our GS's lives and were to stay away.

There's never been a relationship where both parties are 100% in agreement in all views on every aspect of the relationship^; what a ridiculous argument!!! Disagreements, agreeing to disagree and compromises are essential to any healthy relationship, that's what we had and it's of no interest to me whether you ^reject that or not.

You consistently reject whatever I say about our experience, it's your modus operandi, something that over the years I and other EP's have become accustomed too when posting in GN.

False memories have been discussed here before Eugenia, and of course not accepted as a reality by those who insist that if you're an EP it must be your fault, and if you say you had a close and loving relationship prior to being estrangement, well that can't possibly be true.

Our ES's wife came from a very dysfunctional family environment. I knew her mother well before they even met so was aware of the dynamic and details of some of what went on.

Following our estrangement, stories filtered through about what had supposedly occurred during our ES's childhood but these were things that his wife had experienced.

As you say, it's not just the parents who suffer. Estrangement is terrible for other siblings and heartbreaking for the GGP's who are also cut out of their GC's and GGC's lives as was the case for my mum and m.i.l.

My m.i.l. had plenty of GC, not that that compensated for the two she wasn't allowed to see but for my mum, they were the only two she had and just as we were never able to experience being GP's, she was never able to experience being a GGC.

It must be stressful Eugenia, constantly monitoring your behaviour because you have that constant fear that you'll be estranged again .

I agree Macadia and a relationship based only on what you think you are owed, or what you believe you owe aren't healthy in fact they're a non starter.

YEEEESH

In your other thread, you talk about your grandson as if he were a forelorn lover.

Now you talk about your daughter like one would expect at a gossipy high school lunch table.

With your level of maturity, I think it was a mistake for you to create any life.

Hey troll. You would feel the same way if someone you loved like no other just turned on you because her life didn't go the way she wanted. I stuck by her and all I got was critisizm and abuse. Yes, abuse.

She physically pushed me out her door once after I dared cry when she said something cruel to me after I offered to be an ear for her during her crisis. She hit me once when I said something she didn't like. She's been emotionally abusive, trying to convince my grandson, who was a very loving little guy to his gma, that I was a bad mom and even one time said I was a bad grandma behind my back.

No doubt she did it out of pure jealously!!! Why??? My grandkids, both of them, show my more love to me then she could even care to, that's why they are more important now. She should have been furious jealous of the woman who took her husband but no, turned that furry towards me instead.

Some people......expect that they can take someone they love and metaphorically shoot them in the face, then expect them to love forever with not one bit of wavier. That would not be love, motherly or otherwise..... it would be masochistic and I'm not into that.

Enough is enough. Sick of the narcissitic controlling AC's in the world inflicting pain on those who love them most.

I can either cry or get mad. I ususally do both. But anger helps more. So go blow your uninformed opinon out your second hole, you troll!!

In your other thread, you talk about your grandson as if he were a forelorn lover.

Now you talk about your daughter like one would expect at a gossipy high school lunch table.

With your level of maturity, I think it was a mistake for you to create any life.

Who needs enemies with a mother like you

Allsorts

Eugenie, you seem very critical of your daughter. You two need space for the foreseeable.

The way she has treated me, believe me, I agree but I want to see my grandkids. It's not their fault that their mom became something that rhymes with witch because of her rotten husband. Not my fault either.

Eugenie, you seem very critical of your daughter. You two need space for the foreseeable.

There are so.many types of estrangement.

1. SILENCE: The childish one is when one or two of two people do are not mature enough to communicate like grown adults.

2. DON'T-CARE: Another type us when a DD or DS says, "Will you stop doing this?" And you don't.

3. ESCAPE: Another type is when someone had a horrid upbringing and has to stop contact with the parent due to trauma.

Sometimes it is healthy to get away from certain family members and, yes, estrange them.

I dont believe that if someone gave birth to you (or otherwise) that you owe them even an ounce of your adulthood. Relationships are based on relationships, not family trees.

M0nica

Ah, but there is a false premise in your post SI. You are assuming the child is absolutely rational, reasonable and measured in their response to their parents - and that is the problem, we are not all carbon copies of each other and each child is made from a random collection of genes from two different people and the result can be a rational reasonable person, but it can be someone, who is perfectly rational, no excuses about mental health, but who finds the personality of one of their parents intensely irritating.

The other thing is that memories can be faulty. I have a close and loving relationship with my daughter, now in her 50s. But one evening about 10 years ago, we were chatting and she suddenly switched the subject, and calmly told me all the ways I had failed her as a teenager.

As I listened I doubted the accuracy of some of her memories, and knew that others rose from differences in our biological clocks! I discussed the conversatio privately with my DH and also DS, her brother, both of them came back on several memories, where tey had been present and there memories were the same as mine.

The other problem was that I am an extreme lark and DD is an extreme owl. She wanted to have deep meaningful conversations with me late at night when I could barely keep my eyes open and I had an early rise to get me to work.

Now. I am not estranged, never have been, but I can see how people's faulty memories and genetic make -up can lead to problems that are a long, long way from the calm observant child, judiciously weighing the odds, being judge and jury in their own case and deciding that the parent has been wanting. The parent may have been wanting, but there may have been good reasons.

Sorry sudo, I do think pseudo, is the right word for your reasoning.

Definately a false premise! Or also could be put as a huge assumption!

What you mention about false memories is so true. Sometimes too, false assumptions about those memories.

For example, my daughter is a bit heavy and always assumed blame on me for that aka I gave her too many treats.

I cooked healthy meals. Treats came if those health foods were eaten, this is common practice since the invention of desserts.

She's convinced that the fat she developed in childhood keeps her fat now. Funny how I've known fat kids that are not fat as adults though.

Here's the kicker and where false memories come in....

She claims she was a fat child. Truth is, she did not start to gain weight until about 5th grade when her friends introduced her to a place called the Sweet Factory, which sold things I'd never give my kids. I would give a chocolate, or ice cream dessert commonly.

Sweet Factory had large sugar crystal coatings on highly sugared chewy candies. Quite different than I would have thought to buy.

Of course, this was around the time we were told never mention weight or tell your kid they have to cut back on food.... fat shaming is a no no.

Still, she claims her whole childhood was a fat filled torture. And this is a false memory.

It is funny how a false memory, if repeated enough, will infect other people. To my surprise, my husband apparently had the same false memory, most likely hearing it from her all the time.

So one day, we were looking at old pictures of our kids childhood and my husband spoke with surprise, pointed to a picture of her and said to me "Hey, she wasn't fat!"

Yep, it's like some horrible infectious disease this constant focus on childhoods parents supposedly ruined, but in reality..........not so much.

SporeRB

BlessedArt

Smileless2012

Our ES was aware of his wife's jealousy BlessdArt so he did view the situation the same which is why when I tried to talk to him he said 'we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble'.

Even if he agreed there was a jealousy with his wife, he clearly didn’t agree that you were entirely blameless. That’s my point. Unless you are telling us he estranged you by saying “I agree with you 100% and you’ve done nothing I disagree with but I will choose to sever this relationship because it’s all my wife’s desire”, I just don’t believe that a mother and son who’ve been estranged for all these years are in total agreement on all aspects of the rift. Saying “we musn’t do this as it causes too much trouble” simply doesn’t translate into some telling you they believe you are entirely right about what is happening here.

Not necessary. Sometimes the estranged parents are lovely people but the daughter in law is the one with the issues.

If you ask a man to choose between his wife or his estranged parents, he is bound to choose his wife otherwise there will be hell to pay at home.

SporeRB Your comment is a wise one. Marriages come first for a variety of reasons. Spouses are supposed to be their future long after mom and dad are gone. Divorce isn't a pleasure cruise or the alternative living with a hostle partner constantly arguing is not going to be a happy union.

There are usually children to consider too....not good for them to be raised with constantly bickering parents or parents who split up, then continue bickering over the kids as well.

It is vital for marriages, especially with children, to stay intact, not just for the individuals but for society as a whole. Family values used to mean something but those are going the wayside with everyone splitting, marrying again, sometimes splitting again......its a mess.

So it makes sense for a son, or even a daughter to choose the spouse.

Good parents do not make them choose, however, sometimes the spouse wants to make them choose....for what reason, who knows, could be insecuity, narcisssc controlling tendencies, dislike for the family member or members, jealously, etc. Many reasons.

I was so ready to embrace my children's spouses and it helped that I actually liked them. I ended up with the opposite problem, they both liked me , but my son left his wife after less than a year, as she started being a bit abusive to him (she was older than him) and he said he'd rather get out early then end up divorced with children.

My daughter's husband, as I mentioned before in other posts, we got along great and things were so good until he met a younger girl, who's dad had just left her mom. So he's now with her, left my daughter flat despite baby number 2 on the way. And since then, the slow destruction of my daughters look on life. To which I have become victim to.

Not estranged, other than one six week period. Now I know how to act, what to do to counter her attacks, however, I still fear it that one day, I'll do something, anything, or, maybe nothing. Then it will be over. I just hang on for the grandkids, she has 2 children now, my grandson and granddaughter.

I have adjusted many things about myself to accomodate her.

My grandson has actually started to notice some things, unfair treatment with me, and has quietly protested but she is extremely controlling of him and she's got him fairly subdued, as she does I most of the time.

That may not be the case for long, as he is getting older and will see more and more of her behavior for what it is. Hopefully, so in case the worst ever happens, perhaps he and his sister will decide for themselves instead of her deciding for them.

You know what's worse than an AC estrangment is the fact many innocent grandkids, uncles, aunts, even the spouse, etc. get caught in that estrangment net!!! It's just not right. It has even been called a form of parental and child abuse. I think it should be treated as such by the law too and grandparents should have more rights than they do. Well, it may evolve one day.

sudointelectual

A novel aspect of this kind of forum is that you only will hear one side of the story. Usually that the parent made no grievous errors and everything was just peachy until a friend, therapist, or the crowd favorite; a despicable spouse.

But if you ever listen to the child's side, the cause for estrangement is usually a myraid of abuses. Ranging from simple neglect to brutal emotional/physical beatings (while the ones who were murdered or driven to suicide couldn't comment).

Obviously both sides can't be true as they are polar opposite realities. So one has to ask, which side has the most reason to lie.

I don't see much reason for a child to lie about their parent's behavior when they (normally) stand to gain so much from their support.

I see all the reason for parents to lie (when placed in an uncomfortable position) to make themselves appear/feel good.

Hmmmm. While it's possible what you say, most likely we are getting the truth here. I do not believe the mean, neglectful or brutal parents would even consider coming to a forum like this. In reality, those types of parents just do not care enough to bother! They do not need support and chances are, their lack of loving their child enough to treat them decently is why they may be ok or actually glad of the estrangement.

I personally have a friend who, from all I can see, did not do anything wrong /abusive with her daughter to be estranged, yet they were.

Now, I am positive she never would grace any such forum as this; her daughter told her to go to counseling and she refused.
She said this to me......... I am who I am and there is no changing it. I am hurt but I have a life, other family, including other children, it's my daughter's choice so be it and I will not change for her.

She wouldn't be caught dead in this forum.

So I imagine that goes double for other parents who were in the catagories you mentioned.

I agree some estranged parents can be lovely. I don’t agree that a perfectly healthy relationship where both parties are in 100% agreement in all views on every aspect of the relationship suddenly breaks down and disagreement simultaneously remains non-existent . Relationships break down because disagreement exists. The reasons and details behind the disagreement are subjective and very specific to the individuals involved, but generally people don’t fall out because they agree with each other. Previously loving parents and children don’t typically severe such a bond because they share the same perspective. That’s a very heavy, traumatizing step to take for people who are on the same page. You are trying to oversimplify by packaging the idea of family strife into a neat little sexist trope about men being mindless creatures ruled by pernicious females. I reject that.

BlessedArt

Smileless2012

Our ES was aware of his wife's jealousy BlessdArt so he did view the situation the same which is why when I tried to talk to him he said 'we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble'.

Even if he agreed there was a jealousy with his wife, he clearly didn’t agree that you were entirely blameless. That’s my point. Unless you are telling us he estranged you by saying “I agree with you 100% and you’ve done nothing I disagree with but I will choose to sever this relationship because it’s all my wife’s desire”, I just don’t believe that a mother and son who’ve been estranged for all these years are in total agreement on all aspects of the rift. Saying “we musn’t do this as it causes too much trouble” simply doesn’t translate into some telling you they believe you are entirely right about what is happening here.

Not necessary. Sometimes the estranged parents are lovely people but the daughter in law is the one with the issues.

If you ask a man to choose between his wife or his estranged parents, he is bound to choose his wife otherwise there will be hell to pay at home.

Fidelity2

Why do people refer to their children ?
They are your Son, or Daughter!
Perhaps that is the reason for some of the
conflict !Treat them as adults !

Though I am 100% guilty of this, it is factually correct that I have a son and daughters, but no children. They are adults. Maybe you are onto something. Language certainly plays a part in influencing perception. I have misstepped many a time with my adult son and daughters because I viewed them as my children instead of seeing them as autonomous adults. I think the difference is in how one responds to the missteps. Doubling down, insisting on giving unsolicited advice or insisting on unwelcome involvement is the part I cannot understand to save my life.

Smileless2012

Our ES was aware of his wife's jealousy BlessdArt so he did view the situation the same which is why when I tried to talk to him he said 'we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble'.

Even if he agreed there was a jealousy with his wife, he clearly didn’t agree that you were entirely blameless. That’s my point. Unless you are telling us he estranged you by saying “I agree with you 100% and you’ve done nothing I disagree with but I will choose to sever this relationship because it’s all my wife’s desire”, I just don’t believe that a mother and son who’ve been estranged for all these years are in total agreement on all aspects of the rift. Saying “we musn’t do this as it causes too much trouble” simply doesn’t translate into some telling you they believe you are entirely right about what is happening here.

They don't stop being your children once they become adults Fidelity so referring to them as such isn't not treating them as adults.

Why do people refer to their children ?
They are your Son, or Daughter!
Perhaps that is the reason for some of the
conflict !Treat them as adults !

Our ES was aware of his wife's jealousy BlessdArt so he did view the situation the same which is why when I tried to talk to him he said 'we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble'.

Good post M0nica.

Thank you Eugenia. My husband was very close to his parents and our boys adored their GP's so I would never have tried to interfere in their relationship.

My not wanting and not having contact with them was my decision, it was the right one for me at that time but was no reason for them to stop contact too.

@stillawip: My sister is working herself into a true estrangement as we speak because she cannot fathom that her son is actively choosing not to allow her interference in his marriage and child rearing with his wife. One thing she has said nearly verbatim is that their relationship was perfectly fine before the influence of his wife. Maybe in her eyes it was, but objectively speaking her level of involvement in the personal affairs of her adult son was not going to smoothly translate over once he became a married father. She views her unsolicited advice as help, but truly it was quite undermining because she and his wife simply had very different ideas about how to raise babies. Your story resonates with me due to my wanting and hoping for your level of self-reflection for my sister so that my family may begin to heal. I just wanted to say that reading your posts gives me hope for her. She’s not a terrible person. She is stubborn and a little self-centered. I appreciate reading that all is not lost in these situations. Thank you sharing your experience

Smileless2012

I've already said it was our ES's wife who had an issue with our relationship stillawipp and it wasn't us voicing opinions, it was jealousy pure and simple.

But your son chose to estrange. I think that is indicative that you and he do not view the situation the same.

Smileless2012

That's so funny BlessedArt, posting about rewriting history when you've not only rewritten what someone's posted on this thread, but attributed it to the wrong poster!!!

On page one MercuryQueen posted I can think of several instances ....., that's several instances where AC were disowned, not that AC were regularly disowned.

Yes it happened, yes it was horrific but I've never seen any evidence that it was normal.

Every single point I made stands.
I have zero interest in engaging you some silly semantic filled back and forth nitpicking erroneous details.

I would think, should a child's memory differ from our own, that perhaps it still needs to be acknowledged that the way they remembered it has hurt them in some fashion. I believe that lots of things colour memory and perception and the way they feel at the time would have an impact. That is not to say that a parent has directly caused mental discomfort to the point that the child saw a situation differently or felt it differently, just that it is a possibility. You could say that even should memory differ completely, having understanding for the feelings that arose would be rather prudent. The human body is such a complicated system that hormonal imbalance or mental health issues easily impact how any situation is perceived. Were it myself I would perhaps say that my memories of the day were different but I completely acknowledge that the child went through something that day and I wish I could have seen their discomfort and helped in some way.

Smileless2012

Some people do want estrangement Sara. Sometimes it's the AC's partner who doesn't want a relationship with their partner's parents and doesn't want them to have one either.

Although in the end I did have a lovely relationship with my m.i.l., it was extremely difficult for many years, so much so that I didn't see my in laws for about 7 years but Mr. S. saw them twice a week, and the boys continued their relationship with their GP's through out that time.

Of course, that doesn't apply to you but as we all know, not all estrangements happen for the same reasons and it's not only the cold, unloving and uncaring parents who become estranged.

I agree Eugenia that it does appear to be encouraged. I don't go on mums net but others have said how it's often the 'go too' solution when there are problems with parents or in laws. There are numerous examples on Reddit, another site I don't go on but there have been examples from there posted on here over the years which have been quite disturbing.

There does seem to be a need for quick fixes fancythat. In a society where so much is disposable, relationships seem to be disposable too. Rather than for example, go to the trouble and expense of repairing a household appliance (something I am guilty of ) it's easier and more convenient to chuck it out and get a new one, and it does seem to be that way with relationships.

We do see posts from parents who feel they're no longer of any use to their AC and feel forgotten Primrose. It's very sad and we're so pleased that neither of our parents ever felt that way.

I don't agree that anyone is arguing against those that have reconciled stillawipp your situation was clearly different to ours. You say you chose your son over your perceived right to behave a certain way but it wasn't our behaviour that was the issue, it was as I've already said her jealousy.

It seems a bit daft to me to judge another's estrangement based on your own experience. You seem to be unwilling or unable to accept that although by your own admission, your son estranged you because of how you'd behaved, that that isn't the case for every EP.

Our opinions are more often than not based on our experiences and someone's experience should not be discounted because it's not the same as your own. The sense of disbelief that EP's on GN often come across is unfair and unpleasant.

I've said before how lovely it is that you've reconciled stillawipp and if I remember correctly, you're looking forward to holiday with your son and his family but in order for your reconciliation to have taken place, your son must have wanted you in his life.

Our ES made it perfectly clear that he didn't and although we never thought we'd ever feel this way, we have sadly over the years realised that this is better for us too.

And much credit to you Smileless2012 for not trying to estranged your husband and children from his mother despite your feelings about her at the time! That says alot about your character in so much that I am convinced your ES has no justification. You do selfless things and do not take what isn't yours. I am sorry to say he is a _____, well he is, and it am positive you did not raise him that way. Fault sonetine lays with other bad influences in a kids life, not with the parents, at all.

Ah, but there is a false premise in your post SI. You are assuming the child is absolutely rational, reasonable and measured in their response to their parents - and that is the problem, we are not all carbon copies of each other and each child is made from a random collection of genes from two different people and the result can be a rational reasonable person, but it can be someone, who is perfectly rational, no excuses about mental health, but who finds the personality of one of their parents intensely irritating.

The other thing is that memories can be faulty. I have a close and loving relationship with my daughter, now in her 50s. But one evening about 10 years ago, we were chatting and she suddenly switched the subject, and calmly told me all the ways I had failed her as a teenager.

As I listened I doubted the accuracy of some of her memories, and knew that others rose from differences in our biological clocks! I discussed the conversatio privately with my DH and also DS, her brother, both of them came back on several memories, where tey had been present and there memories were the same as mine.

The other problem was that I am an extreme lark and DD is an extreme owl. She wanted to have deep meaningful conversations with me late at night when I could barely keep my eyes open and I had an early rise to get me to work.

Now. I am not estranged, never have been, but I can see how people's faulty memories and genetic make -up can lead to problems that are a long, long way from the calm observant child, judiciously weighing the odds, being judge and jury in their own case and deciding that the parent has been wanting. The parent may have been wanting, but there may have been good reasons.

Sorry sudo, I do think pseudo, is the right word for your reasoning.

Interesting choice of user name sudointelectual, did you intend it as a play on pseudo intellectual?

I find the contrast in posts from EP's from some EAC rather telling. You're estranged from your parents and unlike the responses to an EAC from EP's you'll see here on GN, yours is unnecessarily unpleasant and IMO cruel.

that you were so detrimental to your own flesh & blood, the decided being an orphan was better hat staying in contact with you and you claim to have a successful career centered around critical thinking really!!!