Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

Rereading my post, I can already hear one of the rebuttals. That mental illness and/or drugs can make a child lie about their parents.

And I just want to say I find it hard to believe there's an epidemic of good enough parents being disowned because of drugs and schizophrenia.

Especially when I've faced the exact same slander from my estranged parents (when I have successful career centered around critical thinking nonetheless).

I guess it's easier to tell others that your child won't see you because they are just crazy; Instead of the reality, that you were so detrimental to your own flesh & blood, they decided being an orphan was better than staying in contact with you.

A novel aspect of this kind of forum is that you only will hear one side of the story. Usually that the parent made no grievous errors and everything was just peachy until a friend, therapist, or the crowd favorite; a despicable spouse.

But if you ever listen to the child's side, the cause for estrangement is usually a myraid of abuses. Ranging from simple neglect to brutal emotional/physical beatings (while the ones who were murdered or driven to suicide couldn't comment).

Obviously both sides can't be true as they are polar opposite realities. So one has to ask, which side has the most reason to lie.

I don't see much reason for a child to lie about their parent's behavior when they (normally) stand to gain so much from their support.

I see all the reason for parents to lie (when placed in an uncomfortable position) to make themselves appear/feel good.

No one is perfect Luminance.

I am very sure none of us are perfect and there is always something to think about or work on. It can be very difficult to face up to as I understand.

In some cases that will be the issue M0nica but I wouldn't say that parents, especially mothers being unable to separate themselves from their AC is one of the biggest problems.

There are so many reasons why estrangement occurs; the reason I spoke to our ES every day on the 'phone was because he called me.

I wonder how much of a contributory factor this constant reference to not offer help or advice unless asked for is too estrangement. Are some AC really so precious that they're unable to see help or advice for what it usually is, rather than being a criticism or judgemental?

^Here's a thought....omg....perhaps they are right, they are not to blame^; now there's a thought Eugenia.

I think you are right M0nica, I think part of my mother’s problem was that she saw her own mother every day of her life unless one of them was on holiday.
They were extremely close and my mother once told me, she always felt happy when she saw her mother coming down the road.
Maybe she assumed she would have a daughter like that, big disappointment.

i think in this age of mobile phones, email, whatsapp etc, one of the biggest problems is that many parents, especially mothers never really seperate themselves from their children when they grow up.

I have talked on other threads about the physical umbilical cord that is detached at birth and the emotional umbilical cord that is severed in adulthood, usually when a AC enters marriage or a long term relationship.

When I went to university, my parents would at best get a letter every week or so, giving them an (edited) version of my life. I was able to grow up, make mistakes, do all kinds of things that would shock my parents and earn their deep disaproval - if they had known about them, all without my mother on the phone, whatsapping me, sending emails etc - and she had to learn to get on with her life with me not there.

In the past if conflict arose between parent and child, the child could just move away, only ring or write once every so often. I had a friend where she and her husband chose a house that was not easy for her mother to get to without a car. She still saw her mother regularly, she was an only child and her father died when she was a child, but her mother wasn't in contact every day or calling in all the time. She could cope with her in small doses.

It seems to me too many mothers are not cutting the emotional umbilical cord. They need to stand back, say nothing, get a busy life, so that their children while still deeply loved, are not the centre of their lives, except in emergencies.

There were plenty of estrangeents or near estrangements in the past. They were just well hidden. two of my father's brothers were virtually estranged, but no one outside the family would have known. One was in the army, married young and used his army postings abroad and to remote parts of Britain as an excuse for rarely seeing or contacting his parents.

For most parents the advice is cut the emotional umbilical cord, leave your children alone, aim at quality in your contact not quantity. Do not try to be part of their adult life, you should both have separate lives, still less offer help or advice unbidden.

Allsorts, I see where you are coming from, but if you know in your heart that there will never be any going back, I can’t see how any good could come out of a conversation.
It would just be more recriminations and denials.

There are so many reasons for estrangement, you have to look at yourself and see how did I contribute to it, can I alter anything, most of us that are estranged just have to get on with it in the end, some take years to see the truth as the truth is so awful. Reconcilliation does happen but it takes both sides, lots like mine are long standing but eventually you reach acceptance and you make a new life. I am sure it must be hard for the one thst initiates estrangement and is warranted in many instances but tell the people concerned why and that its permanent, you owe them that. I realise now why my d did it.

stillawipp

I’m really, really not trying to offend anyone here, but I am struggling to understand people who are still estranged arguing that they are still 100% not to blame and are still absolutely entitled to behave the way they did & still do, against people who have successfully reconciled. That seems a bit daft to me! But hey-ho, everyone’s opinions are different. I just chose my son over my perceived right to behave a certain way, that’s the crux of it 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don't think that's really it. Things are not always in a nutshell like that. We don't get the whole picture sometimes.

Here's a thought.....omg......perhaps, they are right, they are not to blame. Mind boogliing, isn't it?

Perhaps the AC was too demanding, no imperfection in was unturned, molehills became mountains and then decided they were going to change the very nature of the parent....my way or the highway. And then when that parent tries to comply, still not enough. New demands or one slip and it's see ya chump.

Ever notice lots of the estrangments come after a new person or situation arises? Suddenly the good parent who they were always close to cannot do anything right.

Standing up for oneself, sure, that happens too, there are mean, judgemental, uncaring parents out there.

But how is it that an AC cannot be capable of being a mean, judgemental and uncaring person? Is there some universal power that puts them beyond mere mortals?

Naw.....I don't buy it. I do not believe even half of the people on this board are the ones who's behaviors caused the estrangement.

If truth be told, maybe a very small percentage at best.

fancythat

I think Uk society as a whole
wants a quick fix
Is more selfish
Doesnt want to know or speak to their neighbour, let alone love thy neighbour

I think all of the above helps to feed into the idea that estrangement is not such a bad idea. Sadly.

That is a bit of the truth right there!

So sad, luminance

I don't think, underneath it all that is what either of them want. That is the shameful thing, my sister's pride getting in the way. I have tried and failed to get through to her. I can't ask me niece to simply put up with it all for my sake. Yes of course both of them have to live with it all but I see the heartbreak here and don't see my sister ever really moving on. I so wish she could see the situation through my eyes and what has gone wrong.

It's a shame that your sister can't see that disrespecting her D and her choices have resulted in estrangement Luminance, leaving your niece with the only option of estranging for her own sake.

I hope that having done so her life will be more peaceful and that her and your sister will be able to move forward, living their lives that sadly don't include one another.

Yup, I agree too

Luminance, I agree with you

The crux of the matter for me is that our children are different people to us. Our values and expectations are not their own. We can talk until the cows come home about how things were in our day or what everyone did then. They do things rather differently. I don't think it is a phase or a fad or a trend. I believe it to be adults standing up for themselves, their needs and their values. We either respect that or they stop respecting us. Being rather open to new ways of doing things and getting on board with changed gets us more respect, more closeness and more time with our families. My sister will keep asserting that she has done nothing wrong but her daughter is just too tired to argue and since my sister is like a dog with a bone, my niece has said no more of that. It is hurting her deeply. She is devastated but she cannot continue and unless my sister starts respecting her daughter and her choices I fear it will not change a bit.

And 'good for you' for acknowledging your part in yours stillawipp.

Smileless2012 I am not “unwilling or unable to accept anything”, but thank you for your opinion. And of course I wasn’t entirely to blame, that would be hugely unusual - I am just willing to accept my part in it. If you believe that you had no part in your estrangement then good for you.
Yes, thank you, you remember correctly about our approaching family holiday - we are all very excited.

Thankyou Smileless

Don't regret not having done it sooner Sara or that you tried for so long because you did try, I'm just sorry that your mum couldn't see how lucky she was .

Smileless, I know, I have said that there is sometimes pressure from a third party, but apart from that, I can only see things from my own perspective, I have never been on mumsnet or any other site, so although I would be very surprised to find that some people actually want to estrange for little or no reason, that maybe the case.
I know I should have done it twenty years before, I put up with so much from her, but it didn’t really occur to me that I had a choice but to keep trying.
I can assure anyone, that I tried very hard, as I’m sure most people do before taking that final step.

Some people do want estrangement Sara. Sometimes it's the AC's partner who doesn't want a relationship with their partner's parents and doesn't want them to have one either.

Although in the end I did have a lovely relationship with my m.i.l., it was extremely difficult for many years, so much so that I didn't see my in laws for about 7 years but Mr. S. saw them twice a week, and the boys continued their relationship with their GP's through out that time.

Of course, that doesn't apply to you but as we all know, not all estrangements happen for the same reasons and it's not only the cold, unloving and uncaring parents who become estranged.

I agree Eugenia that it does appear to be encouraged. I don't go on mums net but others have said how it's often the 'go too' solution when there are problems with parents or in laws. There are numerous examples on Reddit, another site I don't go on but there have been examples from there posted on here over the years which have been quite disturbing.

There does seem to be a need for quick fixes fancythat. In a society where so much is disposable, relationships seem to be disposable too. Rather than for example, go to the trouble and expense of repairing a household appliance (something I am guilty of ) it's easier and more convenient to chuck it out and get a new one, and it does seem to be that way with relationships.

We do see posts from parents who feel they're no longer of any use to their AC and feel forgotten Primrose. It's very sad and we're so pleased that neither of our parents ever felt that way.

I don't agree that anyone is arguing against those that have reconciled stillawipp your situation was clearly different to ours. You say you chose your son over your perceived right to behave a certain way but it wasn't our behaviour that was the issue, it was as I've already said her jealousy.

It seems a bit daft to me to judge another's estrangement based on your own experience. You seem to be unwilling or unable to accept that although by your own admission, your son estranged you because of how you'd behaved, that that isn't the case for every EP.

Our opinions are more often than not based on our experiences and someone's experience should not be discounted because it's not the same as your own. The sense of disbelief that EP's on GN often come across is unfair and unpleasant.

I've said before how lovely it is that you've reconciled stillawipp and if I remember correctly, you're looking forward to holiday with your son and his family but in order for your reconciliation to have taken place, your son must have wanted you in his life.

Our ES made it perfectly clear that he didn't and although we never thought we'd ever feel this way, we have sadly over the years realised that this is better for us too.

Oh yes, there are many different reasons for estrangement - everyone’s situation is different 👍🏼

Stillawhip, I agree to a point, but I think it’s often about personalities, I don’t like my mother, I would say she is cold, unkind, spiteful, I could go on.
She would say I’m mouthy, that’s she’s frequently been ashamed of me, that I’ve always made bad choices (her idea of bad choices) that im uncaring
Truth is, we just don’t like each other.