Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

Some “children” take everything they can from their parents - childminding, money, lifts, deposits for houses, cars, holidays etc when it suits them, then as their children grow and they move on to the next stage of making friends with similar young families the parents are dropped like stones. They have no further use for them.

One of my nieces is some sort of minister in a new kind of church which now takes up a lot of her time and she seems to forget that whilst her congregation think she’s great and so caring, she does have a parent at home who she seldom visits or even texts.

I’m really, really not trying to offend anyone here, but I am struggling to understand people who are still estranged arguing that they are still 100% not to blame and are still absolutely entitled to behave the way they did & still do, against people who have successfully reconciled. That seems a bit daft to me! But hey-ho, everyone’s opinions are different. I just chose my son over my perceived right to behave a certain way, that’s the crux of it 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think Uk society as a whole
wants a quick fix
Is more selfish
Doesnt want to know or speak to their neighbour, let alone love thy neighbour

I think all of the above helps to feed into the idea that estrangement is not such a bad idea. Sadly.

Sara1954

Eugenia, I think you are wrong, I don’t think anyone wants estrangement, it only comes as a last resort, and when it does come to that no turning back moment, it can be hugely liberating.
As for being fashionable, again I disagree, I don’t talk about it much in ‘real life’ because it’s not something that is really approved of, I also find it irritating when it’s referred to as a ‘trend’ I’m certain no one estranges anyone without a really good reason, although I accept that sometimes there is third party involvement driving it, but that still doesn’t make it a trend.

I think society and new psychology encourge it, so maybe that is a better way of putting it rather than wanting it. It's encourged and people talk about it like it's a normal thing to do, thus could be considered popular. I know this does not apply to everyone, so I do understand if you are not someone who took estrangement lightly. I am talking in a general sense, where there are sometimes people who do take it lightly or do it out of convieniece as to not be bothered.

Smileless2012

My mum was horrified that I wasn't potty training our eldest Eugenia. There's 20 months between our sons and she kept saying that I'd have two in nappies when our youngest was born but I knew he wasn't ready.

When I thought the time was right, he was dry within a few days and having two in terry nappies for a time wasn't as onerous as mum thought it would be.

My gran couldn't believe how soon they weren't just having a bottle but as we've said, it came from love and there are no relationships where everyone agrees all the time.

Probably knowing that she'd resent any advice, our ES would 'phone me when she wasn't there and during one conversation about how unsettled our GS was, I suggested offering a bottle when he'd finished breast feeding in case he needed topping up.

They did and he was more settled but I've no idea if he told her where the suggestion came from because it was never mentioned.

Oh, yeah, a lot of mums just want to be involved in the feeding/potty stuff. When mine were little I didn't have a huge concern, usually just went by what the pediatrician would recommend and that was usually good enough for my parents and MIL.

Actually, your advice to your ES has merit. My daughter was concerned at my grandson's weight after he was born and realized she wasn't producing enough milk. The doctor said to give a bottle after to supplement. After awhile, her milk came in better and they didn't need it anymore, but it was important at that age to get enough milk and nutrition, no matter how.

Eugenia, I think you are wrong, I don’t think anyone wants estrangement, it only comes as a last resort, and when it does come to that no turning back moment, it can be hugely liberating.
As for being fashionable, again I disagree, I don’t talk about it much in ‘real life’ because it’s not something that is really approved of, I also find it irritating when it’s referred to as a ‘trend’ I’m certain no one estranges anyone without a really good reason, although I accept that sometimes there is third party involvement driving it, but that still doesn’t make it a trend.

Smileless2012

It's a recurring themeSkydancer and fancythat.

IMO that's the problem, why should offering advice be seen as
barging in?. I feel sorry for GP's who constantly feel the need to tread very carefully. That for me isn't a sign of a healthy relationship anymore than it would be if an AC felt they had to do the same.

Some of my mum's and GM's opinions and advice were outdated, but not all of them; they did manage to successfully manage to raise two children of their own.

Advice doesn't have to be followed if disagreed with, even if it was asked for but I don't understand why a GP, mother or m.i.l. should be demonised for giving it.

It is definately as you say, a good relationship is a two way street. So when one has to travel on the one way road, it's not balanced or even remotely fair, really.

And you bring up a good point....we were successful. I mean how could we be such terrible parents and our kids turn out to be self sustaining, smart individuals? Did they do that all by themselves? While I will agree, peers and other outside sources shape them a bit, we had a big part in it, didn't we?

Now, for those AC's who will say, no.........well then, why all the protesting about how bad we raised you? Didn't seem to matter anyway, so why all the guilt tripping?

And logically, if kids can make it all on their own without good parents, then their parenting won't make a difference either, despite them thinking they are better parents.

I often wonder where my kids would be today if I had done things differently.

I'm not talking about only being the stay home mom in their childhood so they had that security of me always there; what about when they decided to go to college....charged no rent, didn't have to work at all, fed, clothed and I would drive both of them, at different times, back and forth to college.

I didn't have to so that, I raised them already and they were grown....., at that point getting even a regular old job would have afforded me many things I didn't have at the time, but I didn't go to work again so they would have reliable transportation other than having to ride a bus which where we live, is extremely time consuming with so many stops. Mass transit where I live is awful and almost everyone has a car because of that, those who can afford to anyway...

If they had to rely on the buses or get jobs to cloth/feed themselves as grown adults usually do, not sure if they would have been able to put the time in for study and end up with their high grades upon graduating college with Masters Degrees, magna cum laude, both . My daughter in Mathmatics and my son in Computer Programming.

I did that for both. And to credit my husband, he, although a bit begrudgly, did allow and support the situation.

And both knew, they would always have a home anytime they needed. My daughter didn't move out until she got a good job teaching, and only because her soon to be husband was on the verge of homelessness. So they moved in together. She was almost 30.

She's never really expressed any appreciation.

My son on the other hand, as expressed it to me, one time so much that he made me cry. He was getting his Masters Degree and just simply thanked me for all the support.

At least one noticed.

My mum was horrified that I wasn't potty training our eldest Eugenia. There's 20 months between our sons and she kept saying that I'd have two in nappies when our youngest was born but I knew he wasn't ready.

When I thought the time was right, he was dry within a few days and having two in terry nappies for a time wasn't as onerous as mum thought it would be.

My gran couldn't believe how soon they weren't just having a bottle but as we've said, it came from love and there are no relationships where everyone agrees all the time.

Probably knowing that she'd resent any advice, our ES would 'phone me when she wasn't there and during one conversation about how unsettled our GS was, I suggested offering a bottle when he'd finished breast feeding in case he needed topping up.

They did and he was more settled but I've no idea if he told her where the suggestion came from because it was never mentioned.

NotSpaghetti

Eugenia I think £40 to £80 ish is usual here- though I'm sure it can be more in some areas of the country or
specialist types of counselling...
Some charities offer it cheaper.

If you are in America I'm definitely less surprised though!

Yeah, it's insane here in America. It's a just a huge money racket too, psychologists make alot and omg psychiatrists don't make much less than surgeons! It's nuts (pun intended).

The psychiatrists constantly push drugs too, so much money in that it's unbelievable. People get rich and half of it is based on near quackery, telling people they have a chemical imbalance which is a theory, never proven and has literally no real tests in a physical sense.
They tell people they have a chemical imbalance in the brain with no physical test. That would be like telling a person they are diabetic without a blood test.

And the drugs they use are nothing to mess with. Can cause some long term health issues.

At least with therapy, no drugs. Just an ear to talk to and get some advice. Some therapists might get too judgemental of the people being talked about....that's why family therapy would be better than individual but sometimes most family thinks they are no problem and it's all one person causing the issues, even when it's the other members fighting with each other! The scapegoat. The one in the middle, the weaker or softer of the family, easy prey. Man, that's a tough thing, but happens a lot more than people realize.

Skydancer

I agree that advice does not seem to be welcomed by adult children about grandchildren these days. It is so hard not to say something though when you know you are right. I'm not saying grandparents are always right but we have experience to offer and it's sad when it is rejected. I also find it sad to hear younger people talking disrespectfully about their parents. It seems to be a Western thing. My friend who comes from China said that old people are respected there and I know it is the same in India. My friend said that when she goes back to her own country she is highly respected by her nieces and nephews.

Yeah, I just wonder what's up with that? How did some countries just avoid what has come about in the west?

Sara1954

Eugenia, nothing happened, and it’s not sad, I’m happier than I ever was when she was part of my life, not everything can be fixed, not everyone wants things fixed.

Well, it feels a little sad to me. But I'm glad you are not. I know, sometimes its too broken to fix. But my issue is it seems lately society is normalizing broken, even making it fashionable. I'm not saying that's your situation, but as a whole society seems to embrace, almost want estrangements....

Allsorts

There's a big difference in giving loving advice and interfering. I have asked for advice on things I was a bit unsure of, had unsolicited advice from both mother and mil occasionally, but it came from a good place and I welcomed it.

I feel you. Yes, loving advice can go into interfering territory. A couple of times my mom would almost get to that point, like say it more with the you had better do that kinda tone rather than this is what I used to do tone.

But it was something I would simply say you know, I am not sure I should, but I will think about it some more. Lots of times I didn't go with what I was told I should do, other times it ended up seeming like it was a good idea.

But I never had an attitude about it because in the end, we the parents have the authority and power anywary. Our parents couldn't actually decide, we are gonna do what we want with our kids. no matter....

Maybe this generation just doesn't have the Zen we did. With all the stress and hassles of life young people have these days, perhaps there is no chance of that anymore?

Now I am wondering if estrangement, near estrangement or just not getting along with famlly is a symptom of a larger issue with our stressed out, hectic, high speed society.

Who knows?

Smileless2012

No Sara, not intending to be at your mother's funeral doesn't make you a bad person; to go would I agree, be hypocritical. You made your decision and your posts on GN show that it was the right one for you.

not everything can be fixed, not everyone wants things fixed I totally agree with this and understand how this can apply to EP's as well as EAC.

Our relationship with our ES can't be fixed and isn't something I would want to try to achieve now. We will never have the peace and happiness we had when we were a part of his life, but the peace and happiness we've achieved has been hard won and not something we could risk losing all over again.

Judgement isn't always what it seems, sometimes it can be a huge, even if incorrect effort to fix/help the person's problem this is so true Eugenia because what can often be misconstrued as a judgement isn't judgement at all, it's what used to be called advice.

Reading some of the responses here on GN, it's as if 'advice' has become a dirty word!!! Don't offer advice and/or an opinion on anything to do with your GC because they're not your children. 'Keep it zipped'; 'say nothing'; 'keep your opinions to yourself' or risk being seen as overbearing at best, toxic at worst.

I received plenty of unsolicited advice from my mum and GM when our boys were babies. Yes at times it was extremely annoying and 'out dated' but it came from love; from their love for me and our boys.

I am sorry things are so lost for you Smileless2012. Oh my, but you are right.......it is advice that's been terribly mislabeled these days. I couldn't quite think of what I was trying to convey but you got it!

I always got advice from my mom too, and my MIL. Only a couple of times it was a little annoying and outdated too, but yes I also knew it came from love. I think the most annoying was something that I was advised but I already knew, like yeh ya ya I know I know haha.

Perhaps parents today do not realize the benefits....it is like anything else today, we need many sources of information and opinions to help us form our own ideas and our decisions we make. Information is important! And, different ideas of it as well!

And I think it's part of the love, like you said, that parents try to give to their kids.

Well, that part of love I can't give, knowing how my daughter feels about me in general. I can only offer help or support what she is doing. I never really say I support it when I think she goes too far (she gets over controlling with the kids sometimes) but I am always backing her up in general when the kids get on her case a bit. I wonder if she appreciates that, I really don't know, but when I think she is right, or the kids are being unreasonable, I do speak up and defend her.

There's a big difference in giving loving advice and interfering. I have asked for advice on things I was a bit unsure of, had unsolicited advice from both mother and mil occasionally, but it came from a good place and I welcomed it.

Yes, I know you have, Smileless

I've already said it was our ES's wife who had an issue with our relationship stillawipp and it wasn't us voicing opinions, it was jealousy pure and simple.

It may well be a far cry for you, Smileless2012, but maybe it wasn’t for your son or his wife? That’s my point really - it’s not for us parents to decide how much of our opinions they should have to take…

It's good when posters are able to talk about their own experiences stillawipp, and you've said that your anger and frustration when your son married was an issue which resulted in your estrangement.

I had an extremely close relationship with our ES prior to being estranged but accepting his wife was never an issue, quite the opposite in fact. I never expected our relationship to remain the same and TBF I don't think he did either. It was his wife who was unable to accept the relationship he had with me and his father.

Giving regular unsolicited 'advice' is I agree foolish and maybe one of the reasons for being estranged but for me, that's a far cry from believing/thinking that you must keep your opinions to yourself and for advice to be seen as judgemental.

People estrange for all sorts of reasons, but it very often the mothers of AC who previously had a very close relationship with their AC who then find it very difficult, when a new partner comes along for that child, to accept that they have to move over a bit to allow space for that partner to come in, and that there is now someone else in their life who is just as important, if not more so. They want to maintain the same relationship with their AC, not realising that they now have to hand over some of that closeness to the new partner. It’s a control thing, and loosening the grip on control is the key. This was certainly the case with my own estrangement, how frustrated and angry I got with my son when my influence on his life wasn’t as much as before, and it was only when I finally woke up to this, apologised and totally changed my behaviour, that we reconciled.
I only offer advice now if asked - they are perfectly entitled to live and parent their way, not mine. Any parent who says that they gave regular unsolicited ‘advice’ but at the same time have no idea why they are estranged from their AC need look for the reason no further, I believe.

Page two of this thread, not page one.

That's so funny BlessedArt, posting about rewriting history when you've not only rewritten what someone's posted on this thread, but attributed it to the wrong poster!!!

On page one MercuryQueen posted I can think of several instances ....., that's several instances where AC were disowned, not that AC were regularly disowned.

Yes it happened, yes it was horrific but I've never seen any evidence that it was normal.

Smileless: That’s ridiculous to even argue. As Sara has clearly stated, children were regularly disowned for having babies out of wedlock, marrying different races, being gay etc. We’re not going to sit here and rewrite history through rose-tinged lenses. It happened. It was normal. It was horrific, but it was normal. The lack of internet and open discussion back then will not erase that fact. Shame didn’t allow for those discussions. Times have changed and younger generations don’t feel as much shame in discussing family issues.

Just because the internet exists now and people can communicate openly and anonymously and share experiences doesn’t mean it’s okay to dismiss individual choices as a trend. That’s insulting by itself. Societal shifts happen. Exercising one’s autonomy to choose a relationship is no more a trend than women being in the workplace demanding equal pay for equal work. It is but one of many societal shifts we can expect to not reverse course. Descriptive language and internet terms may be trendy, but the shift to choosing one’s own close relations is absolutely not. Reductive language such as words like “trends” isn’t going to magically make the younger generations reverse course on independence anymore than bashing feminism made women reverse course on insisting on equality. People will continue to choose relations that are not as detrimental to their mental health (i.e friends) over blood for the foreseeable future if those individual situations require it. That’s a societal shift.

I don't agree that as a society we found disowning children for a variety of reasons perfectly acceptable BlessedArt and I'm certainly not aware that there was ever a 'trend' for doing so with readily available 'advice' as to how to go about it on the contrary, it wasn't something openly discussed even between family members.

The trouble is Smiless, it’s a different relationship, maybe a lot of people have that with their parents, but I find it hard to imagine
My friend is everything, surrogate mother, kind auntie and very dear friend.
She criticised everything from the state of my car, to my spending habits, but I have never once taken offence, because I know she is very fond of me, and I would, and have been very supportive of her when she needed it.
I would love to have had a mother like her

Parent/child bond is something so natural and powerful, that's why I feel no other relationship can really replicate or exceed it

This isn't always the case though. It's normal for you, it's normal for me but it really isn't the case for lots of people unfortunately and some people are just cruel