Sharing something a friend told me

stillawipp

I think some are over-complicating this… the simple fact is, you can’t (and shouldn’t) control what others give to you in the form of words or actions from their world, but you can control whether or not you want to receive them in yours ! That is your choice and your right.

If you make it clear that you choose not to receive them and that if the behaviour continues then the relationship with you will fracture, then you have let them know your own limits, ie your boundaries. It is then up to the other party to decide whether or not to respect those limits or not, knowing that failure to do so may result in estrangement. That is their choice and their right.

I agree, to a point. Like others said, boundries can become a way to get your way, so to speak while not respecting the other person at all.

I think the concept of boundries is very good but can be used, like all good things, for bad. For control. For excuses to be selfish. For getting what you want when you want it no matter how it hurts or destroys another because they didn't do as you instructed.

As I said before, two people can both have boundries, which is good. But if one has an advantage, knowing the weakness of the other, boundries can become used as leverage, exploited for selfish purpose.

This is human nature. Things like boundries, that should be equal, can become unequal in nature.

Like two countries who say let's respect each other and live accordingly. But then one country builds a bigger army and then decides to say the other must respect them more, live a bit differently or be blown to bits.

bakestrategic

Unless advice is the only way someone can communicate or speak to another, requesting no unsolicited advice is hardly demanding silence. Surely there are other things to talk about than what the adult child may be doing wrong.

Not wanting unasked for advice from one or two people does not mean that person thinks they are perfect and don't need any input from anyone.

But see, it is. If you know you will somehow be punished for speaking, that is demanding silence.

And it is also very telling you put it as "other things to talk about what the adult child may be doing wrong"...

That is a common assumption! I get it, some young parents cannot take advice without feeling like they are being critisized. It's not critisizm, unless of course, the in law or whoever is telling them "hey you are really messing this up" or "how can you think that will work" type of wording that would sound like a put down.

But who does that, really? In the majority of cases, advice is not telling a parent they are doing wrong, but are actually suggestions. Alternatives. Something to ponder if the current plan fails.

It could even be called simply help. I want to help you. It doesn't mean you have to do as I say, or that my opinion is going to work for you, but this is what I have perhaps learned from and would like to share it with you.

My mother gave me lots of advice. I appreciated it. If I thought it might work, I'd do it. If not, I would politely say so, it's not going to work. Sometimes she would say ok, you may be sorry. Now, I wouldn't ever say that to my kids, but the thing is, she was right about a lot of things I didn't listen to.

Now I pay the price for not seeing at the time there was a developing issue. She saw it and I was stubborn.

Now I have a perfect child who is the perfect parent. In her own mind. Caring enough to try and help only led to resentment and not just partial estrangement, but I know she does not love me anymore, she has shown me. She is around still, out of either obligation or for the rest of the family.

So, now she has a parent who has decided to back off. I'm watching the train wreck and gonna let it happen. And I know it's not right, at all, but if I live long enough to see the train crash and burn, I suppose I've stopped caring so I will be able to handle it.

I know myself and normally I would be crushed if something bad happened to one of my children in their lives and relationships. I would not have been able to handle it, at all.

Now I actually think I can. Imagine that. I love my kid, but I think the devastation over every happiness detail of life has dissppeared. Yes, I used to worry over every detail of her lifes, relationships, health, happiness to a point of literal obsession. My own MIL once told me I was obsessed with my own children. Isn't that intense, unconditional love though?

Let it go, let it be, etc. is how I feel now about what happens to her.

It still feels sad, though. Very sad, but the anxiety of parenthood for me is gone.

I feel this isn't right. This isn't what is supposed to happen.

I think some are over-complicating this… the simple fact is, you can’t (and shouldn’t) control what others give to you in the form of words or actions from their world, but you can control whether or not you want to receive them in yours ! That is your choice and your right.

If you make it clear that you choose not to receive them and that if the behaviour continues then the relationship with you will fracture, then you have let them know your own limits, ie your boundaries. It is then up to the other party to decide whether or not to respect those limits or not, knowing that failure to do so may result in estrangement. That is their choice and their right.

CariadAgain

From all of which I think it's probably what I call "expecting good manners and consideration" - which is fair enough.

I tend to find that modern concept of "boundaries" as meaning "I'm just looking for an excuse to say your perfectly standard behaviour is a problem/you are a problem. Go on - give me that excuse". Rather than thinking "Well we're all human. So as long as someone has a roughly similar set of morals/expectations there's no big deal problem worth blowing them out for".

After all telling someone who admits they "used to" be a thief (in his own words) that I knew pretty recently "The boundary is you had better not turn out to still be a thief - or you will be past history on the spot" is totally unnecessary. I was gracious enough to assume he'd repented of his sins and was now a normal person instead of a thief - and so I said nothing - until it turned out he had lied and he is still a thief. At that point - no need for a "You crossed my boundaries" speech and I just cut him off instantly and totally and left him to figure out that thieves are not people in my opinion and so he's history now.

"I tend to find that modern concept of "boundaries" as meaning "I'm just looking for an excuse to say your perfectly standard behaviour is a problem/you are a problem. Go on - give me that excuse". Rather than thinking "Well we're all human. So as long as someone has a roughly similar set of morals/expectations there's no big deal problem worth blowing them out for"."

That it is, definately. Spot on!

There are people who have leverage over another and will use it. Whether it's the old mother who would die if her son never spoke to her or the grandmother who's ever demanding daughter will cut off time with the grandkids over the slightest upset, boundries sometimes can become one sided, unfair and downright cruel.

Boundries can be suddenly moved, too, as a way to make sure the other person must continue to fluster and stress trying to please or ultimately make a mistake and fail.

Then suppposedly it's the other person's fault when they can't live up to the expectations.

I feel the "concept" of boundries is sound. It does seem better to respect others wishes in certain matters. But as everything in life, things can be exploited and used against those in weaker positions.

Just like a big muscular bully, a wealthy corporation, an oppressive goverment, people or things that have advantage over others will usually and most likely use that advantage for their own purposes, whatever those purposes might be.

It's human nature that ruins sound and good concepts.

Unless advice is the only way someone can communicate or speak to another, requesting no unsolicited advice is hardly demanding silence. Surely there are other things to talk about than what the adult child may be doing wrong.

Not wanting unasked for advice from one or two people does not mean that person thinks they are perfect and don't need any input from anyone.

Lathyrus3

Yes, I’m only pondering it philosophically I suppose, not having anything personal embedded into my pondering. That’s why I’ve avoided talking about parents and children because peoples personal experiences do influence how they regard the whole “boundary” thing.

I think probably “If you keep offering advice I will end the conversation” is somewhere along the lines of “Trespassers will be prosecuted” to put it in another boundary context.
That is, your action will have this consequence.

In the end I still can’t help thinking that rigid boundaries of forbidding and conversely determined ignoring of another’s wishes are just the two flip sides of intolerance and a determination to have your own way. (Your is meant generally not personally )

Incidentally, although I’m partial to a pithy saying, I still don’t really get what Smarter was saying with her ‘nailed it” remark.

"In the end I still can’t help thinking that rigid boundaries of forbidding and conversely determined ignoring of another’s wishes are just the two flip sides of intolerance and a determination to have your own way. (Your is meant generally not personally )"

It is. You are right.

BeepBoop

And if anyone dares to argue that that example is still controlling (since it influences the behavior of the other party with a threat), what is the alternative?

The offended party is forced to listen to opinions they do not want to or care to hear until the offender dies? That would be infinitely more controlling.

I disagree. Keeping someone from speaking is quite controlling and also, quite a mistake. The boundry should be yes, you can give an opinion but I can either take it or leave it.

That's the real boundry we all have; we can listen to others, let them speak but our power lies in our actions, whether or not we do what they say.

To compell others to silence is control.

And in my opinion, someone who tries to control like that is a fool. Because we need input, all of us because we are not perfect and can make mistakes.

It can happen that out of all those misguided advices, one or two might actually help, or even make a big difference in one's life. So many people say "if only I knew", but if they were afraid to tell you, that's on you.

Allsorts

It seems you are troubled by partial estrangement. Think of the outcome you want and why, then act on it. Once estranged for many there is no going back.
In my case my d estranged almost everyone before me nd I should have acted, deep down I knew whatever I said would not alter her doing what she wanted. I was clinging on. She didn't want her life up to then to determine the future. She has a new one now. It's hard to face you are not loved anymore. she has one life and wanted to live it her way.

How easily love is tossed away. I am sorry for you. Partially estranged doesn't mean I have love. I know deep down it could be a few good reasons why it isn't total estrangment, but having love for me isn't one of them. Actions, words are very telling. So I feel your pain.

BeepBoop

And if anyone dares to argue that that example is still controlling (since it influences the behavior of the other party with a threat), what is the alternative?

The offended party is forced to listen to opinions they do not want to or care to hear until the offender dies? That would be infinitely more controlling.

Still ruminating.🙄

Actually I think if the boundary comes with a condition for the other person to meet, it is still seeking dominance in the relationship.

So “I wont listen to your advice” and then removing yourself is a boundary- a situation you will not tolerate for yourself and an action that you take for yourself. And that is good.

It is then up to the other person to decide what action they will take and they retain their autonomy.

But once you apply a condition that the other person must adhere to you are using the boundary as a controlling mechanism n order to make the other person behave as you wish.

Somehow a line has been crossed from “that is not for me” to “that is not for you”.

Like I say I’m still ruminating.

I should add, a proper boundary wouldn't be phrased as "You will not give me advice about my children." But rather something like, "If you give me advice about my children I will leave, or, ask you to leave my home, etc."

Lathyrus3

I’m still pondering this.

Take “no unsolicited advice” for instance.

When someone says “I don’t act on your unsolicited advice” then they are setting a boundary for their own actions, which is what we should all do, control ourselves.

But when they say “You must not offer advice” they are setting a boundary for the other person to adhere to - so they are attempting to control another persons actions.

It changes then from a boundary of your own - I don’t accept that advice- to a boundary that you enforce on someone else. You cannot give that advice.

If you have the right to forbid others actions that you do not like, do they have an equal right to forbid your actions that they do not like!

Or is it more about seeking dominance over another? Why is it not enough to refuse the advice ie control your own action?

I think “setting my boundaries” is a carelessly tossed phrase, that often actually doesn’t men much more than I want things the way I like🤔

You have amazingly put this in a What you have said is surprisingly perfect!!! Exactly what I was trying to say, but somehow I couldn't quite come up with a proper words. Thank you!

I think my phone has gone bonkers today and I am working late shifts and unable to sleep.

Shinamae

Sorry, it’s gone completely over my head 😵‍💫

Yes, and mine 🤯

Many posts here demonstrate willful ignorance and entitlement in my opinion. A few posters have said they don’t understand boundaries and/or insist they are unnecessary. The internet is a wonderful thing, I think any poster could spend 10-15 minutes googling the role of boundaries in relationships and do a little reading. In reference to estrangement and the role boundaries may play in the dynamic, it could be useful to those struggling with being estranged to have a basic understanding of boundaries since they often seem to be a point of contention.

The example of unsolicited advice to me demonstrates an entitlement to having one’s thoughts and feelings catered to at the expense of other’s comfort. Why so much fuss about unsolicited advice? Why indeed, is there so much fuss about keeping one’s thought to yourself when asked? Just because you (and by “you” I don’t mean any poster in particular, but those who think they are entitled to offer advice and opinions regardless of how the other feels about it) don’t see the harm or annoyance in hearing unasked for advice doesn’t mean it can’t be harmful or annoying.

I think some people, likely those lacking in emotional maturity, take other people’s boundaries personally, especially if those boundaries require they change their behavior in any way. They may feel that being asked to change their behavior means they are bad and are doing bad things, and thus following the boundary would be an admission of guilt. This seems especially often when an adult child gives boundaries to a parent who still expects obedience (though they may say “respect” or “love” when they mean obedience.) Giving advice isn’t bad or wrong in and of itself, it becomes wrong when the request to stop is ignored. No one has the right to say or do whatever they want to another person. “You will not give advice to me about my children” is not controlling. “You will not give advice ever” is controlling. The boundary isn’t about how the other person functions in their own life or with other people, but how they function in the relationship with the other person. Very simple to comprehend, frankly.

And what is all that about boy farts??
Has everyone gone bonkers on here today?

This has gone this has gone completely over my head! What on earth is it all about??

Yes it is Luminance.

Estrangement is the ultimate boundary is it not?

I totally agree with your second paragraph CariadAgain which is why I wonder how much of an affect this, which is IMO obsession with boundaries, plays a part in estrangement.

I suppose it is a rather good analogy. Ha.

Well, I really cannot get the hang of technology and it changes my words. Ha.

I think it should be rather clear that a person setting a boy fart with another has reached a point where if they do not set it, the relationship is in jeopardy. For many, that jeopardy is enough to stop and think "I am causing harm with this behaviour and I should stop doing it". For others, they have placed themselves as more important than respecting someone else's different needs.

From all of which I think it's probably what I call "expecting good manners and consideration" - which is fair enough.

I tend to find that modern concept of "boundaries" as meaning "I'm just looking for an excuse to say your perfectly standard behaviour is a problem/you are a problem. Go on - give me that excuse". Rather than thinking "Well we're all human. So as long as someone has a roughly similar set of morals/expectations there's no big deal problem worth blowing them out for".

After all telling someone who admits they "used to" be a thief (in his own words) that I knew pretty recently "The boundary is you had better not turn out to still be a thief - or you will be past history on the spot" is totally unnecessary. I was gracious enough to assume he'd repented of his sins and was now a normal person instead of a thief - and so I said nothing - until it turned out he had lied and he is still a thief. At that point - no need for a "You crossed my boundaries" speech and I just cut him off instantly and totally and left him to figure out that thieves are not people in my opinion and so he's history now.

It is true, boundaries are unconditional love, they are respecting each others differences. Violating others boundaries is what places a condition on love, that condition being "I will not stop doing the thing that hurts you or makes you uncomfortable and you must maintain this relationship".

I think "setting my boundaries" is a carelessly tossed phrase I agree Lathyrus.

Why so much fuss about advice, unsolicited or otherwise? If you don't want to take the advice then don't. To say that if advice is given in the future I will no longer contact you is IMO an extreme and ridiculous reaction but if the relationship means so little that you'll discard it so readily then maybe it's not worth it for all concerned.