New to forum

Cam I ask people on this thread please, or others, what is the etiquette on threads like this?
I can still feel like a bit of a newbie on here sometimes.

If an op has stopped writing, should others carry on anyway?

"however we need contact with each other, that doesn't mean control of them as you interpret it."

I don't know if you simply skimmed my posts or not, but no where did I say that sending unwanted contact/gifts/cards was a form of "control". I said it's a form of disrespect and selfishness where you prioritize your own needs over your child's.

"Pink peony misses her child and you have no empathy in you it seems."

Once again, I feel like you skimmed or just entirely skip entire posts of mine. No where was I critical of Pink. If she misses her child so much, than surely she would want as big of a chance at reconciliation as possible. Sending unwanted contact will only achieve the opposite of that. It may soothe you in the moment, but it's dysfunctional and only ensures the exact opposite of what you want).

"Some children do grow up like you"

This is false. Children like me don't get to grow up because they usually end up killing themselves from the daily barrage of non-stop severe abuse and trauma. I did come close, and despite my mother's (expressed) wishes, I'm still here; but I'm an exception, not the rule.

You accuse me of lacking empathy, but it seems to be a projection of yours because you clearly lack empathy to say imply such an obtuse notion that I simply "grew up" to estrange from my parents and that I have no "feelings".

Seesh.

Boobpeep, your posts are critical and extremely unkind and I can quite see why you would want to estrange. Fortunately many on here, including the poster have feelings, no one doubts that once you have raised your children they should fly the nest and make a life of their own, however we need contact with each other, that doesn't mean control of them as you interpret it. Pink peony misses her child and you have no empathy in you it seems. Some children do grow up like you and unfortunately for many of us it takes time to recognise. Took me years but I didn't bother her as you say, I let her go but the pain was awful. I haven't that same pain anymore. It takes time for the rose tinted spectacles to come off.
Your heart will mend round that hole Pink, who knows what the future might bring, concentrate on those you do have, they want you, lots haven't anyone, you have not closed doors, leave them open knowing she is free to return if she feels ready.

^
I seem to value individuality, while others seem to value familial obligations more.^

Ooh. I cant say I agree with that.
I would write more but conscious that PinkPeony1 started the thread.

If you wanted to discuss the quote further, I would be happy to discuss it with you, if you chose to start another thread yourself.

I believe the polarizing disconnect comes from opposite values that stem from generational divides.

I seem to value individuality, while others seem to value familial obligations more.

Both may seem valid on first glance, but I firmly believe that familial obligations had their time and place (when life was much harsher and family was critical for survival), but now that we can afford to, we should all be prioritizing individual freedoms over familial obligations (where you must stay with thy mother and father. No matter what, except for if they murder you; your only ticket to freedom from them).

I think it goes without saying, but my "abusive mother" thinks of estrangement exactly the same way. Coincidentally or not.

The correct way forward, as painful and uncomfortable it may be, would be to acknowledge that estrangement (more often than not) is a child's last resort after what has been a lifelong effort (for them) to have a functional relationship with their life givers.

"putting your wishes and feelings onto another, regardless of how it would be received can be said of those who decide to estrange."

This is an extremely EXTREMELY dangerous line of thinking!

As tempting as it is, don't fall down this path of least resistance. Please.

This is a key marker of emotional enmeshment, where a parent can’t see their child as a separate individual, and instead expects them to manage the parent’s emotions. It shows a clear lack of emotional maturity and healthy boundaries.

These are exactly the kind of dysfunctions I'm talking about that need to be called out, understood and culled (for lack of a better term).

To quote my previous response to Pink

"I know you're coming from a good place in your heart by sending them, but please understand that it's highly disrespectful since you're blatantly disregarding their wish for No Contact. Presents and such are contact, and the person would prefer to not receive them.

If I may make a suggestion. Get the gifts, but instead of sending them, store them in a secure place. So that if you ever did happen to reconnect, you can give them the gifts and still demonstrate that you have been thinking of them this entire time."

I don't know how I can present uncomfortable truths any gentler.

I understand it may be hard to tell the difference between discomfort and hostility, since both can feel equally unsettling on an emotional level.

But when users (inadvertently or not) encourage dysfunctional behaviors that only strengthen estrangements, than I feel an obligation to call it out and correct it.

I know misery loves company, but you shouldn't go so far as to lead people down the wrong path just for them to join your ranks.

There's a lot more people who see these posts than just the people posting, so I hope that my words reached someone in a desperately sad place and influenced them towards a more healthy, productive, functional path.

It's a useful phrase though isn't it fancythat and to play devil's advocate putting your wishes and feelings onto another, regardless of how it would be received can be said of those who decide to estrange.

You're right Iam and there's no need to be hostile toward anyone whose obviously hurting.

Yes I understand that fancythat. Polarised, hostile responses to this desperately sad situation don’t add much positive to the discussion. EAC and EP’s both are in desperately sad places.

Iam64

Wow what a very polarised, cold and critical view you express BoPeep.
For many, the continued sending of gifts on special occasion is an attempt to keep the door open. Many eventually sadly realise it’s hopeless.

Being devil's advocate[i hate that phrase but cant think of a better one right now], I think BoPeep is trying to say that, far from "an attempt to keep the door open", in reality it can be putting your wishes and feelings onto another, regardless of how it would be received.

Iam64

Wow what a very polarised, cold and critical view you express BoPeep.
For many, the continued sending of gifts on special occasion is an attempt to keep the door open. Many eventually sadly realise it’s hopeless.

This is exactly what I mean when I say dysfunctional.

Does not follow logic.

You send gifts to keep the door open, because otherwise it would be closed for you?

Do you believe a child who wishes to reconcile is unable to do so if they didn't receive any gifts or cards from their estranged parent?

If so, why do you believe that? Are you simply unaware of the fact that the door is always open in an estrangement if one party wishes it to be?

Those are mainly rhetorical questions, because I understand this line of thinking is simply a dysfunctional distortion that shields you from the reality, that you're sending those unwanted card because you selfishly prioritize your own needs over your child's.

Which I can promise you is a much more common theme of children estranging from their parent than a willy spouse, devious therapist, or some random mental illness/drug addiction.

And if you spoke to our ES he'd probably say the same as you BoopBeep but what does that prove? You are not our ES so I will not judge you or any EAC based on his behaviour.

It would be far more beneficial to any EP's here, if you didn't judge us based on your mother's behaviour.

Our ES isn't our only child, we continue to have a close and loving relationship with his brother.

Wow what a very polarised, cold and critical view you express BoPeep.
For many, the continued sending of gifts on special occasion is an attempt to keep the door open. Many eventually sadly realise it’s hopeless.

By all means, ignore what I have to say and continue with your own devices.

Send those unwanted cards and gifts! Turn that 1% chance of reconciliation into a nice and neat 0%!

Whatever helps YOU sleep at night!

I'm just trying to understand the justifications for (what I believe to be) indefensibly dysfunctional behavior.

"we are loving and decent parents who have been estranged."

It's funny, if you asked my "abusive mother" she would say the same exact thing nearly verbatim. Funnily enough, she also could never admit any fault and continued sending me cards after I asked for no more contact. Coincidence or not, both of you are also estranged from your only child.

I think I'm starting to notice a pattern here.

BoopBeep Pinkpeony came here for support because she was feeling very alone. Are you deliberately trying to put her off posting again? Because that is what will happen if you continue to monopolise the thread to attack estranged parents.
She asked for posters to "be kind" - you are doing the opposite.

I wouldn't be impertinent enough to judge your values BoopBeep I don't know you, but of course our perspectives differ because you estranged an abusive mother and we are loving and decent parents who have been estranged.

BoopBeep

Can you at least give your son some credit for his decision to estrange from you?

Or did you raise such a spineless, brainless individual that would throw away a set of loving and caring parents simply because their spouse wished it?

Or was the spouse such a mighty vixen that no-one's son could stand a chance against her wily woes?

Everyone, estranged or estranger, has their reasons for what they do.

Strangers on the net, not knowing the whole circumstances, and then pontificating anyway, helps no one.

Can you at least give your son some credit for his decision to estrange from you?

Or did you raise such a spineless, brainless individual that would throw away a set of loving and caring parents simply because their spouse wished it?

Or was the spouse such a mighty vixen that no-one's son could stand a chance against her wily woes?

No, it's not obvious. Unless you believe that being a person's parent entitles them to special privileges over that person (even well into adulthood).

Which in that case, we will have to agree to disagree because our fundamental values are polar opposites.

It should be obvious BoopBeep.

"The 'problem' in your response to me has nothing whatsoever to do with our situation and is totally irrelevant."

How so? Elucidate it for me.

How are they so different that they are apples to oranges.

I'm not here to justify our actions to you BoopBeep and have no intentions of doing so.

The 'problem' in your response to me has nothing whatsoever to do with our situation and is totally irrelevant.

So lets get this straight.

You put your own needs (the need to continue contact) above your child's needs (the need to separate from you).

Going forward, replace "estranged parent" with "stalker ex" to get a sense if an action is ok or not.

"I explicitly cut contact with my ex, telling them I never want to see or hear from them again, but they keep sending me cards and gifts on special occasions like my birthday. They even knew when and where I do my groceries and publicly ambushed me there. Having this unwanted contact continue is only causing me anxiety and distress!"

What would you say/feel if a friend (or even your own child) came to you with this problem?

Do you even care that your continued contact would upset your estranged child? Or were you too focused on your own needs to ever consider that possibility?