I need advice for a mutually messy situation

User You most definitely gave the impression that people should be accepting bad treatment, since you indirectly categorize estrangement as "petty retaliation, anger, and revenge", when in reality estrangement is done out of necessity and self-preservation when faced with toxic people who are incapable of change

I categorically do NOT categorise estrangement in that way atall and never have done.

I did not refer to estrangement in my comment, I only referred to your statement which I think is incorrect. My definition of "being the bigger person" was purely in response to what appeared to be your generalised statement re suggesting an AC to be the bigger person was "asinine"! I was referring to that in terms of what appeared to be a generalised statement about AC and parents rather than just specifically the OP.

As it happens I think the OP is absolutely doing the right thing for herself. But I do not agree that in relevant contexts an AC cannot be the bigger person. Age, experience and maturity as referred to by yourself have nothing to do with it.

I suggest we do not derail the OPs post and request for help and advice any further

Madgran77

*User But the idea that a child should be the bigger person than their parent is asinine. What about the saying that wisdom comes with age? Parents are always decades older than their child and also had the responsibility of raising said child, so expecting the child to be the bigger person is illogical and unreasonable.*

But once a child is an adult they CAN choose to behave in a more "mature" way than their parent. That is if one thinks of "being the bigger person" as
choosing maturity, restraint, and grace instead of reacting with petty retaliation, anger, or revenge when someone treats you poorly.

You most definitely gave the impression that people should be accepting bad treatment, since you indirectly categorize estrangement as "petty retaliation, anger, and revenge", when in reality estrangement is done out of necessity and self-preservation when faced with toxic people who are incapable of change (i.e. narcissists).

Also, there is nothing wrong with anger or other negative emotions. Attempts at demonizing and suppressing negative emotions only enables abuse to happen. Feeling negative emotions over a negative situation isn't just reasonable, but also healthy, since those negative emotions give us a clear indication that something is wrong.

One should feel angry if their parent doesn't care how they feel, and especially if they continue to be hurt by them.

Abusers are truly grateful for those who try to suppress and demonize a victim's anger, disappointment, and grief.

Allsorts

Why are people judging the father as narcissistic? Based no doubt on their own experiences. He has paid for heart surgery, bought groceries when she couldn't afford them, thats not a hard man. He has supported her with mental health struggles. There is no way in the world I could cut him out of my life. This estranging people is all about control with lots of people
these days, to switch off and walk away from anyone who disagrees or is challenging, to be honest I would not want that person in my life anyway so good riddance. I have a family member with mental health issues who has successfully alienated every single member of his family because he's disruptive, argumentative etc but also vulnerable, kind and can be thoughtful, it is very hard especially asI get older and I am scared if how he will be when I am gone, but until that day i see the good in him, the pain he must be in, no one chooses to be like that..
Sundowner, do not doubt your father cares. He is not narcisstic.

I'll tell you exactly why he's a narcissist, but why do you equate spending money with love?

That money spent wasn't even a sacrifice for him. He didn't spend his last penny on her or even miss a meal. Spending money is easy when you have an abundance of it, it doesn't automatically mean you love someone. There are many reasons to spend money on someone that don't involve love. Mainly for control (look how much I spent on you, you are obliged to love me back) or appearances (imagine the gossip around him if his daughter died because she couldn't afford surgery).

The reason he is clearly a narcissist is because sundown described him as someone who doesn't care about other's feelings and who lives in self-fabricated delusions in order to avoid reality.

Narcissist's have an extremely fragile and frail ego that can be knocked over by a simple gust of wind. This prevents them from ever genuinely admitting they made a mistake, and in turn, prevents them from growing and changing.

Equating spending money with love is a very harmful line of thinking. It's something I heard a lot as a child and it only kept me confused and in the hands of my abusers for longer than I ever should have been.

Instead, you should be telling people that love requires empathy and kindness. Being willing to listen, like genuinely listen, to others. Love never involves intentionally causing pain, and if pain was caused, it's swiftly followed by an apology and meaningful change from the perpetrator.

I wish I was told that spending money doesn't justify, excuse or negate the pain my parents intentionally caused me. Instead I was told exactly this absolute tripe, that their money was a clear indication of their love for me.

Rainbows I would argue that our dear OP is already the bigger person by avoiding conflict and owning up to their transgressions. I don't think being the bigger person in any way means allowing any kind of bad treatment

I agree; I hope my comment did not give the impression that the OP should be "allowing any kind of bad behaviour"

My comment was purely in response to Users who appeared to be suggesting that an AC being the bigger person was "asinine". Any adult can choose to be the bigger person on the basis of the definition I gave, whether to their parent or anyone else and age and experience is not relevant.

Yes of course once a child becomes an adult, they CAN choose to behave in a more "mature" way than their parent Madgran.

A very small thing to ask of anyone who claims to love you InRainbows.

I would argue that our dear OP is already the bigger person by avoiding conflict and owning up to their transgressions. I don't think being the bigger person in any way means allowing any kind of bad treatment.

I am also confused by the idea that anyone should be the bigger person in a relationship, it should be equal. I would even agree that it is difficult to put that expectation on a child in the relationship when they may not have been given those tools growing up and are having to find their way themselves.

As I said our dear OP does appear to be the bigger person and it would not be fair to ask more of them. Sometimes we evolve past others and it is necessary to protect that to avoid being dragged backwards again.

Someone close to me said that they will not continue a relationship with someone who doesn't love them enough to change what is hurting them. That is very profound isn't it? A very small thing to ask of a parent not to hurt you.

User But the idea that a child should be the bigger person than their parent is asinine. What about the saying that wisdom comes with age? Parents are always decades older than their child and also had the responsibility of raising said child, so expecting the child to be the bigger person is illogical and unreasonable.

But once a child is an adult they CAN choose to behave in a more "mature" way than their parent. That is if one thinks of "being the bigger person" as
choosing maturity, restraint, and grace instead of reacting with petty retaliation, anger, or revenge when someone treats you poorly.

Sundown. Wishing you all the very best with the dinner. As previous posters have said it takes great courage to post on the forum. I am happy that you have found some of the advice helpful. I really wish you all the best. Good luck. Take care.

I agree fancythat.

sundown I've taken the day to sit with the situation and think. I've finally come to a decision and worked up the courage to schedule dinner with both of my parents tomorrow. I plan to keep things light and positive, as suggested, and I'll make sure to express some gratitude. Hopefully, all goes well. Wish me luck!

Sound like a good plan, light and positive is nice. Hopefully, renewed contact, with Mum present, will lesten your upset.

You can't change your father When there's a problem, his go-to is to ignore, dismiss, deflect, or straight-up pretend that what's happening isn't happening. If anyone pushes back, he explodes. It leaves you in a position where you just have to stay quiet and never speak up for yourself if it goes against his narrative. But you can ignore is behaviour as much as is possible.

Anger had blinded me to only take my pain and experience into account.

That strikes me as being profound.

Why are people judging the father as narcissistic? Based no doubt on their own experiences. He has paid for heart surgery, bought groceries when she couldn't afford them, thats not a hard man. He has supported her with mental health struggles. There is no way in the world I could cut him out of my life. This estranging people is all about control with lots of people
these days, to switch off and walk away from anyone who disagrees or is challenging, to be honest I would not want that person in my life anyway so good riddance. I have a family member with mental health issues who has successfully alienated every single member of his family because he's disruptive, argumentative etc but also vulnerable, kind and can be thoughtful, it is very hard especially asI get older and I am scared if how he will be when I am gone, but until that day i see the good in him, the pain he must be in, no one chooses to be like that..
Sundowner, do not doubt your father cares. He is not narcisstic.

Wonderful news Sundown I hope all goes well and I hope this is a new era in your life
I think you are feeling lighter already
Can’t wait to hear how it goes
💐

Have you ever heard the saying "you can't change others, only yourself"

I think that you have to understand that changing yourself for the better or how you are around your father is not dependent on him changing. You really don't need to help him to help you.

If I am honest, the relationships around me, none are perfect but I notice there is a tendency to have trouble weighing this up with family. Most of us would say the good far outweighs the bad in relationships we feel secure in but when it is family that we have strong attachments too, we give more weight to the good naturally without thought.

If you are estranged right now and you know that going back won't change things with him and those things bring you pain then take this time to heal yourself from what has affected your mental health. I would guess that only then will you be in a position to weigh up this relationship and decide how to proceed. Even should you feel the need to apologise for your part in how things turned out, if a change in you brings no change in him then you will have your answer.

We can and do change for those we are capable of loving truly. Every person is capable of respecting those boundaries that are so important these days. Avoiding subjects. Putting things kindly. Keeping our anger in check. Not doing so is a choice. If someone can not choose to be a better person for you then I expect that is because on some level they enjoy being a person who hurts you.

sundown x

Thank you, Smileless2012! I'll be sure to update you afterward. You've been so welcoming and kind. Wishing you all the best and an amazing week ahead too!

To say I hope it goes well would be an understatement sundown and of course I wish you luck; lots of luck.

I'm so pleased that having the courage to post here because it does take courage, has helped and it would be lovely if you were able to come back and let us know how it goes.

Great post valdali, especially the final paragraph.

Thank you petra, that's very kind and much appreciated. .

I just want to thank everyone for taking the time to read my story. It really means a lot to me, and I’ve taken your advice to heart. I had gone to friends and family for advice before, but it wasn't helpful; it was always one extreme or the other, with no nuance.

I was content to let sleeping dogs lie until I learned that my father had gotten sick. I'm not sure of his exact diagnosis, but he has autoimmune disorders that have gotten so bad they forced my workaholic father to retire early. That scared me. To give context, my father’s job used to have to force him to take vacation days.

I've taken the day to sit with the situation and think. I've finally come to a decision and worked up the courage to schedule dinner with both of my parents tomorrow. I plan to keep things light and positive, as suggested, and I'll make sure to express some gratitude. Hopefully, all goes well. Wish me luck!

Ps. Seriously, thank you so much for all the encouragement. It's helped tremendously. I'm now able to see through a new lens that I had closed myself off to. Anger had blinded me to only take my pain and experience into account.

Smileless2012
Being a long time member like yourself I remember that awful time. I was so impressed and pleased in the way you and your husband came the decision you did.

Absolutely, B&J.

We're all people, everyone's someone's child & a lot of us are parents. Trump is a parent. I would like to think I could be a bigger person than Trump in his situation (though I accept I never will be).

We're all fallible. Parenthood was just a rite of passage for our generation, not something you chose after years of analysing whether it was right for you.And in the present child-bearing generation there are parents who cannot even provide basic needs of their child because of drug addiction or other MH problems.

Don't blame your parents for you being here - they didn't choose you any more than you chose them. Estrange them if you must but don't encourage others to see their parents as the cause of all that's wrong in their world because they're usually not.

The problem is Spring, people are labelling people they've never even met as narcissists, toxic, damaged and abusive and at times because they're projecting their personal experiences onto others.

sundown came here looking for advice and the vast majority of responses have provided that but it's a shame to have seen them referred to as unhelpful and counterproductive sentiments because they don't align with someone's personal experience.

As a parent whose been estranged for more than 13.5 years, I have found this thread particularly moving and uplifting, beginning with the OP; sundown's subsequent posts and the informative and supportive responses which for the most part, she's received.

Thank you for starting it sundown. I have a feeling you'll have helped others who are living with all the pain and grief that estrangement can bring.

@User 143981

But the idea that a child should be the bigger person than their parent is asinine. What about the saying that wisdom comes with age? Parents are always decades older than their child

Have you never heard old age described as "a second childhood"?

By the time the parent reaches old age , their adult child may have far surpassed them in wisdom, maturity, resilience, breadth of life experience. And in empathy, tolerance, resilience.

My eldest son and his friends are all middle aged senior medics and admit they are comparing notes and observations on their respective aged parents progress into antiquity. I'm conscious of DH and me being sideways- eye observed and occasionally, very subtly supported.

sundown

I'm coming from the perspective of a daughter who has estranged herself from her father. I have a great relationship with my mom, but I simply can't keep holding up the relationship with my father. I've tried talking to him many times, to no avail.

He doesn't take my thoughts or feelings into consideration; he believes that as long as he's comfortable with his words and actions, everyone else should be too. He can't see outside of his own perspective. He constantly dismisses me and makes me uncomfortable, then says it's my fault and that I need to change myself to suit his needs yet he would never change any of his behaviors for me.

It feels like he's stuck in a fantasy version of reality. When there's a problem, his go-to is to ignore, dismiss, deflect, or straight-up pretend that what's happening isn't happening. If anyone pushes back, he explodes. It leaves you in a position where you just have to stay quiet and never speak up for yourself if it goes against his narrative.

At the same time, he has made many sacrifices for me. He’s brought me groceries when I was sick, paid for my heart surgery, and financially supported me through my struggles with mental health issues. That being said, I'm no angel. I don't think I've been a great daughter either. I have been absent and cold when things were inconvenient for me, and I haven't made sacrifices for him.

I would love to mend the brokenness of our relationship, but how can I do that with someone who values their own comfort over our relationship (I guess the same could be said about me too, icing him out for my comfort)? I know he's lonely and hurting from our broken bond (my mom tells me about it), and I feel terrible, but I genuinely don't know what to do.

My best advice is just to do what makes you feel happiest.

If it’s no contact - then fine.

If it’s low contact - also fine

If it’s to try and build a new relationship from now on- then fine again.

You’re an adult now - you can make the choices.

I’ve estranged a few family members - I’ve always been clear with the reasons, I’ve made sure it was the right decision for me, and I’ve told them (by voice) why I’d made that decision.

Then, I’ve never looked back or given them headspace. Because I took the time to make the decision.

The past has gone - look to what you want in the future.

Life doesn’t always need to be dramas, therapy, navel gazing - just follow your own feelings. 😉

I sometimes think it is easy to blame what we like to call a narcissistic/ toxic parent.
They get demonized without any thought that they might detest the behaviours they exhibit. Beat themselves up afterwards. Sundown has mentioned the loving things her father has done for her….maybe that is his way of expressing his love. It can’t just be dismissed.
She also mentioned the ‘horrible’ childhood he had. No doubt many of his issues stem from this, and his behaviour accordingly. People love to denounce narcissists and yet forget they have a serious personality disorder that they seemingly can’t do anything about. A thought…can some compassion be found instead of outrage (not meaning you Sundown).
I think it unlikely you can change his behaviour towards you at this stage. My advice would be to find ways to manage it - good boundaries as others have said, removing yourself if things become uncomfortable, speaking out if you disagree or feel diminished. Keeping in touch by text for a while if physical proximity gets difficult. If you can feel pity/compassion for him it might be easier. It is admirable you are able to acknowledge his kind heart in this struggle. It isn’t easy……but neither is it helpful to write off another person. We are all a mixture of shades of light and dark. Some have had opportunities to see this and work on it. Others haven’t/ for whatever reason aren’t able to do so. Your father whilst difficult has shown he loves you. I really hope you can find a way to manage the situation Sundown, and accept he may not be able to be the father you might hope for, but even so find something to cherish in the relationship. Wishing you well!

Estrangement isn't for everyone StTrinians and when it's chosen, it doesn't always bring the healing and peace envisaged which is perhaps what sundown has found being estranged from her father, and why she would love to mend the brokenness of (their) relationship, which I hope she'll manage to achieve.