I need advice for a mutually messy situation

User 143981. Thank you for sharing this. Yes, it resonates. I have been even been called Polyanna (!) So, yes, all of this seems fairly familiar to me. We each negociate life as best we can. I had to do so without therapy when I was young and middle aged, but I did have reading, especially poetry, and literature, including philosophy in 2 languages. That has always been a huge solace to me. My family was all part of the emotional abuse, all of them, and it is still ongoing. But as you say, by accepting we are enabling, and as none of us can deal with situations in isolation, we have to largely endure people who can't or won't change their ways, of how they are. Now, at my age, I can look back on it all, and see, yes, "emotional abuse". I would love to have tried to change things, but the situations were too complex and extreme. I was a child, then an adolescent, then in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, when finally I sought help (at 50?) ...So, I had to get into my little canoe, and paddle in through the waters as best I could. Yes, I had to distance myself, ignore things I should have called out, (as when I did call them out, I was bullied, banished, or humiliated.) Sadly, these patterns have been repeated through the generations of my family, the emotional abuse is shot through it all. (The positives are these. ...At the end of the day, my parents loved me. I am very grateful to be here, and my life has been blessed in many ways, one of which is a huge empathy. I do feel for victims of abuse, especially emotional abuse, which is so insidious that we don't always know we suffered it. (It actually went nameless until recently.) But, looking back, these people, were our family, they too likely victims of trauma, and they too were without tools or education,( so largely unable to break the cycle. ) I could write hundreds of paragraphs, books... Suffice to say that with seeking help, you can decide to assess and act accordingly. Accept this situation for what it is perhaps. That it is about the perpetrator not you, and act then accordingly. My advice? Try to see them as a human being. I think that speaking your truth to trusted people is also very, very important, so talk to trusted friends. They too will have a perspective that may illuminate. We all have to go through things in life, the unpleasant people are sadly a part of it, and each person copes with cruelty with varying success and to varying degrees. As the writer has acknowledged, she can't change her father. That to me is the crux. But, however flawed he is, he still loves her. That, to me, is his one key redeeming quality. I hope that she can find a way to deal with him, because estrangement is not really the whole answer, although it is an easier path that so many people increasingly take. I haven't said everything here. There is not enough space. I don't want to seem glib, as it is an important topic. I just feel that estrangement is so strongly advocated for, perhaps too easily? It is the easy route, rather than dealing with the reality of the person, and the forgiveness it takes. I have always taken "the path less travelled by", and yes, tgat has "made all the difference" I wouldn't change that for the world. I hope that she finds peace. She is not alone. As the desiderata says it is still a beautiful world. Strive to be happy.

Unfortunately you can’t see beyond your own horrible childhood User and that totally colours all your posts.
You seem to judge all relationships by your own experiences, but everyone is different and every experience and reaction to that experience is different, This appears to be where something is missing in your own healing
This thread is not about you but you have seemed to dominate it with your own experiences
Let’s get back to Sundown who seems to have made some very sensible judgements without bitterness
I hope we hear from you in the future Sundown that you have had a peaceful meal out with mum and dad and that you have moved forward into a new era of the relationship

When the tremendous, but much needed leap of estranging my parents, I heard many of the same (ultimately unhelpful and counterproductive) sentiments found on this thread. Almost word for word even.

I was lucky in a sense, that my mistreatment was so bizarre, brazen, and severe that it left little to no confusion about how I felt about my parents. When it eventually became abundantly clear to me that my parents had absolutely no place in my life, the instances of toxic positivity that followed had no effect on me or my decision making.

It showed me that the world by and large seldomly has empathy for victims of parental abuse. Most people would rather go down the path of least resistance. Holding people accountable and demanding change requires much more effort and headache than simply encouraging the victim to continue taking the abuse/mistreatment.

I can imagine someone else who didn't have good enough parents, but weren't as bad as mine, successfully falling for this toxic positivity and having more of their life wasted on toxic people.

Personally I don't see the merit in a surface level, ingenuine relationship with anyone, family or not. But do whatever makes you happy, and hopefully going forward the father can behave properly and never hurt and disappoint you again.

I'm going to share and quote this article because I think it's very relevant to this thread.

The pollyanna enabler, the narcissist's most treasured minion

The Pollyanna enabler is a person who tends to excuse or rationalize the abusive behavior of others, often due to an extreme compulsion to maintain a relentlessly positive outlook on life. Even when confronted with evidence of mistreatment, they may try to find a good side to the story or downplay the severity of the behavior. The term “Pollyanna” refers to a character in a children’s book who always maintained an optimistic attitude in the face of adversity.

Pollyanna enablers utilize toxic positivity by promoting an excessively optimistic and unrealistic perspective in situations involving abuse or toxic relationships.

- Pollyanna enablers are individuals who encourage a victim of abuse or mistreatment to adopt an overly positive outlook, even when faced with harmful or toxic behavior.

- They employ toxic positivity by minimizing or denying the negativity or severity of abusive actions, and by emphasizing the importance of maintaining a positive attitude and the relationship at any cost.

- Pollyanna enablers may discourage open discussions about the abusive behavior, and downplay the suffering experienced by the victim.

This toxic positivity can lead to emotional suppression and the invalidation of the victim’s feelings, preventing them from addressing the abusive situation, seeking help, or setting necessary boundaries. In essence, Pollyanna enablers use toxic positivity to enable the continuation of abuse by emphasizing positivity at the expense of addressing and confronting negative experiences and emotions.

Common Phrases
- Don’t dwell on the negative.
- You should be more forgiving and understanding.
- You only have one parent, so try harder to get along with them; you will regret it if you don’t.
- Sure, they may have hurt you, but they also did so much good for you.
- They worry about you; doesn’t that count to you?

In the end, the Pollyanna enabler’s refusal to acknowledge the real issues perpetuates the cycle of abuse and denies justice to the real victims. It is important to recognize this behavior and hold enablers accountable for their actions, in order to break the cycle of abuse and create a safer, healthier environment for everyone involved.

User143981. My advice would still be, forgive and forget. Time to move on. No one is perfect. Not even you, or I.. Being the best version of oneself is a better way to be.

If there's the possibility of rebuilding an important relationship, it's always worth pursuing StTrinians. Even if it isn't successful, there can be peace knowing that you did what you could.

I haven't seen anyone defending the OP (estranged child) or a parent (her father) stillawipp and for the record if your post @ 21.33 was directed at me, I don't always defend the parents. Not one of my posts on this thread has been in defence of the OP's father.

StTrinians

User( x number...) I see what you mean. However, I do advocate for forgiveness. It is worth cultivating it. It is not a matter of ignoring what happened in the past, or money, but it is about moving forward and rebuilding an important relationship, while there is still time. That is something no one cannot get back, or change when it's too late.

But this isn't only just the past, but also the present and likely future, given that her father sees nothing wrong with his behavior.

I think we all know by now that certain posters will always defend the parents and others will always defend the estranged child…could we maybe move on & get back to the original point of the thread now, before it goes the way of so many before it?!

User( x number...) I see what you mean. However, I do advocate for forgiveness. It is worth cultivating it. It is not a matter of ignoring what happened in the past, or money, but it is about moving forward and rebuilding an important relationship, while there is still time. That is something no one cannot get back, or change when it's too late.

For goodness sake User!!! sundown came here for advice, not a character assassination of her father.

StTrinians

Try to lower your bar of what you think he should be like. He clearly loves you, and really, that is all that matters. Make up with him. Disregard his past behaviour. It is in the past. Try to plan some fun events, (and rise above it all.) The reason I say this is that you will have no regrets if you behave impecably towards him. He won't be here forever. You only have one father. Try to be kind, and to forgive, for both your sakes. Good luck.

Not caring how she feels is a very strange kind of love. Spending some money, especially if you have an abundance of it, is not clearly love. In most cases, that money spent is the bare legal minimum so that you don't go to jail for child neglect.

In my case, I'm glad there's only one of them because I don't see myself surviving if there were two!

Is it worth writing a long detailed letter to him?
Without coming across too negative?
Send it to him, and keep a copy yourself, so you know exactly what you have said?

Smileless2012

No this isn't me normalising her father's behaviour User.

Not all AC who estrange their parents do so because there's something wrong with their parents and/or their childhoods. That's the reality and has nothing to do with the OP's relationship with her father.

sundown wants to try and rebuild her relationship with her father; why do you have a problem with that?

I don't have a problem with it. I posted earlier that she could probably convince him to have a surface level relationship with him, if that makes her happy.

There is no reason for you to act like what normal is than when you know I'm talking about sundown's unwell father.

Try to lower your bar of what you think he should be like. He clearly loves you, and really, that is all that matters. Make up with him. Disregard his past behaviour. It is in the past. Try to plan some fun events, (and rise above it all.) The reason I say this is that you will have no regrets if you behave impecably towards him. He won't be here forever. You only have one father. Try to be kind, and to forgive, for both your sakes. Good luck.

No this isn't me normalising her father's behaviour User.

Not all AC who estrange their parents do so because there's something wrong with their parents and/or their childhoods. That's the reality and has nothing to do with the OP's relationship with her father.

sundown wants to try and rebuild her relationship with her father; why do you have a problem with that?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

No one's trying to minimise or normalise a parents unresolved trauma that negatively affects their children User. You appear to be seeing things on this thread that others including the OP, isn't seeing.

I find it sad and even kind of insidious how some try to minimize and even normalize parents unabashedly having unresolved trauma, even when that trauma directly and negative affects their children.

Even if many families carry generational trauma, it's not something that should be considered normal or acceptable.

While it is difficult to change as a person, resolving your trauma, it's not impossible. Having children is also not necessary, so if you choose to have them, you owe them the effort of fixing your issues. Ideally.

There are many people who won't, under any circumstances, admit any wrongdoing and I think all of us a some trait of this, be it big or small. It becomes a problem when we feel our wellbeing is at stake (being on the receiving end of it) and that's the time we have to put up boundaries. Is it possible to spend time with him when there are other people around so there isn't a chance of any 'heated argument or discussion. I know this is not addressing the issue but sometimes it is impossible to do this as it can make the situation worse. If it is not possible to be with him without this happening then perhaps professional counselling might help you. They will advise how to deal with things and accept the situation. I can empathise with you as i am in the same situation with my sibling.

I don't understand why you appear to have a problem with the OP believing she has some responsibility for the situation with her father User.

She clearly doesn't see him as being solely responsible for the breakdown of the relationship which could be why she wants to try to repair it.

Some times adult children feel the need to be absent and cold toward their parents^, despite them being 'normal' (whatever that means) and well adjusted.

Smileless2012

She says she's been absent and cold when things were inconvenient for her User, something which she's reproaching herself for which maybe in addition to having negative emotions toward her father, but is not only for that reason.

And I'm trying to explain that being absent and cold, especially if its an inconvenience, is a reasonable and valid reaction when having an immature parent that is stunted from trauma.

It's easy to imagine if she had a more normal, well-adjusted father, that she than likely wouldn't feel the need to be absent and cold with him in the first place.

Gracey

It's a hard one to call.
Without knowing either of you, I'd say your father is one of those people (like one of my sisters) who doesn't do "feelings".
Sounds like he has a kind heart, but he is very buttoned up.
My sister is exactly the same, and if we expect more of her than she is willing (or able) to give, tensions arise and the atmosphere becomes strained.

It's easy to dismiss such people as cold fish, as they seem hard hearted, selfish, uncaring. In my sister's case I now believe she is on the autistic spectrum ( aren't we all, to some degree?) and finds expressing loving emotions difficult. Press her too hard and she gets testy. However, in her own way she has shown herself to be very thoughtful, caring and kind.

Perhaps, as you express feelings of guilt too, you have to accept the status quo. Leopards don't change their spots, and certainly in old age most people need a comfort zone and are uncomfortable with shifting relationships or change.

How about from now on, you throw only pleasant remarks, kind thoughts and nice deeds into your relationship with your father? Don't expect much back but you are being the better person by not expecting too much of him. Quite often in relationships one person puts more in than the other and sometimes that keeps things ticking over if you don't want constant animosity. I can quite understand that the easier path is to give up, walk away, keep your distance.

There's a decent, kind heart under his difficult exterior, by the sound of things.
I've found that if I want peace of mind and a difficult situation resolved, hanging on to that olive branch helps ME too.
It doesn't excuse bad behaviour but it helps me come to terms with family members who just don't react as I feel they should.
We don't always get what we want, do we?

As my lovely Mum used to say " It takes all sorts to make a world" It's true, and you can't always change people.

Excellent advice.

She says she's been absent and cold when things were inconvenient for her User, something which she's reproaching herself for which maybe in addition to having negative emotions toward her father, but is not only for that reason.

Smileless2012

Yes BlueBelle, this thread is about sundown who as you say appears to have a very good understanding of both herself and her father.

Projecting your experience isn't going to help the OP User. Her relationship with her father isn't the relationship you had with your own parents.

She's aware of her father's failings and how she's contributed to the breakdown of the relationship, and any guilt she's feeling appears to be because of how she's behaved in the past and not because she's been made to feel guilty by her parents.

I wish you well sundown in your pursuit of a better relationship with your father .

It doesn't matter who made her guilty or why. I don't think she should feel guilty at all for having negative emotions toward her father when he was the one who chose to have children while having unresolved childhood trauma.

Yes BlueBelle, this thread is about sundown who as you say appears to have a very good understanding of both herself and her father.

Projecting your experience isn't going to help the OP User. Her relationship with her father isn't the relationship you had with your own parents.

She's aware of her father's failings and how she's contributed to the breakdown of the relationship, and any guilt she's feeling appears to be because of how she's behaved in the past and not because she's been made to feel guilty by her parents.

I wish you well sundown in your pursuit of a better relationship with your father .