UK would run out of food today

I agree entirely that it's all about common sense. Of course the UK isn't going to run out of food. We trade with other countries and they with us so that we don't (and they don't either) run out of food.

That, for me, is the common sense bit. It's not as if food trade (any trade) is anything new. It's been going on for as long as people have been able to get food from one place to another, the distances between the places have expanded with better transport is all.

Food banks are preventing people from starving. Food banks, though far less than ideal, are an improvement on famine. My point is that at least we have the food required to feed people even if its method of distribution is not always of the fairest.

It's just the way of the modern world is n't it? We now have container ships and aeroplanes, so, of course, we trade.

Who wants to go back to the days of the poor going hungry because there was a bad harvest?

And I like bananas.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions

Not read this, then, bags?

That was (is) a tragic case but the reasons it happened are not that there wasn't enough food in the country, which I understood to be the point being discussed. My understanding may have been incorrect.

There but for the grace of God....

No point in there being enough food in the country if it doesn't get to those who need it. The same in lots of other countries in the world.
How can somebody known to the authorities starve to death in this country, yet at the same time we are wasting so much food? It's obscene.

Agreed. Did you look at that Wisconsin link? It's making a similar point.

I have not said that we should not import food, and I am not advocating protectionism, just wondering whether we could be producing more home-grown food (heard of food miles, anyone?) and relying less on imports.

If we can buy NZ lamb cheaper than lamb produced just up the road then there is something wrong.

I love bananas, tea, spices, olive oil etc - I am not saying we should import nothing from abroad! Unlike Australia and the USA we do not have the differences in climate here to be able to produce the wide variety of food we have become accustomed to.

Incidentally, we do import mangoes from S America but they are not a patch on those produced in Australia. Why do we import them from S America - is it because the S American farms are heavily subsidised? Are their farmers earning a subsistence wage? Whatever the reason, they are fairly
cheap for something that has travelled across the world.

I suppose the less we import the less likely other countries will want to buy what we produce. Big business and trade agreements win.

Elegran, the humorous comment on the use of the word organic was feetlebaum’s; all I did was agree with him. But you were quite right in your explanation of why I, and I suspect feetle, find the current usage irritating, given the precise scientific meeting that originally attached to the terms organic and inorganic.

I am well aware of the new meaning that organic has acquired and accept the usage, but that does not stop me being irritated by it, or disliking the way it is used to justify a premium on food products so described, when in many cases there is no discernible nutritional benefit. My attitude to hearing the word “organic” in front of “food” is not unlike Goering’s on hearing the word “culture”, but being a gentle soul I don’t reach for my revolver - I just don’t buy the product.

I am equally suspicious of the disyllable “gastro” when it precedes “pub”, but we are blessed with a living language.

In WW2 food was rationed. There was enough to go round and it is said that the diet then was much healthier.

Sorry I attributed Feetlebaums post to you, Grumppa. Like you, I accept that the word is now used much more to specifically denote food produced in a certain way, but given its original meaning as "not inorganic" it does rather tag food grown any other way as being somehow unreal and factory-made out of powdered nuts and bolts. The term now really describes the methods of growing and feeding the foodstuffs, and keeping down the weeds and pests around it. The actual foodstuff is an organic, living, growing thing - but so is any other grown foodstuff, however it is husbanded.

The superiority of organically grown produce over other kinds is another subject entirely. For most people in the world, getting enough food of any kind is the priority. Being choosy about how that food is fed comes after that.

What is bizarre is that almost exactly the same tonnage of potatoes is exported from the UK to Germany as is imported by the UK from Germany. I have no idea what the logic of that is supposed to be.

Trading agreements happened before the logic is how. Someone who sells potatoes in the UK made some deal in Germany. Someone who sells potatoes made some deal in the UK. Probably nothing to do with each other. These two things happen repeatedly over a period of time.

Then someone comes along and says "That's illogical". Logic doesn't come into it except insofar as it makes sense to the sellers and buyers of potatoes at the time of the deal. There's no overseer saying no, "You can't do that because germany is exporting the same amount as the UK is so you might as well stop it". The sellers would have to start from scratch again. Why should they? People's income and well-being depends on those trades.

It is, of course, perfectly reasonable for a potato-grower in whichever country to want to sell her potatoes to the best bidder wherever that bidder may be, or to sell them to the market that just wants her potatoes. Isn't this what everyone with something to sell does?

One of the unexpected benefits of the schools' allotment project was that parents and grandparents who did not normally have much to do with the school arrived to help - especially the granddads. We hadn't anticipated that. They had skills that they could share and the value of that to the children and the community was huge. The UK has a fine tradition of growing food in gardens and on allotments and it seems all wrong that those skills should be lost.
I don't dispute the need for and the desirability of trade, but the problem seems to me that much of this is bound up with the demand for cheap processed food that take people further and further away from real food and healthier eating. As we know, this is causing immense problems for the health of the population. The food may be cheaper and more "convenient" but the cost to the nation is surely greater. I know it is hard to eat well when a budget is very, very limited, but people like Jack Monroe have demonstrated that it is possible. It is also perfectly possible to work full-time and cook; it might require a bit more organisation, but that is all.
I think the use of the word organic is a side issue. It makes no more sense than biologique does here; it doesn't matter as long as we know what we mean. I will continue to grow and buy organic food, because I don't want to eat the residues of pesticides and I think it tastes better. I am happy to pay a premium for this.
This is a major issue related to health, wellbeing and the use of the world's resources. Thanks rosequartz for raising it.

It is, of course, perfectly reasonable for a potato-grower in whichever country to want to sell her potatoes to the best bidder wherever that bidder may be, or to sell them to the market that just wants her potatoes. Isn't this what everyone with something to sell does?

Bags (and anyone else interested), yes, of course it is perfectly reasonable. But it does seem very odd to me that potatoes, which will probably sell for the same price as British potatoes in the supermarket or veg shop, are being imported from Germany and the same amount being exported to Germany. It seems illogical in fact, and dependent on historic agreements which could be re-negotiated.
I haven't seen German potatoes in the shops - even our local Lidl sells British potatoes.

It does not seem so long ago that 'food miles' were the concern in the media but we don't seem to hear so much of this any more. Is it no longer fashionable?

I think the schools allotment project which Mamie mentioned sounds a great idea, plus visits to community farms, as many children may never know otherwise where their food comes from.
Didn't one of the schools in Kent raise some sheep with the idea of showing children where their meat comes from, but were not allowed to carry on with the project because a parent protested? I vaguely remember something about it.
Perhaps we are too squeamish these days and many people will not associate their pre-packed mince or chops sitting on the supermarket shelf with an animal.
One of the tv chefs started some similar community projects which were televised a while ago (was it Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall?).

Thanks for your responses; must go as we are off to the Agricultural Show!

The situation with apples has been ridiculous for a long time. England has some of the best orchards and apples in the world- and yet, come the autumn, can you buy any in the supermarkets? They all come from France (le Crunch, my foot! tasteless). I used to ask a member of staff to call for the fruit and verg supervisor, and then ask- where are the tasty British apples? and they came up with some rubbish answer. What is the point of having British orchards going to unkempt rack and ruin- with the tastiest and most wonderful apples- and then import inferior products??? Makes no sense at all.

Same of course for pears, plums, damsons, etc, etc. Traditional orchards, with their huge benefit for bio-diversity and especially bees- will have all disappeared by the mid 21C if we don't do something about it. Buying British fruit would be a start- why not insist on it?

BTW what is your favourite English apple?

The cox, without a doubt. Le granny and le golden are abominations imo.
Actually where my DD lives in Kent the supermarkets do have a lot of local produce, which is proudly marked with the supplier. Waitrose is the best, of course.
Don't know about anyone else but our apple and pear crop looks very good this year. The plums did, but they are rotting quickly.

Mamie unintended positive consequences indeed. Our guerrilla allotment has had the effect of people who would ignored us for years, greet, nod or acknowledge us in some way. Interesting.

I agree with all of the above comments re food waste and you make a very good point about behind it being the drive for processed food, and of course that fresh food can be made quickly too.

My SIL has been staying with us and she is vegetarian so I have had to be a bit more creative (when I have vegetarians here we all eat vegetarian all the time). I made a noodle dish the other night with thinly sliced fresh ginger, stir-fried as the basis, I added whatever vegetables were in the fridge, added broad beans from the garden, added a splosh of soy and sweet chillli sauce, finished by adding finely sliced raw red salad onions (also from the garden) on top. It took less than 5 minutes to assemble and cook.

Bramley Apples. Can't get these cookers here, so I grow my own. They're in great demand from friends.

Cox's Orange Pippin - can't get these here either, so hoping to plant a tree soon

I've found some French apples delicious.

Potatoes: I've bought Israeli potatoes in Lidl, and grown a few Cornish ones in my little patch.

Variety is the spice of life - oh, and I loath cinnamon.

I think we're all extremely fortunate to have such a choice and range of foods from across the globe from which to pick and choose. I enjoyed BBQ-ed Plantain just a few weeks ago when in London. Delicious.

There are indeed excellent French apples- but they are not the ones imported by the xxxx tons to the UK commercially- and even so- with so many delicious English apples- why import any in season? I admit to eating apples all year round though- much easier to say than to do- of course. But there is no harm in giving it a damn try and supporting local produce- to the largest extent possible. Makes sense to import cinnamon- as we can't grow it- common sense, or curcuma, and other spices.

Of course an awful lot of land is used to produce hops and grapes, etc- and nobody complains about that ;) (not me either).

About Bramley apples ... we've just bought a fixer upper house - husband's plan for my retirement - near where we live and I've been poking around in the overgrown garden (in fact I can't stay away from there so maybe husband is right about the project) and there's an apple tree at the bottom of the garden, and I am certain the apples are Bramley's. Shall I just take a chance and use them or might I poison us? It looks like a Bramley apple, I bit into one, it tastes like a Bramley ...