Veganism

what I've never understood is that if I have a vegan/vegetarian to dinner I am expected to cater for them (which I am happy to do) but they are not expected to reciprocate.

Whether you call it murder or not is immaterial. It involves the death of a sentient creature who does not wish to have its throat cut and hung upside down.

Replying to the posts about the dictionary definition of murder. The Oxford English Dictionary also defines murder as to kill or slaughter animals.

Ahem! As a John Seymour devotee and now a fan of Charles Dowding (No Dig) I can say we've been doing our bit for donkey's years in terms of growing our own and being as self-sufficient as we can.

Your farmer is correct but without knowing anything about his land or what he farms/grows, it's not possible to say whether or not I agree with him.

Not all land is suitable for crop production just as not all land is suitable for livestock.

I was looking over nearby farmland with a farmer recently and he told me that to have a few sheep in the fields when the land could be far more productive was a waste of good land. He's not vegetarian but like John Seymour back in the 70s, thinks we should all be more involved with the growing of the food we eat and grown locally would mean fewer air miles and less waste.
In Victorian times it was possible to grow quite exotic fruit in the UK. So why can't we still?

I thought of this thread whilst in Sainsbury's this morning. A man asked a shop assistant where he could find Coconut Cacao Powder. She looked a bit baffled and reached for her gadget to type in the details. I'd just passed it (thinking, What the heck is this?) so butted in and told the man where to find it.

The cheeky blighter took a really good look in my trolley as he thanked me. I had some gluten free pasta ✓ GF wholemeal bread ✓ fresh vegetables ✓ and organic vegetable stock powder ✓✓

Unfortunately there was an extra large chicken plonked on top. and I'm sure I detected a 'tut'

Canine teeth- not a good argument to eat meat- most mammals have canine teeth and many are herbivores, even those with the largest teeth such as hippos.
Gorillas have huge teeth but are almost exclusively herbivorous. Mountain gorillas prefer a diet of foliage — leaves, stems, pith, and shoots — and a small amount of fruit. Lowland gorillas also eat leaves and pith, but they eat more fruits, and, occasionally, tiny ants or termites. Gorillas’ giant canines have nothing to do with eating meat.

I haven’t read all the posts on here but I’ve just googled- has meat eating made a contribution to human development ? and there seems to be a consensus of opinion that it has.
I also appear to have a set of teeth that seem consistent with meat eating.
That said I really don’t care what other people choose to eat but I will continue to eat meat about 3 times a week

We already grow more than enough food to feed the world even with a larger population.

A third of the world food supply rots or deteriorates before it gets to market, Many famines, like those in Yemen and Sudan are caused by warfare, or, as in Zimbabwe, by poor governance, others arise from natural disasters, displaced people caused by the above. Then there are the many who are too poor to buy food.

But there is no starvation in the world caused by there being too little food to go round globally.

In developed countries there is gross wastage of food through households over buying and not respecting food and supermarkets setting unrealisitic standards for fruit and vegetables that leads to farmers ploughing crops back into the fields.

As has already been pointed out animal (and human) excrement is, and always has been, an important fertiliser of soil and the only alternative is inorganic fertilisers made from, among other things, natural gas.

I don't think we will be overrun by wild boar somehow. Just because the whole world isn't going to be vegan doesn't mean no-one can. Surely if we want to lessen our impact on climate change, destruction of forests, pollution of oceans, we should try to do so.
We could feed more people with less land, water and resource usage if people eat less meat. A Cornell University article states that the US alone could feed about 800 million more people “if all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people”.

So what do you want then, suzied?

Describe the perfect scenario where farmers can grow enough food to feed a growing population whilst fending off marauding wild boar. The natural habitat for oxen, sheep, goats, pigs etc., won't last long unless it's carefully managed.

Farm animals have been inbred by humans and the wild species of goats, pigs, oxen, sheep etc wouldn't necessarily die out unless humans go on destroying their habitat. They have only been bred to exploit and aren't really "natural" species.

Mixed farming is essential for the good of the environment. Without animals, farmers have no choice but to use chemical fertilizer. The organic movement has been growing over the years and our soil has benefited. Undoing all that good would be madness.

Nothing wrong with cutting down on meat and eating more vegetables but it all needs to be kept into perspective.

I can understand that anyone might want to avoid eating meat because they don't like animals being killed or worry about the planet. I certainly hate factory farming and the way the animals are kept in order to have cheap meat. However, if everybody gave up eating meat and dairy products, what would happen to farm animals? I can't imagine many people keeping them as they aren't cute and cuddly in the same way as, say, cats and dogs. Would we let the different species die out?

If meat is murder. What about killing rats, mice or other vermin?

It’s not hard to eat a vegan diet and the food can be just as scrummy as any other food. It just requires a bit of thought to change what you’re used to. Eating less meat and dairy is necessary for the planet for all sorts of reasons. So just having a go at vegans for not being “true” vegans or whatever doesn’t help. We should do as little harm as possible to our fellow inhabitants of this planet, human and animal, if that means killing fewer animals, destroying less wildlife , eating less processed food, caring more about how our food is produced, then that has got to be a good thing. Sneering at people who don’t wish to eat animals because they aren’t perfect in every ethical way, does not justify continuing along the destructive path we are travelling.

Yes, I just looked up, and you're right, its not murder unless its a human killing another human.
Unnecessary killing, perhaps?

MissA The Oxford Dictionary defines murder as “the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another“
So ‘meat is murder’ is nonsensical, unless we’re talking about cannibalism, and even ‘eating meat is murder’ is inaccurate.

I hadn’t heard of that slogan, but perhaps it demonstrates that using emotive terms to get one’s message across is perhaps counterproductive, if all it serves to do is alienate those one might wish to influence.

Well, it is murder, so its the truth, as unpalatable (pardon the pun) as that is to us meat eaters.

Varian, how often have you asked vegans why some of them think their slogan "Meat is Murder" is perfectly acceptable?

Oh and yours too M0nica

Sounds like a great meal Varian and very sensible adults!

Exactly, Monica it's not that difficult to accommodate everyone without making any sort of fuss about it. It just needs a bit of thought and consideration.

I do not give a toss what people choose to eat or not eat, or the reasons they do it. I only ask that if they have any eating restrictions, including allergies, they let me know in advance so that I can cater appropriately.

We went away for a week this summer with 12 friends and family members. The party including 2 vegetarians and 2 people with serious allergies. We never even discussed the issue of catering for the vegetarians or allergists, let alone making a big deal about always having vegetarian food or excluding allergies.

I just made sure that everyone had a choice of dishes to meet their requirements at our buffet supper every evening. No problem, no diva-ish hissy fits, no virtue signalling. Just a meal we could all enjoy while chatting about what we had done during the day.

We had our vegan family here today. One of the children is extremely allergic to all dairy products, eggs and sesame, which was why the family all became vegans after she nearly died as a baby after going into anaphylactic shock when given cows milk formula. One of the parents has recently been diagnosed with celiac condition so has to have gluten free food. Not a fad, a medical need.

We also had other family members, some omnivores, some vegetarians and one who is on a slimming diet.

It was not difficult to feed them. The children had Linda Macartney vegetarian sausage rolls (which are OK for vegans) with plenty of veg. For the adults I made a chilli using soya mince, onions, garlic, fresh chillis, tinned tomatoes, tomato paste, veggie stock cube, soya sauce and tinned kidney beans which we had with plain boiled rice and salad. The slimmer skipped the rice and had lots of salad. Everyone seemed perfectly happy and no-one lectured anyone.