Changing ways. Permaculture here I come

I’ve found the cabbage white caterpillar can still penetrate tight cabbages like Hispi, savoy and others, similarly cavolo nero, mine are always netted. I buy a roll of debris netting, the holes are small enough to defeat the folded butterfly wings and it’s cheaper than most of the others.

I'm afraid I had to laugh at the concept of buying nettle seeds. Nettles are the bane of my life and I'm constantly trying to eliminate it from our horses' paddocks. They do eat it if we cut it down and leave it to dry out but I really don't want as much as we have, and it spreads like wildfire.

Perhaps I should go into business as a nettle seed and wild garlic supplier.

How do you make your nettle liquid?

karmalady

midgey

Be very wary of comfrey! I remember my mother having to use the lawn mower to try and control the stuff!

midgey, comfrey bocking 14 is not fertile and does not spread. I very highly recommend that variety. I grew it from 2010 and it was always well behaved and remained in its boundaries. I have a small patch in my house garden but not enough to plunder roots. Ebay is a good source. It is the most wonderful source of goodness for soil, better than cow or horse manure

I understand what you are saying, other comfreys seed like crazy, especially wild comfrey

Errr....I bought several comfrey plants. Changed my mind subsequently and dug them up. Result = I've still got comfrey plants and about twice as many as I had to start with at that.

So I'd say = once you've planted comfrey you've got it from then on inwards.....

Admits I wonder too re buying nettle seeds - as one can usually find some somewhere or other nearby.

NB; I recall trying out nettle pesto on a work colleague one time - and he looked distinctly dubious at the thought of it. But then promptly decided he liked it. I didn't think I'd like it myself - but I certainly do.

Me - I'd be interested to know how many square feet people plan on dedicating to growing food. As far as I can figure out 3 of 4' x 4' raised beds is deemed to grow a noticeable amount of food for one person. Cue for I've got a lot more than that and also grow straight into what earth there is in my garden (ie that's dedicated to fruit trees and shrubs basically). As time has gone on I'm moving in the direction of just plant whatever-I've-got in whatever-spare bit of space there is and it is all very much veering in the direction of permaculture.

Basically my heart sank when I realised just how many houses in the area I now live in have "concrete and tarmac" gardens - ie not "proper gardens". But where there's a will there's a way - and hence growing directly in what soil there is and plonking raised beds on top of much of that "concrete and tarmac".

This sounds an amazing project, I look forward to hearing how it progresses. I agree re the potatoes, I find them much easier when they are in containers, picking them is back breaking otherwise, and I always seem to miss a few.
I know nettles are good for the environment, but I’d never deliberately plant them myself, because I can’t get rid of the ones at the end of my garden, a bank which I’m now trying to grow shrubs on. They are so strong and hard to remove, nettle roots spread so many inches and when you try to take them out, little bits of roots sprout up again, they are the bane of my life.

Do be careful where you plant the nettles as they have an extensive root system and could get into your plot unless plated at a distance. Regarding Comfrey the blocker version is sterile and does not seed but if dug up the roots will regenerate wherever they go so make sure you have a permanent spot for it.

Wild garlic likes shaded wooded areas and I don’t think rhubarb leaves will give it the conditions it requires. I am trying to establish some in my small wood. The beauty of it is that by June it will have disappeared below ground so not bothered if it invades.

Yes I am very careful about where I put my comfrey bocking 14, it does indeed grow from a tiny portion of root. I have grown it for 15 years and it does not extend over its boundaries, they give me three cuts a year for my hotbins and the bumble bees go crazy for the flowers. I can put the leaves under soil in the beds too, they heat up and make lovely compost very quickly

So I have finished my outline plan of where the beds are, also shed, water, permanent plantings etc. I have taken 12 copies and will file them to use one every month. It is going to be hit and miss for a couple of years while I concentrate on cover crops and getting the goodness into the soil. I have very compacted clay all over the plot so I need raised beds to avoid walking on planting areas. First job is to concentrate on building good soil

The two comfrey beds, rhubarb bed and jerusalem artichoke bed are not raised but I put manure on and lifted the clay lightly, I edged them with lawn edging to keep the chippings on the paths. So far so good

midgey

Be very wary of comfrey! I remember my mother having to use the lawn mower to try and control the stuff!

What's that plant that is supposed to relieve headaches and joint pains?
Feverfew? It self-set everywhere, I had a job to get rid of it.

I am trying to persuade DH to use cardboard on the veg beds but he's not convinced.

You might like perennial cabbage, Karmalady? It grows fast, to a metre squared, and can be harvested regularly.

It needs protection from slugs and cabbage whites - netting etc. It propagates really easily - I just stick cuttings in glasses of water.

Whilst on perennial vegetables how about perennial kale? I have a couple of plants that keep me supplied throughout the winter, and the summer if I put butterfly netting over them. They keep on giving although they are not a long lived perennial and you need to take root cuttings or use layering every few years. If you are interested in perennial vegetables then Chris Smith of Pennard Plants, based in Somerset, is the expert.

Wild garlic came with someone’s throw out pots I was given containing fuchsias and other shrubs. Planted them in east facing open bank They have multiplied

I have ordered a few wild garlic plants and they will underplant in a small semi-shaded raspberry bed in my home garden. The autumn raspberries were only planted last year and had sawfly, which turned all the leaves into lace. I think the scent from the garlic will help. I am also going to put nasturtiums in to trail over the soil and help shade the wild garlic. I think I will empty one of my hotbins today and lay the compost on the raspberry bed. First I will hand weed the bed. That is my job for this morning

Woollywoman, I decided not to grow anything tall which needs covering to protect from cabbage whites or pigeons. The allotment site is very windy and plots get a lot of damage from the storms. I will be using low and stable covers, that I already trialed during the recent storms. Those particular nets did not move. They are only 0.8 m tall at maximum

karmalady

Yes I am very careful about where I put my comfrey bocking 14, it does indeed grow from a tiny portion of root. I have grown it for 15 years and it does not extend over its boundaries, they give me three cuts a year for my hotbins and the bumble bees go crazy for the flowers. I can put the leaves under soil in the beds too, they heat up and make lovely compost very quickly

So I have finished my outline plan of where the beds are, also shed, water, permanent plantings etc. I have taken 12 copies and will file them to use one every month. It is going to be hit and miss for a couple of years while I concentrate on cover crops and getting the goodness into the soil. I have very compacted clay all over the plot so I need raised beds to avoid walking on planting areas. First job is to concentrate on building good soil

The two comfrey beds, rhubarb bed and jerusalem artichoke bed are not raised but I put manure on and lifted the clay lightly, I edged them with lawn edging to keep the chippings on the paths. So far so good

Sounds very organised re the copy per month.

My sympathies re clay soil and I've had my struggles with having that myself. One of the first things I did was that I noticed there was barely literally any sign of life in my garden when I bought the house. Cue for literally everything got ripped up from the earth beds (ie basically what I call "old womans shrubs" - you can tell what I think of them from that).

I didn't even notice one solitary little earthworm!!!! Cue for I literally bought in some bags of earthworms and let them loose with a "There ya' go mates - get chomping and turning the earth" and I think that helped. Basically I've thrown pretty much everything I can at the soil to help break it down a bit and I think it's helped.

But yep....that's part of the reason why I've gone for raised beds - so that I can have a bit of the garden that's more "normal"/easy to work earth to plant in.

BTW - Have you come across Huw Richards? Check out his YouTube channel.

He's a young guy in West Wales that has been going from strength to strength over the few years I've been watching him.

He has changed his way of gardening over those years and for the last couple of years has gone down the permaculture line. His newest venture he has just gotten going is to sell more unusual and permaculture plants. Thankfully - as I've been "beating the drum" for some years now for a local supplier of such plants to become available and looks like we've got one now! He's pretty ambitious and determined and experimental in his outlook.

Don't know who else is in this area - but it's well-known here that the soil is clay. Hence why I was looking for someone permaculture-oriented/young/ambitious and in this area - as I thought it would certainly be best for someone like me with my way of gardening.

A few years ago my son, did all that as karmalady describes on his south London allotment. The Allotment association, demanded he remove, cardboard etc a sit lookeduntidy. No amount of explanation would shift their opinion. My son gave up that plot and luckily found another, though some distance away

Cariad, Huw Richards is amazing and speaks so much good sense. Two of his books arrived this week

I have a heated propagator arriving today, it was expensive and is top range with lights and plenty of space for taller plants. I need to organise my seed packets asap and start sowing. I do not have any space for this big propagator so it will stand on my dining table and I will have to try and find under-bed space for summer storage

I still have a scary area to complete on the plot, and have planted a few basic shrubs 3 cornus miracle, 4 fargesia rufa and 3 wiegela Bristol ruby. There is still plenty of space temporarily covered in builders black plastic. Those shrubs will not ever be invasive and maximum height is 2m.

That plastic is covering bramble, ground ivy and bindweed roots. My plan is to wait until drier weather, uncover a bit at a time and use my chillington digging hoe and canterbury fork to open up the clay surface to extract some nasty roots while causing only minimum damage to soil structure.

I am intending to plant bocking 14 in that area too as it is good for weed suppression. I may also plant more sedum ground cover, which I use at home instead of lawn. I need to cover that open soil with plants.

French marigold and borage seeds ordered, the bumble bees are very welcome on my site and I need to keep them happy.

JandJ, people will never agree when a site is ruled by old fashioned diehards. Good on your son for moving

You've reminded me - must check and see if I've got any French Marigold seeds. I've gathered they're a helpful idea and not to mention the only flowers I have at all in my garden are nasturtiums that I've finally managed to get sorted so that they come up yearly.

Exactly karmalady

A member of my group allotment has been offered 5 bags of goat manure and has just messaged to ask if she should accept it.

YES PLEASE!!

It’s very good for brassicas and as I’ve spent the last two years trying to improve the soil on our plot (making bio-char attracted a great deal of interest,) I look forward to seeing the results after it has continued rotting down in bags behind the shed.

My small conservatory always doubles up as a greenhouse at this time of the year as my two little plastic lean to ones are still too cold.

Warmer weather is forecasted! ☀️🌞🤞🤞

karmalady bluetits make short work of sawflies. They feed them to their young.

midgey

Be very wary of comfrey! I remember my mother having to use the lawn mower to try and control the stuff!

Yes, I agree - only grow comfrey in large tubs, never directly in the ground unless you want to be spending a lot of time grubbing it up for ever. The damnable stuff is more than persistent and adds a whole new meaning to the word "perennial"!
I burned mine off eventually, over the course of 3 years. I put in stinging nettles instead (to use for fertiliser - same soaking method as for comfrey) which had the added benefit of being loved by insects.

This sounds brilliant

I think I'm going to apply for a plot. You've convinced me. I have a greenhouse but not the space for much more as the dog needs the little grass we have. I am however, covering my front lawn with clover instead. It's infested in chafer grubs and seems pointless to have it if clover will thrive.

Remember when improving soil quality it is best to plant legumes as they have a long, deep root system and add nitrates direct to the soil

My green manure seeds should be arriving very soon, I cannot wait to get some beds filled with cover crops. I am going to start field beans at home, to get off to a quick start. I have lots of root trainers from the old days

I did my seed sorting last night and will need to keep my propagator in a spare bedroom. Tomato sowing today, they will be for home, not allotment ie halo on top of a bucket half full of a compost mix. I now have 15 strong 30 litre black buckets, I will need 11 for my potatoes, which I will keep at the allotment

I will be buying rocketgro for the first time this year, produced in somerset. I put old compost in each of my 3 compost bins, for stability and using that to mix with rocketgro will do fine for the buckets. In the meantime I need to hammer metal supports behind the bins, on the north side. The wind will take them if I don`t weight them down. I bought garantia thermo king 3 x 400 litre bins. as soon as I got the plot. I see a lot of rotted `bins` made from old pallets, not for me. I want easy non-rotting structures

I never intended to grow strawberries but will be growing a few on the plot on half a 1m sq bed, backed with borage. I have 50 ever bearers at home, in troughs but ground based, full sized plants will be better and I can cover with loose laid mesh. The borage will be buzzing with bees and easily self-seeds

My plan for the difficult remaining area is cardboard and ground mulch, I will need to spend money but time is not on my side. I will have plenty of mulch next year and a huge amount of mulch and compost from 2027.

I had half a bin of black gold from one of my small, at-home hotbins. Lots of worms in it, the comfrey is a fine addition to compost, heats up very fast. I have been shredding paper, added some to each home hotbin plus a bit of composted bark. I should be getting a first cut of comfrey in a matter of weeks, from the established home-bed and will fill up that empty bin as soon as possible

BTW I have never needed to grub up any bocking 14 comfrey in 15 years, it is all about planning carefully wrt planting positions. Forward thinking

Jane Judge, do that application, you can always say no when the time comes. Not forgetting that an allotment is a green gym and keeps us on the natural seasonal cycle

I met someone once who had been given a plot. She was disillusioned, from the SE and came to Somerset. She said how she imagined it was a bit of hoeing and sitting drinking tea with friends. She got over that and has worked hard, her mental and physical well-being are beneficiaries

People do get disillusioned when the sheer amount of hard work plus cost become realisation

I think you did it the right way round katmalady, doing the hard physical work in the winter months gets you off to a very good start. I don’t have an allotment, but do have a big garden, and over the last few years I’ve learned the lesson of not just being a fair weather gardener. Once things start growing it’s virtually impossible to keep up with the weeding on top of planting, tidying and harvesting if you haven’t done the groundwork.