Esther Rantzen on grandparents rights

I think Grandparents should not have rights to their grandchildren, they are not their child and the parents ultimately know what is best for their own child or children they after all know them better than anyone. If good relations can be maintained between parents and grandparents then that's great and obviously the best situation all round but if not grandparents should not be able to wade in armed with the law imho.

Penstemmon, I to have supported children i circumstances like you and it can be so distressing.
Also to see the manipulation that is clearly taking place causes life long damage to these children.

It is about the needs of the children.
Although there is a perception that this is mainly to do with separation/divorce and mostly Paternal grandparents, it isn't.
It is a small percentage, it involves alcohol and drug issues, bereavement,domestic abuse and family feuds.

It is hard. I once had to facilitate contact for a father at the scool where I worked and his child attended. All approved by mumand SW. However overtime the child said she did not want contact, not even letters from dad. I think it was clever manipulation by mum. Had no proof though.

Yes Penstemmon I totally agree that the should be some kind of monitoring to make sure that the parent with custody is playing by the rules and perhaps then the situation that Labouroflove and her son find themselves in could not be allowed to happen. Separating/ divorcing parents often do use their children as pawns which is cruel.

I think it would be entirely possible to set it up in law that grandparents' involvement in children's lives need to be considered when there are custody/ parental responsibility issues. I think too that the parent, who is awarded main carer responsibility, needs to be monitored to see that they are keeping to the agreed arrangements to benefit the children just as much as the 'visiting' parent in case they prove 'unreliable'. Any evidence of using children as pawns to score points has to be addressed. However I agree with others that 'policing' it will be tricky as it will require quite close monitoring by either SW/police/ Family support workers...all cost money.

Not quite the same but at the moment my Sis-i-L is making it v.difficult for me to see my nephews..she is pi**sed off with my brother... with some cause I might add.. but my other brother and I & our families are the only other close family the boys have. Seems wrong that her anger is making a sad situation even worse for the boys.

On the One-Show now.

I don't feel that I have any rights regarding my granddaughter. Like you gilly I was very involved in her life when she was small. She is almost 14 now so obviously she is growing up and spending more time with her friends which is natural, so we see less of her. We do see her regularly though and I would be devastated if anything happened to change that.

On the One Show tonight, a section re Grandparents being cut off from grandchildren.

That is terribly sad Labouroflove I can't even begin to imagine what your poor son and of course you too are going through. This is exactly the kind of vindictiveness I was talking about earlier and probably almost always it will be the father and paternal grandparents suffering at the hands of the mother who as you quite rightly say has all of the power as far as the child is concerned. Sadly what she is doing is depriving her child of her father and loving grandparents which is evil. Who does she think she is hurting in the long term? Why do the courts allow mothers to behave like this? Surely a father has equal rights by law.

I can only comment from my own current experience, my son was used to father a child without his consent and while believing his long term partner was taking precautions. He subsequently loved his daughter from the minute she was born, was a totally hands on dad and despite frequent displays of aggression and unbalanced behaviour towards him by the mother hung on to the relationship for his daughter's sake. After 18 months he was thrown out and since then has had his life made a living nightmare by a woman hell bent on causing as much pain as possible by using his access to their daughter as a tool for punishment. For any infringement of her 'rules', real or imagined, he loses access for anything from a week to a fortnight, his banishment of course extends to me even though as I live abroad I don't have the opportunity of seeing my GD very often. The last time I was in the UK, I was to take my GD (now nearly 3) out for the day before catching the ferry. When my son & I arrived to collect her, the door was firmly locked and the phone wasn't answered, after a few minutes we gave up and went away. Later on our way to the ferry port, he was phoned by his landlord saying that the police wanted to talk to him... Apparently his ex had phoned the police claiming that we were conspiring to abduct the child and take her abroad and this she had done the day before immediately after agreeing to us taking her out for the day. So what chance do we stand against malice like that? It is all going through the courts now but unfortunately from my perspective the law is still far too biased towards the mother regardless of her behaviour and whatever the court decides on there's nothing anyone can actually do to prevent her doing this time and time again. I grieve for my son as well as my own relationship with my GD and just pray this has no lasting bad effects on her.

In which case River the "unreliable" grandparent should not have "rights" to see the grandchild. I am glad you mentioned "vindictiveness" as I would guess that this is the main reason why grandparents lose contact with their grandchildren.

Of course not jane I did say "if a child only sees his or her grandparent once or twice a year then the loss will not be so great will it? The grandparent will feel the loss equally there is no doubt but it would be easier for the child to accept, however wrong it is".

The point I was trying (badly) to make was that the child would not have the same sense of loss not seeing someone that they very rarely see anyway, although the grandparent will undoubtedly feel the same way as any grandaprent who sees their grandchild every day!

I am not "arguing" from a particular viewpoint (infact not arguing at all really) I was just trying to say how cruel it would be to deny a child contact with someone who has helped to bring them up.

No jane in my post of 13.34 I make it clear that it is on the assumption that there had been a previously good relationship anyway.

If a mother (genuinely and not malicioulsy) distrusted her in-laws to look after her child then there would probably not have been a good/regular relationship anyway.

Having rights can also cause problems.

An old school friend's daughter was married to a bad egg who ended up in prison and the paternal grandmother went through the courts for contact and won regular access to the grandchild.

Fair enough you might say .... but the grandmother was extremely unreliable and on the days when she was supposed to see the child would often be late, not show, etc., and generally it was a fraught time for all.

Notwithstanding deliberate vindictiveness, there are two sides to every story of denying access to grandparents.

Or of course whose father distrusted his parents -in -law!
Thank you Hilda

Gilly I hope you don't mean that children who see their grandparents infrequently feel less loved by them, do you?

If you are going to argue from a particular viewpoint, ie that of a devoted, hands-on grandmother who spends a great deal of time looking after her grandchildren, perhaps we should think about another scenario.
What would be the position of a child after separation or divorce, for example whose mother distrusted her parents-in-law to look after her children properly, felt that the grandparents were rather distant etc and with whom the child wasn't particularly comfortable - should that child be forced to spend time with its grandparents if it genuinely didn't want to?

janeainsworth....I feel exactly like you do....glad to know its not just me!

Interested in how this works Lilygran as I would imagine it would be difficult (if not impossible) if one of the parents opposes the contact.

Yes I realise that jane of course I do and that is the point I am trying to make. If, for example a child sees his or her grandma/grandad every week or perhaps twice or three times a week every week then suddenly been told that they will never see them again would be terrible for them. If a child only sees his or her grandparent once or twice a year then the loss will not be so great will it? The grandparent will feel the loss equally there is no doubt but it would be easier for the child to accept, however wrong it is.

I don't think I am particularly unusual really. We are a small, close family and I do everything I can, when I can that's all. The "unusual" thing in my family (I would guess) is the five generations 98,73,52,34,8, (and 6 and 4)with me plop in the middle trying to look after both ends of the chain at once !

The French law is about the child's right to have access to its grandparents.

Gilly Lots of families don't live sufficiently close together to enjoy the kind of relationship that you have with your GCs. I think you are perhaps unusual in the amount you do for your GCs. Some grandparents have to be content with seeing their GCs once a year or less. There is still a bond there, though.

I realise that the idea of rights follows from the rights of parents to have access to their children following divorce or separation, I just question how far those rights should extend.

I'm just not comfortable with the idea that I should have rights over anyone, really.

Yes jane but how would they fight for their rights? How could a five year old say "I know I have the right to see my grandma and I demand to see her....." ? It would not happen would it? By the time the child was old enough to exercise their rights the contact/relationship would be gone forever.

I absolutely am thinking about the children and cannot imagine how they would feel given how much time they spend with me, it is part of their normality.

Gilly I know how much you do for your GCs and I'm sure when they're your age they will love you as much as you love your Grandma.
But what you have written, about how devastated they would be in the event of a separation, and how cruel it would be to them, supports Jess and Aka's view (and mine) that it should be grandchildren's rights, not grandparents.
You are thinking of the children, and not yourself, quite rightly.

Yes Aka all very well and good written in law but for the relationship to breakdown in the first place a certain length of time must have passed without any contact. The GP's would surely have to "use" the law as a child could not do it themsleves and presumably at least one of the parents (obviously the one with custody) would object by which time the grandparent/grandchild relationship is lost anyway. I think it is extremely cruel of any mother or father to deny their child a relationship with their grandparents (assuming there was one previously of course) and it is obvious that this is used as some kind of weapon to deliberately hurt the estranged parent/grandparents when realistically it is their own child they are hurting.

I meant in law Gilly. If it was enshrined in law that GC have the right to see grandparents then that would be a hook that alienated GPs could use in the Family Courts.