Out of Control 14 Year Old Granddaughter - HELP!

Take her to the doctor and get her a letter for CAMHS she needs to see a counsellor she is very unhappy

Well, this little madam has complete control over all the "adults" in her life, doesn't she? If ever there were a case for strict boundaries, this is it! She's obviously suffered as a result of the parents' split-up and my bet is that she's played off one parent against the other ever since - she's well used to getting her own way! I taught girls for years and, believe it or not, they need rules and guidelines, NOT parents who are "best buds" and too feeble and lazy to show them that there are consequences for their children's bad behaviour. Good grief, it's not rocket science. She needs to vent her anger - maybe with a counsellor - not family members who get as hysterical as she does - where are the adults?

Nude Jude one thing I am going to comment on is your need to blame their father you say how the girls have always been difficult because of his easy going manner with them but your daughters lack of strength sounds an even bigger problem and put them together and you can see why all three girls walk over them both
It's truely natural for you to defend your daughter so I m not critising you but your language makes your daughter sound very little, ineffective and vulnerable You described a laid back father who laughs things off and a weak mother who screams and cries in front of the perpetrator I think the new boyfriend however nice, is an added problem a shame he's not in his own house until all the family equations are sorted
The fact that your granddaughter has always been difficult really empasises the fact that mum and dads parenting techniques have probably never corresponded ( that's meant to be an observation not a critism ) and then this last year with mum and dad splitting and new boyfriend moving in it has pushed her over the edge and she probably feels the whole world is against her

I think you ve had a lot of really good points passed to you from a lot of people that have 'been there' in some way or another It is much more 'normal' or perhaps I should say common than most people realise, lastly remember that stress breeds stress the more people get worked up the more they will rev each other up

One of my DDs told me about the McClintock Effect - when women live together in a household their monthly cycles start to synchronise.

Another poster mentioned pmt - it could be that tensions rise in the household if there is more than one female who does get pmt at the same time and they all react more strongly to a certain trigger point.

carolmary I don't think any posters are accusing NudeJude or her DD of bad parenting - however, when a family is in a situation like this it is difficult to know the right way to proceed when emotions are running high.

Sometimes it takes someone with an objective viewpoint with no emotional involvement to be able to suggest a way forward and ways in which the parents may adopt different coping strategies to the ones which are obviously failing at the moment.

NudeJude I think everyone has your, your DD's and your DGD's best interests in mind in their posts.
As a mother, you are feeling protective towards your DD too but she isn't coping with this extremely stroppy teenager and she and her ex-husband will need to take a different approach; hopefully things will settle and calm down without having to resort to outside help.

Best wishes

I read your post with sadness to hear how you're all affected by your grandaughter's behaviour. We had very similar behaviour from our grandson ( younger than your grandaughter but with a similar background....parents split up, movement between two houses etc and we all thought it was either a reaction to the situation and possibly learned behaviour from parents arguing etc.
But then the school suggested possibly autism. That was a breakthrough. He finally has a diagnosis of high functioning autism (Aspergers) and ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, and our daughter has had fantastic support from an autism trained specialist who helped her learn strategies for dealing with meltdowns ( not tantrums), from the way she communicated during a meltdown to a weighted blanket ( rather than a hug which he dislikes). It has been a long hard journey and we've all learnt so much about how he thinks and his triggers.

Girls who have autistic traits do behave differently socially in many cases from boys, but the meltdowns are common. I'd strongly suggest talking to a doctor for advice and support. In the meantime there is lots online indicating autistic characteristics, but remember that each person with ASD is different and they don't all fit into a neat list.

I wish you all well. We know how exhausting and emotionally draining this sort of situation can be, but there is light at the end of the tunnel and we dearly love our aspie.

I also think that your daughter must agree some sort of plan with the new partner, gather the daughters together for a discussion or see them one by one for a discussion, and agree that what took place (ie the fighting and screaming) must not take place again because it has upset her, and you and probably others (I feel sorry for her neighbours as well.)

There has to be consequences and she has to think of what will affect the children to get them to think twice about causing trouble - eg imposing no pocket money, keeping child in when they want to go out with their friends, denying treats like holidays, confiscating mobile phones.

I've just re-read your post, and the child you slapped was not the one with the nits. Why on earth did her mother want her to wash her hair all over again ??????

I think you should definitely buy the child you slapped a box of chocolates and apologize for your own behaviour.

Your daughter seems to have no control over any of her children. Would advise her to read some books on simple parenting, before SOMEONE hearing all this hullaboo informs Social Services.

I've had nits as an adult, and they drove me crazy.They made me feel thoroughly wretched, disgusting, dirty, itchy and nasty. I felt I was fumigating myself when putting the shampoo on and only a nit comb helped. Is it perhaps this that is contributing to the problem? The teenager may feel awful.

I think you need to have a conversation with her, with some sympathy and empathy, not a situation where you end up slapping her.

Buy her a box of chocolates as an apology and apologise as well. No doubt she will tell everyone at school what happened.....

Please ignore comments about "bad parenting" most of us have no idea how to bring up our children when we embark on parenting, but we do the best we can. I think lots of us have allowed our children to rule the roost but with a bit of help you can often reset the rules and improve the situation. I would not leave your daughter to cope on her own: often grandparents can be helpful as they may be more relaxed than the poor parents! One of the posters mentioned autism. My eldest grandson has terrible tantrums, but in between is a lovely child. He has been diagnosed as autistic, which has at least given us an explanation for his behaviour and has allowed us all to put strategies into place to help. It could be possible that your GD is on the autistic spectrum. I would encourage your daughter to ask the school to refer you to the educational psychologist or mental health worker. They have proved quite helpful to my DD and SIL. If it's any help, my elder daughter was a terrible child but she got progressively better every year and ever since she became an adult, she has been lovely. She has learned that exercise and never allowing herself to get too hungry improve her moods.It might be a good idea to get her to have a medical check if possible. If your daughter's GP isn't helpful, she needs to ask her friends if they have a sympathetic GP and perhaps consider changing the practice she uses. Good luck!

Warn the other members of the family to leave so there are only the two of you.

Yes, and that should be the mother's role.

Although I think Granny could take the opportunity of a one-to-one to ask, very casually in the middle of a conversation about makeup or whatever, if everything is OK, how are things going, without making it too intense.

she really was crying for help and needed to know that someone loved her even at her worst.

I think that sums it up very well indeed.

About 2o years ago my sister in law, a single parent, was having similar problems with her two sons. Her social worker suggested the boys went into care for a few weeks, to give them a short sharp shock. It worked, they were really grateful to be allowed back home after a few weeks. I don't know if the threat of this would be enough to make the granddaughter wake up to her bad behaviour?

As a foster parent and ex teacher, I can sympathise. Pupils are free to shout at teachers without redress, apart from an interview with the head of department / year / school and this is absolutely no deterrent to the most difficult of them. I have had my head split open but that was really an accident though due to one of the most violent pupils. I found that the threat of a tickle was the most effective for boys who raised their fists to me - everyone around laughed and that defused the situation.

But your situation had got beyond that, I think. A hug is what is needed, she really was crying for help and needed to know that someone loved her even at her worst. The trouble is that everything becomes so emotionally charged that this is very difficult to achieve - of course you and your daughter love her but it's so difficult to sound convincing when everyone is shouting.

Warn the other members of the family to leave so there are only the two of you. You are more likely to succeed if there is no audience. Shut the door.

Hang on to all your emotional reserves, wait till she runs out of breath and then talk quietly. Repeat the process if she starts shouting again. Remain out of reach, sitting calmly if possible - these tantrums seldom result in attack if you are initially out of reach. It is a good sign that she stopped banging before breaking the glass in the door. She still has control even if it is at its limit.

If possible wait and wait, let her shout herself to exhaustion when she will collapse in tears - now is the hugging time. And only say you love her and that she has so many lovely attributes (Prepare a list now so you can muster several REAL talents - she will know if you make any up - past kindnesses, thoughtful acts, helpful advice, not school achievements.) and say you will always love her and reassure her that her problems are temporary, that she will be able to get through this difficult time and you will stand by her through the next few weeks as she adjusts. Then just listen and listen and listen - parents, sisters, school, lessons, bullying, health, nightmares, misery, depression....... When she has calmed down suggest you make a cup of tea / coffee / smoothee whatever her favourite is.

You should have a grasp of her problems by then and can provide words of wisdom and experience of crises and their resolution. Don't try to advise her before she has something in her stomach - it is calming - remember Peter Rabbit and the lettuces.

Good luck and gather your courage. Try to get your daughter to stand back and let you do this - she has been too worn down to be able to manage, I think. Tell her to take time to make herself calm (Concentrate on deep breaths OUT, they do help to remove carbon dioxide and prevent hyperventilation, calm panic and reduce anger.) and then to chaperone any audience out of the room appropriately and wait for your arrival if she is alone.

Always smile with love and say 'please' if you have a request and 'thank you' / favourite meal / etc. if there is a positive response, to avoid the charge of making 'demands' and also to give an element of choice. Meet refusal with something along the lines of 'I'm sorry, it would have been a help' and let it pass. You often find that compliance has been achieved after a delay with no comment or observation.

And hang on in there. Girls with these problems need to grow through their adolescence and I have never found a way to short cut the time. Without love and support it can be a very destructive period in their lives. Things WILL get better over time - look back in six months, not before.

I hope that helps - in spite of its length.

Good luck, I have my fingers crossed for you.

Oh my goodness. How frightening for all of you. My DD was very challenging all her life and still is on occassion. I learnt during her troubled teens to recognise the onset of a what could become an episode of serious aggression and developed a response of just putting my shoulders down, looking at her square on and laughing quietly at her. It always worked, sometimes she laughed too. But usually stomped off to her room. But I do think family centered counselling would be a very place to go. Good luck.

This family seems to have many problems at the moment and the girl is reacting in the only way she knows how.

Very often families were referred to Child Guidance because of a 'problem child' but were astonished to find that in fact the parents were part of the problem too and it can be difficult for some people to acknowledge that.

It does worry me that the OP said that this child reacted positively when she was given one to one attention (helping you do your makeup, NudeJude) but when she and her mother both over-reacted to a situation (the nits) she was the one pushed out of the house, becoming increasingly hysterical and eventually was slapped. Presumably the rest of the family plus mother's new partner and his sons were all indoors in her house, thinking what a terrible, nasty girl she is.
How she must have felt rejected.

The one-to-one situation does give a glimmer of hope that what this girl needs is some attention and negative attention is better than none at all.

Someone needs to give her a chance to articulate her feelings which are coming out in the wrong way. She probably does feel angry with her mother - who was responsible for the break-up of her parents? How long have the new boyfriend and his sons been on the scene? As someone else said - are they all living together?

It is a very traumatic time for her, added to normal teenage feelings, and she needs to be dealt with sensibly and sensitively. There is so much going on with this family, so many changes to deal with, and the parents (not the new boyfriend) need to think this through and work out a calm strategy to deal with it.

There could also, as someone else pointed out, be something else going on eg bullying at school.

I'm sorry Jude and ladies (and gents?) but I haven't had time to read all the posts on your thread. I just wanted to say, and it may have been said already, have CAMHS been asked to see your Granddaughter? We have problems with mine too and she has had sessions with a lady at CAMHS. The GP referred her and I have a feeling the school had something to do with it too. I'll read the replies later on and I'm sorry if I have repeated what someone else has said.

Some good advice here, but a word of caution about seeing a therapist as a family.

Our eldest went through a very difficult phase at around 14 - 16 years old and we were advised to go to a family therapist. The therapist, who charged an arm and a leg, proceeded to ask if any of us had had counselling before, so I mentioned that I had. This gave her the excuse to blame all my son's problems on me.

I refused to go again and we had to put up with his teenage tantrums until the age of 18, when he upped the ante and made threats to kill himself when his girlfriend dumped him.

It crossed our minds that he was just being manipulative and attention-seeking but we had to take the threats seriously and found a therapist who specialised in teenagers issues. When he went to university, we arranged CBT for him which helped a lot as one of his issues was low self-esteem.

It sounds like the mother is unable to handle the daughter and the daughter knows this. The mother won't be taken seriously if she lays down boundaries and can't stick to them.

Maybe her daughter is being bullied at school or on the internet. This needs checking out and if it's just about anger management, maybe finding a therapist for the daughter to go to will help.

NudeJude you have been given lots of advice but none of us really know what is going on with your GD. She might benefit from some counseling (although it's hard to find these days). She might simply improve as she gets older. All I can say is keep in mind the old adage "This too shall pass".

Very sorry Jude you find yourself in this awful situation. I had this problem with a 13 year old foster son, who would explode regularly for no apparent reason. Arguing back is not the answer ... ignoring them can calm the situation very quickly. They do it for control mostly and the more you argue back the better they like it. But if you don't respond, then there cannot be an argument. I used to say very calmly, I will speak to you when you calm down and not before, then I would leave the room. He couldn't handle that and would follow me round the house intimidating me, but what ever he did I did not respond to his behaviour and repeated that I would talk to him when he becomes calm. It worked. He wasn't getting the response he was after, so there was no further point fighting. It wasn't the desired result for him. Soon his behaviour changed and we were able to talk and the scenes lessened. Hope this helps. Good luck.

As with toddlers, reasoning with an out of control teenager is futile in mid tantrum. PLEASE phone social services- no they won't take your g/kids away but do say neither DD nor their dad can control them and they risk being sent into care (even if you won't that triggers the help)- as they have the right teams and tools to help (I was a social worker). Being a proverbial football between parents is awful and this rejection really won't help. If SS refuse for any reason look at Banardos etc as they might do similar. Unfortunately the inconsistency of boundaries have resulted in this behaviour and now everyone is suffering. Good luck!

Many thanks to those of you who have given constructive advice, I am truly grateful, and we will definitely be looking at the ideas put forward, and thanks in particular to those who have NOT commented on the mistakes made, after all, those of you who have never made a mistake have obviously never learned anything either.

In answer to one of your questions, the boyfriend's boys don't live with the girls, they only visit every other weekend and one night mid week. They are very well behaved children and have actually been reduced to tears by the behaviour of my daughter's children. Hence her boyfriend is obviously keen to try to get this situation under control for everyone's sake.

My daughter and her new partner did make the mistake of moving in together far too soon for the children, and unfortunately we all know that this was a mistake now, but we have to try to move forward, and that's what I was hoping for help to do by requesting advice here.

The boys and neighbour's child were not in the room when it all kicked off, but of course heard it all.

In response to MargaretX - I did try hugging her as you would a smaller child, but unfortunately that didn't work either, just made her more angry.

Maybe I didn't make it clear in my first post, but the child in question has ALWAYS had these fierce temper tantrums, and I honestly don't think that the marriage breakdown has made it worse, it's just that she's been allowed to get away with it by her Father from square one. Even after it all blew up, and I'd explained to him on the phone what had happened, he turned up and treated it all like it was a big joke. He will NOT change the way that he treats the girls, and can no more handle the child than her mother, in fact when it is his weekend to have the girls the child in question often refuses to go, and I'm sad to say that the two eldest girls refused to even go out for dinner with him for his 40th birthday, he just shrugged it off, even though it must have hurt like hell.

With regard to the new man involved, he is actually very good with the children, and when they are in 'normal' mode, they all like him and want to share things with him, in fact the child in question will often tell him things that she won't tell her Mum, so he's obviously not such a great part of the problem, although as one poster said, does suffer the inevitable 'you're not my dad' syndrome.

Rather than pour your heart out to a lot of anonymous people, who will give you "advice" across the spectrum, consult a professional psychologist regarding anger issues and how to manage them.

radicalnan - how I do agree with you about the loss of youth workers and youth centres. I used to run arts outreach projects at youth centres and I could see that the centres were a lifeline for many troubled young people.

No hope of the government thinking in terms of prevention - if you cannot show concrete measurable results then that service is crossed off the list. The sort of benefits that accrue from youth centres are not easily measurable, so down the pan they go.

Jude - I hope that some of the ideas and suggestions on here will help your troubled family. Good luck with it all.

Easy to say keep calm, don't engage, talk quietly etc but WAY harder to actually do when you are in a situation where conflict is relentless and possibly dangerous. I knew someone who's daughter actually smashed her way through an internal door in a rage when the mother was doing all the right things. People react eventually when the pressure gets too much.
With the break up of the marriage, new partners and teenage hormones this poor child needs outside help and I believe the school is a place to start as they have access to educational psychologists, the GP might also be able to help.