Grandchildren not sleeping

Solitaire I wish I'd known about bananas when DD was small, I would have given her half a dozen before bed-time.

She was not a good sleeper, I dreaded No 2's arrival but he was a great sleeper from birth.

PS - I don't recommend giving a child six bananas btw - it was a JOKE.

One is plenty.

My youngest grandchild fought tooth and nail about bedtimes and then would wake up in the morning very early demanding attention. Her parents consistently took her to bed at 7.pm , sat in the room whilst she screamed and yelled. They kept putting her back into bed without shouting, just repeating that it was bedtime. Same in the morning when she woke up demanding attention very early in the morning and having a tantrum when told she could just have a cuddle in bed or go and play quietly, her choice. It took three weeks of consistency, but they won!!

Some children need a nap after coming home from school. Maybe half an hour?
This should put the bedtime back a bit.

At least with the five year old, the whole issue can be talked through! A bedtime story or two is a great way to lead into sleep. Probably the 5 year old is exhausted also and may also be anxious after stimulating days at school.

I had my daughter to stay once with her 4 year old who wouldn't relax into sleep. She was getting cross and he was getting hyperactive. I took over, put him into his sleeping room with low light, talked quietly to him and rubbed his back gently. He went out like a light. She was so surprised!

JALIMA,very interesting about the foods, thank you. X

It does seem phenomenally early for a child to go to sleep at 5pm on some evenings - how long exactly is the child expected to sleep having gone to bed at that time? Ten hours would only take it to 3 am. Surely, to play some games, take the child out to walk around the shops/streets or generally keep it awake fora couple more hours at least would help to get a proper 'night and day' routine established. It's absolute hell trying to function and keep yourself awake when you haven't had sleep - how I sympathise!

My dd was having trouble with her own dd, and my sister (younger than I am and had her only one relatively late) highly recommended 'Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems' by Richard Ferber. She said she wished she'd had it much earlier, since her dd had been a terrible sleeper.

However, as always, the parents have to be prepared to tough it out for a few days and not give in. And that can be very hard, especially when you are dog tired anyway.
However the book is an extremely interesting read, with various real life case studies.

Skin to skin is a medical treatment used with premature babies as it is medically proven to improve the outcomes for these babies.

Skin to skin is also proven to help a mothers breast milk supply when there is difficulty.

What you're thinking of is attatchment parenting which is completely different

7pm is more realistic for a 5 year old, can your daughter get the younger child settled in bed so that she can spend half an hour before bedtime with her 5 year old? A nice warm bath followed by a bedtime story should help - if he gets half an hour of her time it may well be enough to settle him into a routine. I used to leave a glass of water and a biscuit on a child's table in my daughter's room 'in case I wake up hungry Mummy'. Most mornings it was untouched

My one year old Grandson wakes up four or five times a night. Of course, his mum is exhausted.

When i look after him, he won't go down for his naps and cries constantly. We try going in and laying him down gently but he just cries and gets himself in a state.
It can be quite distressing.

I know he is exhausted, but he he won't give in and fights going to sleep.
Daughter thinks it's separation anxiety. She is probably right.
Reading some of the posts on the subject, it seems that this problem could go on for a few years.

A good idea is to go through a checklist, asking the child if they've been to the toilet, had a drink ( or leave one at their bedside) , had their last story, their last cuddle, or any other ploys they may use!
You do need to make it clear that you'll just keep putting them back into bed ( no chat or eye contact), and be prepared for a bumpy ride!
A reward chart with a sticker for every night they stay in bed could also be an idea.

Everthankful, I just can't agree, all kids are different, all 4 of mine were in their own rooms from the day they came home from hospital, every one of them a good sleeper, I had a total of 15 weeks between them for not sleeping through the night. No nightlights and no doors open and no problems. As I said, they are all different.

Agree that 5pm is too early. I have the feeling that some kids are just early risers and you have to adapt a little to make your own life more bearable ie get yourself to bed a bit earlier. I had an 'early bird' and tried all sorts of things unsuccessfully until a wise friend pointed out that there's a reason CBeebies starts at 5.45am! She grew into a 7am routine at about age 7 and we all survived.

If DGD2 had even a power nap of 5 minutes from the age of 2 and a half she would be bouncing around until about 9.30 pm! Lots of loud singing accompanied by clapping sometimes did the trick in keeping her awake in the car going home (DH would be driving, not me!).
'What's the story in Balamory' etc - irritating enough to wake her up!

It may take some doing, but he will be tired at the end of the school day if he's been up since 5 am. So they may have to gradually extend bed-time perhaps by 15 - 30 minutes each day. If they can get his waking up time extended to 6.30 or 7 am he should be able to make it through until 7 - 7.30 pm at age 5 without a nap.

None of ours had a nap after the age of about 2 and a half under normal circumstances.

I mentioned this when talking to DIL today... if the 5 year old is at school till 3pm-ish, then he's not getting a nap. THEREFORE, as he's up so early, he's getting tired by end of school day, so he perhaps is ready to go down at 5pm. Sort of a vicious cycle and he's on the wrong time-table maybe?

How about giving him a 'power nap' right after school, eg 30-40 mins if he's tired. Don't let him sleep on ...wake him for play, dinner, bath, etc. then bed about 7-7.30pm per others' suggestions. Then he'd be up hopefully at a reasonable time and refreshed for school and then not be so tired when he comes home as he wasn't up so early.

Dog chasing tail comes to mind... it must be very difficult for her!

Solitaire re the banana:
Bananas Are practically a sleeping pill in a peel. They contain tryptophan, B vitamins and the muscle relaxants magnesium and potassium
www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/lifestyle/bedroom-ideas/11681583/foods-for-falling-sleep.html

My daughter bought 4 year old granddaughter a clock on the internet. it shows when it is ok to get up when the hands reach the sunshine. If it's still showing the moon my granddaughter has to stay in her room. She is allowed to play quietly or look at a book.
Yes, that's the one inishowen, the Gro-clock (in my link in post above), it shows the moon and then when the sun comes up (at a time set by the parents!) they are allowed to get up. It makes them feel quite grown-up too, as they think they're in control (even if they are not!).

It is certainly NOT recommended for babies to sleep 'skin to skin' with mothers during the night as this increases the risk of SIDS.

The recommendation from the Lullaby Trust (formerly the Foundation for Research in Sudden Infant Death) is that they sleep in the same room, in an appropriate 'cot' until 6 months.

Everthankful I disagree with you about putting babies in their own room straight away, my DD was put in her cot, but to start with in her carrycot (do Parents still use them?), then just in cot until she was old enough for a bed. Not allowed in our bed but if she was having difficulty sleeping I would sit quietly with her until she went back to sleep. Maybe I was lucky

DD had a clock for DGS & that really helped, he knew he hadn't to get up until Mr Sun said it was time. He is only allowed in DD's bed if he's ill

I hope those of you struggling find some way of getting through the problems & I do agree 5.00 is way too early for a 5 year old to go to bed, 7.00 is a reasonable time

Well I broke all the rules! All of my DSs slept badly and I could never leave them to cry, having vivid memories of having nightmares and being told, about age 5, that I had to"get over it" and not go in my parent's bed. I still remember lying awake terrified, unable to move and not daring to shout. My DSs finished up in my bed most nights. I didn't care where they slept just as long as they slept!
Your DD has my sympathy and there are some great ideas here. MY GD has a clock with a sun on it. Both my GCs have nightlights in their rooms. 2 year olds changes pattern.

7pm bedtime is more reasonable if you want them to stay in bed longer. Can your daughter get the little one to bed so that she can spend half an hour with her older child? If she can and makes a routine of no tv or computer games after 6pm, a small glass of milk and a biscuit for supper followed by a warm bath and then a bedtime story and cuddles with Mum until 7pm he may well settle down and sleep better.. My daughter used to get up at 5 am until I tried this, she also asked 'what if I am hungry when I wake up' - I sorted that one by leaving a cup of water and a plain biscuit on her bedside table - most days it was untouched

Nobody ever said raising children would be easy. Routine and determination works. Set boundaries, once in bedroom you are there for the night. Return wanderers without holding a conversation, might mean many trips in the first few nights. Some of the mothers I know appear to be afraid of upsetting DC by laying down the law, carry on allowing them to have their own way and you will create a monster.

5pm is much too early. I would suggest keeping the child up later with some strict time scales, a good calming bedtime routine and rewards for complying.
If you have seen any of those TV Nanny type programs getting the children into proper sleep pattern in their own beds takes a lot of calm determination.
They just repeatedly keep returning the child back into it's bed until it stays there. This is likely to need reinforcing when ever the child decides it's worth pushing the boundaries to see what happens. Then it gets disrupted by a poorly child or teething babies need some cuddling, but you just have to go back and start again.

I agree with most GN-ers that 5.00pm is not a natural bedtime, although Manxgirl also mentions 6.30pm-7.00pm which seems seems more suitable. The little chap would then likely sleep on for an hour or two in the morning and the parents could go to bed more in sync with the children.

My DD2 took to - in my old eyes - pampering her awake-in-the-night son. If he awoke at say, 3.00am, he would be offered a banana and stroked back to sleep. This then became the norm until he was almost four and a bit.

I love my children but we did stick to the bath, book, bed routine, at more or less the same time (7.00pm) and they slept through. Unless we thought they were ill, we ignored any mid-night murmurs.

Children will 'try it on' which may be because a child feel insecure but more likely, it is a battle of wills and having a parent mid-night is the ultimate prize.

I actually speak from experience. I am ashamed now to admit that as a more or less permanently sick child, I can remember making my parents - I usually wanted my father - come in to see me when I was awake during the night. When, snuggled up on my father's chest and he fell asleep, I would wake him up again! Horrible brat that I was! If Daddy, you are sitting on a cloud, reading this, I am sorry!

The clocks mentioned sound wonderful, I was not aware of them or would have bought one to help my poor beleaguered daughter and husband. Now their son is fine and sleeps through so there is light at the end of the tunnel.

All good suggestions - the clock sounds brilliant.

The crux of the matter is that the parents must be firm (but kind) - you must go to bed means you must go to bed and nothing else! I know it is hard. Routines, rituals, regular appropriate bedtime.

I guess your problem is that they do not want to talk about it, so, in spite of all this excellent advice, you may not be able to put it into action!

But you could buy the clock for Christmas - now you are such a big boy Santa/I have bought you this special clock!

I wonder if it's down to this new method by midwives called skin to skin. The babe from day one stays close to mum, day and night and then when they reach a year old and parents decide enough is enough and try to put them in the cot all hell erupts and the parents wonder why :-)