Toilet training problems

I would definitely want a medical check-up to see if here is any reason for a child of 4 seemingly not wishing to use the toilet. Can remember one of my youngest (and I thought I was well experienced by then), having dreadful problems, crying every time I tried to put her on the potty. Turned out she had a real nasty painful UTI. I should have caught it much earlier, but was so taken up with looking at 'pyschological' problems.
One of my g.daughters could never get clean. She would lie about it, even when we could all smell it - this was when she school age. Turned out she has some sort of syndrome which means that the nerve endings around the anus just do not operate properly to inform her when she needs to have a bowel movement. After several years of different types of treatment, she is now in her teens and has to give herself a 'washout' every other day which is dealing with this.
So, before looking at all sorts of emotional problems, do get the child checked out properly medically.

I accept that a lot has changed in toilet training children over the years but I'd guess much of it for the better. 50 years ago I remember a little 8 year old who was still wetting his bed and was forced to wash his own sheets and hang them out in front of other children as a punishment. Years later, I remember children having accidents being called dirty and disgusting. I still think about that little boy and wonder at the damage done to him

It is a really individual thing and whether disposables were used or not doesn't need to be a factor. My daughter was potty trained before she turned 2 but then I knew she was ready. I agree with pressure making things potentially worse and I believe UTIs can be a big factor making it more difficult.
Stickers are a great idea, I used the cheapest £1 Morrisons potty but every time my daughter used it, she got to choose a sticker to stick on the potty. She loved to pick them and then show the family, all the colourful stickers she had accumulated, after a while she wasnt even bothered about getting stickers any more it was such a regular occurance.
There is a lot going on in your GDs life, so best of luck.

What a pity the news about your daughter isn't more positive. Pain is so demoralising and must make it very hard with a young child. It's so easy for children to get the idea that everything that goes wrong whether it's wet knickers or Mummy being ill. I'm sure taking the pressure off is the way to go.

Thanks for coming back - lots of positives - I'm sure it will soon be fine - sorry about your dd though

Many thanks to all suggestions and advice. DD is going to contact ERIC - she has already googled it and is planning to phone asap. GP - you can't get an appointment for love nor money at their awful surgery (a problem in the area as one was closed down and another has closed its doors to new patients). One month in advance unless you are willing and able to queue from 8am for a same-day appointment. Not easy with a disability!

DGD has had three UTIs since Easter. Each time she's been prescribed trimethoprim (a pretty useless antibiotic and hasn't worked for DD's UTIs for years). Suspect that DGD has inherited the family tendency to get them and that might well be a factor. DD, her partner and grandparents all do their best to encourage DGD to drink more and wee more but she is resistant to both when she's feeling stubborn. DD is rigorous in following good preventative hygiene practices with her daughter, wiping from front to back and so on; also interestingly DGD is fine at night, wakes up to go to the toilet and is dry at night. She doesn't soil herself at all.

Nappies had been suggested in desperation but DGD was very upset at the idea so it wasn't pursued. She wants to wear pants and is proud of them (she chose her own). At our house we have two potties and a pink loo seat. Her mum and dad have a portable potty in the car for travelling.

Backing off from pressure sounds like an excellent course of action - praise when she goes to the loo and no fuss if she has an accident, so her mum and dad are trying hard to be consistent on that one.
DD had another blow today as a hospital visit with the surgeon was less than positive. She had so hoped that a solution to her severe pain could be on the cards, but there was only the option of MORE surgery or drugs which can only be prescribed after referral to a pain clinic (which will take ages). No reassurance that things could improve long term, which is really difficult for them all.

We had DGD for the day while they were at the hospital and she did really well potty wise. I showed her the potty while she was playing and said she could use if when she felt she needed to and if she did, she could choose a sparkly sticker. I then went out of the room. A short while later I returned to see if she was OK, to find she had used the potty. Much praise and a pretty sticker to adorn her top. By the end of the afternoon there were 4 stickers. I am pleased, but well aware that this is at our house and not her own home, so a different ball game.

I'll try out some more of the suggestions here and talk to DD about them too. Thank you all again :-)

I think the cause of late toilet training is the fact children are seldom wet and uncomfortable. I have seen pull ups that allow the child to feel damp, perhaps they might be the answer, they were available in a large supermarket and made by a famous brand.

DGS was comparatively slower than the norm in his development and was diagnosed as autistic at 3 years old. His parents were worried about toilet training but we all encouraged him to use the potty/special toilet seat before we went out, before he went to bed, when he got up etc before putting disposable nappies/pull ups on him. We never demanded he use the toilet - it was always a case of 'I'm going before I go out, do you want to?' We also made sure he had plenty to drink during the day but reduced the amount after his evening meal. All of a sudden he became dry and, at nearly 8 years old, has only had one weeing accident since. Unfortunately he also had one pooing accident at school but we think that was more to do with what he had for lunch that day as he doesn't like to 'go' at school and is quite a fussy eater!

Where on earth did that come from? Day nurseries have always accepted children of any age and they didn't need to be 'toilet trained'. Play schools (remember those) accepted 2and 1/2 year olds, supposedly if they were toilet trained, but as they only ran from 9.15or 30 to 12, it was possible to say the child kept having accidents! Nursery classes attached to schools usually accepted children the year before they went to school, so 3+ or 4

One of the causes of this late toilet training is due to the fact that nurseries now take children aged 3 without being toilet trained. At one time state nurseries didn't accept children if they weren't. Quite a retrograde step in my opinion.
I understand if there is a medical reason, but, there are a lot of parents who just leave it late and don't get on with it.

My DGD was very much the same. She is now 4 1/2. I bought a 'Potette' potty which is portable and has disposable bags, that fit over the frame with a moisture trap on the bottom - so they bag can be tied up and disposed of like a nappy. But here's the thing: on the moisture trap is a picture of a frog and DGD thought it was wonderful to pee on the frog. From there it wasn't too difficult to persuade her to use the toilet with the potette (without bag) fitted over or under the seat just like normal adapters. The great thing is that it can be folded and taken on outings say to the beach where it's easy for kiddies to be caught short, or where there is a long trek to public toilets. It might just work for your DGD. Gook luck.

Good point about feeling uncomfortable.
Eldest daughter was born in Singapore, and she was the quickest to learn. Wearing thick nappies led to nappy rash so I bought lots of towelling knickers. There were no carpets (too hot) so she ran around and noticed at once when fluid was coming out of her. She eventually learnt to control it.
Same with no. 2s

My GD had similar problems. I do think that they pick up on parental anxiety and that makes things worse. The more relaxed you can all be about the whole thing the better. I did find that 'taking over' toilet responsibilities when I was with them helped. I usually said I had to go because I was getting old and would she come with me. Then wherever we were I made a bit of an occasion of it, always took my handbag, used loos, washed hands, brushed hair, admired ourselves in the mirrors and added new lipstick or perfume. I think the whole routine made it less of an issue. Trouble is now she is older but if we are out anywhere we still have to go to the loo together!

I agree with GoldenAge. In the age of using terry nappies potty training took place at a much younger age as a wet nappy was not very comfortable to have on. Also washing terry nappies was mostly done by using a solution of Nappisan (soaking in a bucket) or boiling them, and then rinsing and drying on an outside line. It also encouraged mother's to toilet train their children much younger as this was very time consuming and not always easy to get dry .....often finishing them off on a clothes horse indoors if they hadn't dried sufficiently outside. No mod cons like tumble drier. I am always surprised when I hear how late children are now potty/toilet trained it seems to becoming the norm and I guess modern nappies play a big part in this.

Hi Rowantree - the age at which children are potty-trained these days is higher than in our day - true - why? simple, it's because in our day we used Terry towelling nappies, and no end of magic liners was able to stop the urine reaching the nappy and making the child feel uncomfortable. Nowadays they all wear pampers or equivalent, and when the kids wee they don't feel wet. It's all made too easy for them. Two of my grandkids (8 and 10) were potty-trained at 18 months old and this is down entirely to them being in Terry nappies and having the right motivation to go to the toilet. Another grandchild is almost 3 and refuses to become potty trained - she's become totally lazy because of the pampers. Incidentally if you don't know there is an Academy of Potty Training - worth a google.

I saw on a nanny fixes all type tv programme, a special loo seat for a child who refused to use a potty. Child involved in buying of new seat which was pretty, flowers butterflies etc. Seemed to work.

My DD stated school when 4years old, and scarcely a day went by when she didn't come home with her panties in a plastic bag. She was very nervous, poor wee soul, but the school were very kind and positive about it. They had stacks of spare clothing for the reception children, and it was a very common problem.
What amazed me was the almost all the little ones got over their problems by the next term. I would say it's wise to seek medical advice if you think there is a physical problem, but otherwise make as little fuss as possible, and offer constant reassurance.

P.S
Your daughter should call her Health Visitor who can help or she may have a nursery nurse in her team who can.

She is 4 next week, many children of this age are not toilet trained so no need to panic. Yes your daughters health problems may well be a contributing factor but as I said it is not unusual for a child of this age not to be trained and I doubt if a continence clinic is needed yet.

Many children don't want to stop what they are doing to go to the toilet. Going in a strange toilet is scary. Does she have a step to put her feet on whilst sitting on the toilet. Take the stress out of the situation and continue with the star chart. Pull ups have there place but it feels like they have a nappy on so no need to go to the toilet. If they have a garden let her play outside without any pants. That makes them aware of when they are wetting and they don't like it running down their legs,

Is it only wetting or does she soil? Many children go and hide and soil somewhere like behind a chair or will only do it when they have a nappy on.

If she is 4 next week and starts school in September she is going to be one of the youngest in the class. This time factor is another stressor. I am sure your daughter with her health problems needs her to take up her school place. Could she continue at a nursery school for another term and would the school keep a place for her if she did this? The school must be use to wetting when taking children so young,

Many schools only started taking children at 4 when the government made funding available to parents for free nursery places and the school could use this funding to set up classes for 4 year olds, compulsory schooling is only from 5. Your daughter and her partner can choose what is the best place for her their daughter.

On a positive note with all the help from gransnetters the problem hopefully will be solved by the end of the holiday.

For what it's worth, which is not much...
I was out with nearly 8 year old DGC recently. When asked directly about toilet, child repeatedly said no need.
When I announced I needed the toilet and the child MUST come with me because couldn't be left outside, usage followed with no conversation.
Good luck.

rowantree Can I suggest you look at the ERIC website. This is a wonderful charity which deals with Eneurisis (wetting) and Encopresis (soiling) in children. Please do have a look. It will give you all the help you need and with these little ones it's better to start Eric's regime sooner rather than later. GPs, health visitors, etc are sadly not up to speed with these problems as it's relatively uncommon. Wishing you all the best of luck x

inishowen "No child wants to wet themselves at school" but unfortunately if there is something wrong, it can and does happen, as I've posted above concerning my friend's 8 year old granddaughter. She has said to my friend "Nana, the others laugh at me" but still she goes on wetting herself and they can only assume while waiting for test results that she can't control it. Goodness knows how much emotional damage is being done in the meantime. Imo first port of call is the GP.

My granddaughter was just the same. However she started school last September and only had one accident. We were always very quick to change her pants when she had an accident at home, but maybe she should have let her experience the discomfort of wet pants. All I can say is, they grow out of it. No child wants to wet themselves at school.

The reason I suggested pull ups is that it would give the little moppet the opportunity to use the potty/toilet independently if she wanted to but would keep her comfortable if she didn't and allow the adults to relax re any accidents.

I agree with maryeliza I think this whole situation is getting far too pressured. Her mother's problems must have been very unsettling for her and this is something she has control over. If it hadn't been potty training it would probably have been food. I would drop the whole thing, put her back in nappies and everyone relax. GS2 wasn't trained till he was 4 1/2 and we all survived.