How to Handle Rude and Unruly Grandchildren

I have two adult children and 3 grandchildren now. My children are a son and daughter. The son is rude and my daughter is obstinate. Both are married. They and their partners; are invariably disrepectful of me and my home and my rules which has resulted in them rarely coming to my home now and when they do it is almost always horrendous for me.
Your unruly four and seven year old granddaughters need bringing in line pronto because behaving as they are at that age is enormously worrying as you show in what you post. I suspect their parents will show unwillingness to discuss with you bringing them into line. Neither who will do that.
I believe counselling is unlikely to stop bad behaviour in four and seven year olds. It (counselling) may arm the granddaughters with a worsened bad attitude/excuses to give to those who challenge their bad behaviour. I expect what the granddaughters do is not the worst part for you? It is how they respond when they are challenged about their behaviour.
The parents should be parenting and clearly they haven't been and aren't. Rather they have chosen to 'address' the problem by spending money on a counsellor. Perhaps the two girls have had too much money spent on them and not sufficient direct parenting from their parents. Could that have been the cause of the development of the bad behaviour in the first instance? Therefore attemptting to remedy it by paying an outsider who will probably never witness the bad behaviour nor ever have it directed at themselves is unlikely I would think to bring a marked and sustained improvement in their behaviour.
As their grandparent it is difficult for you. It may be that without the backing of the children's parents all that you realistically can do is to set non-negotiable rules on what behaviour is allowed in your home or when the grandchildren are left in your care whether in your home or away from it. State what the 'impositions'/consequences will be if they break the rules. Maybe explaining why the rules have been made could reinforce the likelihood of things improving. You know the two girls.

If you feel it is too late for that then you should without hesitation stop having the children AND their parents in your home. Instead only seeing them in places other than their or your homes. It may not be necessary to say that to the parents or the grandchildren but you know the situation in more detail and can decide what the finer points should be and adjust as and when needed.

Personally I’d take your husband’s advice.

Migraines are awful hope the medication kicks in and you feel better soon.

Bibbity OOOO Sooo sorry will plead migraine

yesterday I knew this!
today I was trying to make it read an abbreviation for GCSEs or exams similar!
I really do apologise. profusely. on bended knee. abased. (is that lying flat?)

the hour has come and i can take more migraine sumatriptan. maybe my brain will return. will lie down now.

thanks!

BradfordLass72 you are right! sorry about lack of caps btw.
the many child care progs on tv e.g. super nanny made it clear that house rules are essential and keeping them must be consistent. rewards are the best way, ping pong balls in a jar for example. when full jar child chooses the treat.
a regime of this sort would be great but the children's home life may undo it. OP is in difficult position but worth trying. do not withdraw love and never compare with other children esp those good ones who get to stay over. no wonder these two say they want to go home! defence for being rejected from overnight stay? need to explain very calmly why overnight impossible with the behaviours performed. not because granny and gdad don't love them and want them, just impossible to have ,,,, (describe actual behaviours calmly). ... in house at night.

sorry about my abbreviations etc - migraine

“I am the mother of 4 grown children and grandmother of 10 grandchildren ranging in age from 4 to 22 years of age.“

It’s the first line of the original post x

trisher. You said:
"Cynthi013 my goodness 10 GCs!" which is at the bottom of page 2. I can't find where Cynthia has referred to 10GCs or similar. How did you get this reference? I'm not criticising, I just get bothered when I can't find things. I should say I'm
having a migrainous day whereby black marks and lines jump about so the screen is hard to read.

Cynthi013 my goodness 10 GCs! I wonder are these two the youngest? if so perhaps they have decided that the way to make their mark in the family is by being the worst behaved. I think you have to decide how much you want to be involved in the lives of these children. It will take time and effort to change their behaviour and you may do best to listen to your DH and leave them for the moment.

Children of this age (4 & 7) don't have the vocabulary or thinking ability to be able to articulate their worries and fears. In fact many adults don't either.

So if - and I say "if" only as a possibility, your dil is expecting too much of these gifted, leaders, they don't know how to tell her they just want to be babies still.

At 7 and certainly at 4, they need lots of love and understanding and to be their age .
My elder son was not a cuddler at all but responded to constructive rules.
Perhaps they're not getting what they need from a Mum in denial?

If Mum is also excusing this bad behaviour as the work of geniuses - these children will feel unsafe. Children and young people push the boundaries hoping you'll stop them and form some sort of strong, protective arm.
After all, if they can wind a parent round their little finger, that's a sign of a 'weak' adult

Time and again it has been proven that troubled children respond well to kindness with strength, rather than an 'anything goes' policy because there are no limits in the latter - and that's scary for children.

If you cannot carry out this policy effectively - and who would blame you if you're just too weary of it all - then take your husband's advice and pull back for a while.

This is so tricky. I have a neighbour who chickens out of correcting his son, who spoilt my grandsons party. The boy is 7, and in the last year has gone from being a lively but normal kid to being insolent to both parents. I had a hard job keeping my temper. The next time he came round, he nicked a banana from my fruit bowl and started eating it in front of me, daring me with an insolent expression to say anything. I told him he couldn't have it, and that he was to ask and say please if he wanted anything. When his parents were out of earshot I told him he wouldn't be welcome in my house if he ever did that again. His parents were clearly embarrassed, but did little more than Tut tut and apologise to me. I was embarrassed for them that they couldn't seem to see the seriousness of his act. Children must learn right and wrong.

I agree that being gifted is no excuse, in fact when I was in teaching my brightest kids were often the nicest! I have two children on the autism spectrum and where possible we never made excuses for their behaviour, and expected them to behave in public and at home.

Having a big row won't solve anything, but the advice "my house, my rules" is absolutely spot on. You don't have to be belligerent about it, just firm and clear. I also agree that meetings in public are best. No sleepovers until they can behave like civilised children.

Cynthi013...my daughter is a child counsellor /psychologist and deals with excluded children and their ‘problems’ in her day to day job...All ages from 5-18.... she’s says just one thing to me about these children...”see and listen to the child and you’ll know the parents”. In her last job she had 20 individual children that she was counselling in an attempt to get the school to NOT exclude them. In an attempt to help the children she invited the parents to a meeting over a period of one working day between 8.30am-6.00 pm. Out of 40 possible parents ....1 turned up....and my daughter said she knew that mother would make the effort.As she says “ see the child, know the parents”

By not giving children boundaries, they are enabling bad behaviour, bad manners etc and they are not preparing them for life in general. Wherever they go in life they need to learn how to behave respectfully. 2 of my GS’s were forever fighting and arguing so I’d get my coat on and when they asked why I was going I calmly explained how upsetting it was to listen to their unkindness to each other. They calmed down at once not wanting me to leave. They asked me why the other 3GC had been on holiday with me and not them, so I was honest and said because the others know how to behave in public. It worked and I’ve now taken them on holiday twice with only one minor incident !

Cynthi013. I am so sorry. This must such a shock after the good behaviour of your other children in the family.

Because of the young ages of these girls, I think there may be more going on behind this behaviour. I do not think you can step in and help or alter it. It is a serious sign of some deep disturbance and unhappiness. The children, the elder especially from the description you have given, need professional help and their parents need advice and support. This is where you can help. You can provide a stable, loving background that accepts the children and their mother and father and is not judgemental. This does not mean condoning very antisocial behaviour, but try not to become emotionally involved when such behaviour arises and remain calm and, while saying that such behaviour is very unkind/painful for you to hear, you think people who do it are unhappy and that you love the girls even though they are doing something that makes you feel very sad. But remain calm and try not to flare up.

When my back was slightly less painful I did some therapeutic work in short sessions. I was doing a morning of supply teaching once with children aged 5-6. One little boy was very disruptive, would not do anything asked of him and tried to leave the classroom. There were three classes together in a large area with three supply teachers and three TAs. The TAs knew the children and said that the difficult one was "always a nuisance' and made it clear he had a bad reputation for being a problem among the staff. Their Teachers were in another building setting up their new classrooms. After about an hour of difficult behaviour the little boy, big and strong for his age ("I'll call him Adam) decided to take off and was heading away across the field. I managed to catch up with him and said "I am going to hold your hand and I have to bring you back to school so you will be safe with us Adam." Then I said, and I honestly don't know why I said it, "I do not think you are a bad boy, Adam. I think you are unhappy.'' He was quiet for a brief time then said simply "I am. I am unhappy."
I gave Adam some milk - the children are given it at break, and chatted about toys for a while then he began to become involved in an activity. When the morning was ended, I went to the Head of Infants and said I was worried about Adam, that there may be a problem and that he had tried to leave the premises. I told her what I had said to him and his reply. She was astonished and said, "Not all staff know, because the parents asked not to say yet, but they had twins born early just over a week ago and one died last week and the other is very weak and might die."

Never assume a young child is being rude and nasty because they are being deliberately horrible and nasty. There is always more to it. Children naturally want to please adults. They want to be loved. When they do things to reject love there is a serious problem. Never withhold your love.

I am glad that the elder girl is having counselling, at least that means her condition has been recognised and that her parents know there is something wrong. Her mother might be being very defensive, she may feel that people criticise her and blame her for her children's behaviour. It may be that the mother is not helping the situation, but she may need help herself. Coming into an established family as the second wife where the first children are well-behaved and loved, must be rather frightening. She may feel you are critical of her and she knows her children are not behaving beautifully like her husband's first wife's children. She might feel you don't love her children or that you resent her. Her reactions are probably defensive.

I would do as your husband says, let things be for a while. Do not intrude on them. Try and make sure when you communicate with your son or DIL that they know you love and value them and their children and are so glad they are in your family.

I was concerned to read that "The oldest was removed from 2 different child care facilities for spitting, biting, etc."
Removed twice and only 7 years old! That sounds as if she is having a terribly difficult life. The behaviour indicates severe disturbance and being moved around is upsetting in itself.
You have children with very special needs here and a mother who, I believe, is struggling to survive and hold her head up. Could you muster up all your Granny love and gently nurture such difficult girls? This is a special mission and you have been chosen for it! These are two very unhappy and disturbed little girls with a mum who might be very frightened. They need someone loving, calm, stable and who loves them unconditionally, who says "we do not bite" but still cuddles the unhappy biter knowing biting is done because she feels such distress.

As I'm a praying person I will pray for you and these special girls and your son and his wife. I hope you won't mind, I know not everyone likes God being brought into things and I fully understand that. Take care of yourself. You have a lovely husband! That is a huge blessing. Try not to worry. God bless you all.

“DIL that’s not the behaviour of a future leader, that’s the behaviour of a person who will be a subject of crimewatch”

Cynthi013
What a distressing situation.
The parents obviously know there are issues if there has been a school exclusion and a counsellor involved.
If at all possible, I think you should still see them when you can - even for a short outing or with the parents if that's the only feasible option.. Forget the overnights if it's too stressful.
Could you maybe ask your son or DIL ( in a spirit of support) whether the counsellor has suggested anything that you could also try with that GD in order to help with whatever the underlying problem is. Your DiL may be using excuses/reference to leadership qualities to deflect any embarrassment etc she may feel. She may also be overwhelmed and need support but doesn't know how to admit it.
The girls probably need to be reassured that you love them and maybe need praised for whatever little things they do well or any successes at school or elsewhere (without giving in to their bad behaviour.)
Try to stay optimistic that they well turn into lovely, well-mannered young ladies, which they will have all the more chance of doing with whatever support, love, and good example you are in a position to provide. Good luck.

Someone mentioned something about positive parenting and someone mentioned modelling the behaviour you would like to see. I think that this is really good advice.

We have our grandchildren EOWE from 5pm Friday to 5pm Sunday. The girls are 7 and 4, the boy is 2 years and 7 months. The girls are little stars and the boy is getting there slowly. The 4 year old responds really well to praise. I always insist on ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ and gently remind all of them if they forget. I also routinely praise them for their beautiful manners and we have a ‘star of the weekend’ to acknowledge when they behave well. The interesting thing is the 4 year old has the most beautiful manners and the 7 year old commented that the 4 year old “only has nice manners with Mamma and Grandad”. It’s about putting the investment of time and effort in. The two year old started coming in June, but, kicked, said “hate you” if things didn’t go his way. We have been firm but fair and CONSISTENT and his behaviour has improved loads. I’m not saying it’s quite that easy in this case, but I do think with positive reinforcement you might start to make some headway. Good luck x

Two of my gc were always rude to me at different stages of their lives. For each of them I wrote a short letter saying I was fed up with how they treated me so much so that I wa not prepared to waste my money on birthday/christmas presents until I saw an improvement Mind you they were 14 & 15 and it certainly made a difference.

I have 1 who is so moody and bad mannered she is the eldest of 3 and her bad behaviour was never corrected by her parents she was too cute to be told off and was never refused anything she asked for despite being told they would reap what they sew eventually, i cant have her at my house without my anxiety hitting the roof, its sad because she can be so lovely when she wants to be, she doesnt get away with anything with me so she doesnt like to visit too often, but i do love her to bits .

This thread has become a little complicated.

inishowen I agree completely with Coyoacan She probably feels insecure and insecure children are sometimes naughty as any attention is better than no attention. Just ignore the bad if you can and reward the good and be there.

lyndon6 I felt quite astonished when I read about your DGD. I thought that, as long as medical evidence was produced, i.e. GP/hospital letter, then all establishments would allow a later sit or resit of an exam. But I don't have the direct experience to know for sure so I'm hoping someone can help you there. A separate thread may be the way to go as someone said previously.

Cynthi013 like others, I find it hard to believe that spitting and biting at their ages (toddlers do do this) is a sign of a gifted child or 'leader' (maybe Teresa May should try biting some MP's). So it does seem that your DIL is the type of person who cannot bear to face facts and is using this as an excuse for unacceptable behaviour. How you deal with it? I guess you have 2 options. Either refuse to look after them and only see them, as others have suggested, when you visit their home or in a public place. Explain you are not capable of looking after 'gifted' children.

Or, if you really feel you want to help them, then as someone said earlier in the thread, you could try having them one at a time hoping that they will learn by your example. If you have good manners and behave in a calm non violent way maybe they will see that is the right way. If it's not reinforced at home of course, you may get nowhere.

When they mature, they will be ostracised if they continue to behave in such an unsociable way, so they will probably learn the hard way in the end.

You sound like a great GP to show such concern. I hope you can see some progress with their behaviour so you don't have to worry.

I think its more to the point to understand why the little girl is acting this way. I think she is more sinned against than sinning. Maybe the parents need to pull together to help even if they are separated.

I have a huge number of grandchildren (23) and they range in age from 34 down to 3 months. But the thing to remember is all children are different even in the same family. Same with the greatgrandchildren . Mostly their behaviour is down to both parents not just one. One of my DGS was was very badly behaved at the age of 4 mainly due to his parents but it was best ignored . Now aged 12 he is a delightful, polite and very intelligent young man.
Maybe yoyr DIL is the second wife and could be feeling that she is an outsider in your family which makes her defensive. I agree with earlier posters advice to continue seeing them but dont have them over for sleeepovers at the moment. Some children love staying over but some don't.

For those who say DIL to blame remember it takes both parents to bring up the children! If the DGC are rude BOTH parents should be dealing with it!

I am afraid you have three options:

Put up with their bad behaviour (which I do not advise).

Inform your son and daughter-in-law what behaviour you are prepared to put up with and what you are not. Make it clear that you love the children and that they are welcome if they behave. If not, you will invite them when they have learned to behave. (This course of action will offend your daughter-in-law and probably your son as well, as basically you are saying that they have made a bad job of bringing up their children.)

Only invite your grandchildren with their parents. Correct anything you see as bad behaviour and if the girls' parents object, say sweetly, "My house, my rules".

Anything except grinning and bearing their behaviour may well cause a breach in the family.

inishowen It sounds a bit like she is testing you to see if your love is unconditional or if you will also leave her.

Inishowen.
I think you need to be a little more assertive when dealing with your dgd.
You seem to be taking a very passive approach.

Just assuming she will return to her normal self soon isn’t very realistic. It sounds as if she needs a firm talking to about her unacceptable behaviour. Otherwise she will probably carry on disrespecting you.