Funding the NHS?

AAA, I wrote an assignment on that Humpty Dumpty quote at college.
Got a grade A for it, and the comment that it was wonderful to read as the last one of that particular lecturer's career. Can't for the life of me remember what I wrote, though.

AAAHappyMan I do realise that the NHS is not actually 'free', yes, we do pay for it through our taxes, but not everyone pays any taxes anyway, older people may not and the unemployed/disabled etc. However I meant of course free at the point of need. We all want to save the NHS, it is marvellous [or was] however, when it was set up , those running it could not forsee how the population of this country would increase.It was never designed to cope with mass immigration, firstly from India and Pakistan, the West Indies, and now from Europe and Eastern Europe.Yes, we do generate more taxes from working people, but the NHS cannot do all it needs to do, for the sheer number of patients wanting things from it.So, something does need to change, it's just what?

If any of my grandchildren needed lifesaving operations, they would be done in an NHS hospital, Ana. Private hospitals do not do lifesaving. Anyone in a private hospital whose life needs saving gets sent to the nearest A&E. Verging on a personal attack there, Ana.

papaoscar Fri 20-Jun-14 20:41:52
I was thinking, 3AHM of William Beveridge, wartime Liberal architect of the welfare state and the NHS,... groundwork done by that great Liberal leader Lloyd George in 1911. We owe those two an enormous debt. The present so-called Liberals are beneath my contempt, and I used to be a member of the party.
Then, P O, we are indeed in agreement.
Lloyd George has been much maligned, and badly represented, mainly by the Tories and their ever-so-close supporters in the Press. As you and I clearly understand the roots of the Welfare state, and the NHS, were planted, fed and watered by Dafydd.
Yes, the 1911 legislation was the bedrock on which the Welfare State, and the NHS would be founded - tho' some still see it as a ploy to undermine more radical moves by an increasingly powerful working class.
Dafydd's Postwar [W W 1] social reforms should shine as brightly as the Post W W 2 reforms by the Attlee Gov't, Those 1945 - wonders were brought in in the face of that drunken oaf Churchill, and his hysterical claim that Labour would have to "... fall back on some kind of Gestapo" to implement its policies.
Yes, I knew that you'd play the Beveridge was a Liberal card - and all credit to him (and you). Without his clear vision, and skilled presentation of the appalling facts, the triumvirate of Churchill, the BMA and the Tory Press Barons would have used the ''We're too poor to afford this extravagance now.'' argument to block progress.
Sounds like they haven't changed their tune much as they sell off everything we have to non-residents, tax dodgers, and Sovereign Wealth Funds [Nationalized - but by another State ? ? ]
I won't intrude on your private grief v-a-v your last sentence. [He, he ]
Kindest regards.

No it wasn't. I asked you whether your principles would be compromised if it came to saving the life of one of your grandchildren. I wasn't talking about operations, I meant diagnosis and treatment.

Ah rosesarered its the immigrants fault that the NHS is under pressure is it.
Be under a lot more pressure if all the immigrants that work in it decided to withdraw their labour for a week or two.
Truth of the matter is that we live a lot longer than we did when the NHS was invented and there are a lot more things it offers now than it did then. These are the factors that have increased demand - a lot more people being kept alive by the NHS and being offered a lot more ways to keep them alive for even longer.
I remember visiting a surgical ward in a research capacity 25 years ago and being told that most of the operations they do are on people well into retirement age. Same with medical wards - they are predominantly occupied by older people.

Well Rose - I don't know what world you live in, but I don't know anyone who doesn't pay taxes of one kind or another

I too don't like the implication that those who oppose private health care do so because they can't afford it themselves. I worked for many years in a city firm of solicitors where I was entitled to free top-notch health care. I decided not to take up my entitement because I don't agree with private health care.

That's not to say that I can be sure that I would never, even in the most worrying circumstances, think of paying for a private consultation for myself or those close to me. Who's to know what he or she would do in that situation. I would never criticise anyone for taking that decision - I feel it is the system and not the individual that is at fault.

As to the comment about people pouring in from places like India, Pakistan and the West Indies, these people were urged to come here and work for the NHS (and other public services) by the British Government. My husband was one of them and he was a committed and caring public servant for the whole of his working life.

durhamjen Fri 20-Jun-14 22:27:09
If any of my grandchildren needed lifesaving operations, they would be done in an NHS hospital, Ana. Private hospitals do not do lifesaving. Anyone in a private hospital whose life needs saving gets sent to the nearest A&E. Verging on a personal attack there, Ana.
Well said, Jen, and restrained with ''Verging'.
After all Ana, you do have a record of Troll-ish postings, don't you dear? Z, Z, Z
So many employ the tactic of ''If loosing an argument - resort to ad hominem. It spurts out in debates on Pacifizm; non-violence; the right to carry guns; hanging; life-should-mean-life; etc.
This is well documented, and happened in a local (To me) Private med facility.
Young family man goes in for a routine vasectomy - snip - Oi - he won't stop bleeding - that's an unusual blood group on his pre-op - 3 units please - WHAT not ordered! Get hold of some PDQ - NHS the other side of the City- well send a car - it's the afternoon school-run rush hour - nobody available or insured , w t f ? The cleaner says he knows the way, he'll go! Send him NOW - Is he back yet? just picked it up - too late the guy's bled to death - does that mean we'll loose the contract? [Of course not]. Did anyone go to jail. Huh! QED?

Can't be bothered to answer you again, Ana. I know about lifesaving having had mine saved at Easter last year by the NHS.
I also know about private and NHS, having had a guest house in York where one of the guests was a German surgeon who operated on hips at the Bupa hospital a few doors away. If anything went wrong, she sent the patient to A&E at the NHS hospital in the next street.
I have said this before. Is there something wrong with your memory?

Ana Fri 20-Jun-14 22:33:59
No it wasn't
''Oh, yes it was! Wasn't it children?''
''Yes it was ! You're a naughty Gran, Ana, scaring us like that, just 'cos you're rich. Our mummy and daddy can't even afford proper shoes for us, we have to put cardboard inside our old worn out ones every morning to go to school.
Must go, mummy's back from the church food bank - she had to walk two miles each way - no money for the privatized, de-regulated bus fares, she said. And it was raining.''

rosesarered Fri 20-Jun-14 22:22:16 , ... but not everyone pays any taxes anyway
VAT, Council tax, ??

Well said, Eloethan.
We've had threads before about the fact that the health service would be even more on its knees than it is now if it wasn't for immigrants working in it.
Why are people always so ready to put it down instead of wanting to improve it for our children and grandchildren?
However much it has changed it is going to change even more if this government gets its way. Then only the rich will be able to afford medical care.
I know I keep mentioning him but Harry Smith talks about his sister who died of TB in 1926, pre the NHS. She had to be taken to the workhouse for her last month, because the family had no money to feed her and pay for her medication. Do we really want to go back to that, because that is what he is worried about?
How many of the people over 60 would be able to afford all our medication if we had to pay for every item?

AAA I find some of your posts very difficult to follow. Are you employing the "stream of consciousness" method used by experimental novelists - much lauded by critics but a complete mystery to many readers?

I think you just have to check his references and read them a few times, then the eureka moment comes, Eloethan.
That's what I do anyway, and it seems to work.

Eloethan Sat 21-Jun-14 00:04:30 and durhamjen Sat 21-Jun-14 00:14:53
I'd not really thought of "stream of consciousness" , but since it is related to phenomenology, and opposed to the mock-scientific perception of humans propounded by the Behaviourists, thank you for the compliment.
Compared with the belief in Magic and other odd ways of reaching conclusions based on the firmly held adherence to the existence of Phlogiston and ''The Ether'', seemingly embraced by certain contributors - perhaps I'm best sticking to the style you describe.
Was this an example of what you described?

AAA ?????!

Eloe, Thaness w r t : AAA????????????????????????
Why not PM me?

What on earth....

Many think that the National Insurance contribution is only for the NHS, but it covers much more and is very good value for money.

State Pension
contribution-based Jobseeker's Allowance
Bereavement Allowance
contribution-based Employment and Support Allowance.

some of these are based on how much you have actually contributed, but much of it is funded even if you have never contributed.

One way to save a great deal of money is to stop the waste of drugs, many of which are binned when not used, even if they are in unbroken packaging and only just prescribed (not out of date) When someone dies, or is unable to use their prescription for some reason, those unopened drugs are, without exception, thrown away.

Of course immigrants are not to blame for the use of the NHS, this country has invited most of them here in the first place, and hospitals seem to be entirely staffed by them.Controlled immigration to this country would have been a better thing[but that's another subject altogether.]What I actually said was that when the NHS was set up back in the 1940's they did not realise that there would be mass immigration here.Yes, there are other factors, but population numbers will be the biggest factor.
I do know a couple of people who don't pay any taxes actually [not their fault, mental health issues.]But that's not the point, the majority of us pay taxes and we help those that can't.
The NHS will have to change in some way, either it won't be able to offer the services it once did [that is already happening in a small way, for what used to be called cosmetic procedures, removal of warts, ganglions etc]hospitals don't offer those services now.So it will be cut services or make extra charges at point of need, maybe .My DH's GP told him that you need to be really bad now to get cataract ops done on the NHS.As he feels he is really bad already [and his optician agrees]he will have it done privately as soon as he can afford it.It's either that or give up driving.

Roses Anyone who buys anything apart from food and children's clothes pays VAT.
That include gas and electricity.
So unless the people you know are living in a cave, they pay taxes.

Sheer nitpicking jane

We all want the NHS to go on in it's present form, but can it?Talking of limited procedures to save money; I have a friend who is very active but is over 70, she has had endless problems with her knee and the GP says the NHS will not pay for a scan for her, due to her age.That, and my DH's eye problems give me cause to worry about the NHS for older people. They may in the past, have kept older people going [sometimes too much] but not any more.

Roses If you make incorrect statements, then the chances are that someone will point that out. I wasn't nit-picking.
The fact is that many people believe that less well-off people 'don't pay taxes'.
They do.
www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/16/british-public-wrong-rich-poor-tax-research
"The report said the higher percentage paid by the poor at the moment was down to a number of taxes. "While income tax and national insurance are broadly progressive, the bottom 10% of households pay roughly 23% of their gross household income in indirect taxes on consumption and more than four times as much of their income in council tax as the top 10%," it said."