It's back: Morning Depression feeling...and worse

{{{hugs}}}
Know the feeling. If I get like that I start worrying about what I should be worrying about but aren't as I can't think what it is?
Daft bugger, that's me!

I really need a hug today. Last night I felt overwhelmed with sadness - started obsessing again about DD1 not having a partner/family of her own, and the fact that DD2 has said she won't be having any more children (which Mr Rowantree thinks is sensible given the terrible pregnancy she had and the risk of Goltz syndrome - I can see that, but I find it hard to come to terms with it and I know well I have to keep my feelings to myself and not inflict them on either of our DDs. My automatic habit of comparing myself constantly means I look into the future, see sister-in-law and friends with more than one GC and feel scared that I won't be able to deal with my feelings of envy and bitterness yet again (which I know aren't rational, or nice, or justifiable!).
I need and want so much to be able to make the most of the dear little GD we do have, but it's tearing me up thinking that she could be the only one...and every time DD2 posts on FB or says that she's not having any more, I can't escape or pretend to myself that I haven't heard or read it, can I?

So ok, I know there is no answer and that I am probably feeling this irrational way because of my depression, but I don't know which came first and...well, I guess I'm just venting really because DH tries to understand but just gets annoyed or irritated at the moment.....

You could well be right there! I'm rather exercise phobic - which is probably why I should try to do something about it. I'm rather a lazy cow, and it's not a healthy way to be, I know....

No. I only meant "effort" in respect of exercise. Walking can be very helpful. Perhaps more relaxing than trying to do stuff.

Kiora nah, don't worry, I wasn't offended at all You were being very kind, actually, and I do appreciate it. Thank you

I am glad you are better than you were, though it's not pleasant having 'black tar' days (yes, very good description!) Several weeks ago I thought I was improving - I wasn't waking up feeling low or anxious for a while. Stupidly I allowed myself to be persuaded to wean myself off the antidepressants, and found I was feeling rubbish again, so I'm resuming them again, but it might be a while before I feel any benefit. It fluctuates anyway, so I'm not totally sure it was the drug that helped, but we'll see. It's just not great at the moment.
I am persevering with the meditation and trying to keep busy but some days I feel so despondent that nothing I do seems to help and it's tempting to give up altogether - but that's not something I want to do.

Jinglebells - I haven't lacked effort, I can assure you. Since my ex-friend dumped me, I joined U3a and took classes in philosophy, Russian and art history for a couple of years. I made the effort to get out and do things as much as possible. I went to Pilates every week and started meeting a few friends interested in textile art (which I still do) every month. I did a term's felting course in London and an 8 week Yoga for Anxiety and Depression course. Nothing helped much. I've since dropped the Russian and philosophy - the Russian got to be far too much slog and I was out of my depth, ditto philosophy, though I did try hard with it. The art history group was rather too large and the people there weren't that friendly. I don't mind going to things by myself, and I wanted to try out things I wouldn't normally do, in order to push myself a bit. When DH retired we were able to go out together more to make the most of our National Trust/English Heritage membership, which I like doing, but most outings cost money (petrol ain't cheap). I'd love to join another textile art/stitchy group locally but Ex-Friend goes to the nearest ones, which rules them out for me (would be awkward for both of us and for the many mutual aquaintances). I still feel 'haunted' by the split, try as I might to tell myself it's ancient history - and it hasn't been easy to try to move on, knowing that SHE hasn't had to make any major changes in her life as a result, and is apparently going from strength to strength. GAH!

I guess there are more different U3a groups and meetings I could go to, so I will re-think when we get home from holiday, but it's never been that simple - however hard I've tried in the past, my mind has other ideas.
I enjoy Mindfulness meditation as it focuses on acceptance, and living in the present moment. It's nothing to do with analysing anything. I wish I could live more mindfully, but I'm a slow learner.....;)

Oh rowan I'm so sorry I didn't mean to fu fu your condition. It just that you sound so nice. It's your way of phrasing things that give me a rye smile. I have a bit of a caustic humour myself. Will you feel better when you actually arrive at your destination? I do hope so . As well as feeling as you do it must be really wearing pretending that your o.k. Like walking through thick black tar. I really do remember my very black days last year. I'd rather have a broken leg. I was paralysed by anxiety. I lost almost two months. I'm a lot better now apart from my little anxieties about traveling, the postman and the occasional low day. I work and that helps a little I think. oh and the brighter days. Keep me posted on how you are. I send my best wishes and I hope you feel the sunshine

When DH and I used to go on a series of organised walks a few years ago, a young man joined who was doing his two years living as a woman before getting the op. She had had a rough time - her drink was spiked in a bar by "comedians" having a laff, and she fell and hit her head, had concussion and was very stressed about the while situation.

She was also going to several other courses - but they were all of the analytical variety, going into various aspects of the transexual change, doing meditation and that kind of thing. I reckoned that what she needed as much were other hobbies and occupations to focus on for a while - creative things, physical activities, factual talks about interesting subjects, all with the opportunity to talk informally and less intensely to other people (most of them women) on any subject at all, just chatting.

As for "needing a good kick up the arse" - no one would dare try to give you one on here as we would be roundly told off! You could try giving yourself one.

Effort in, happiness out, is a good motto. Not sure if a meditation class is what you need tbh.

I wonder if it would help at all if you went all out on an exercise plan for a while. How far is the meditation class? If it is, say, a couple of miles you could walk back from it. Just walking two miles a day can prove very helpful.

And if this lovely sunshine stays around, try to be outside most of the day.

(I will now go and follow my own advice!)

Kiora, I wish I made myself smile. Not feeling at all good this morning. Pretty low in fact- just woke up like that. Even the sunny day doesn't help. I'm going to a U3a meditation class this morning so I'm hoping I will feel better after that but this sucks - and I can't see any real reason for it Just wish this horrible condition would go away and leave me in peace....

Meant glug it was not me but the iPad

rowan you do make me smile. I think you have a great sense of humour. I too get anxious before a holiday. It didn't help that last year we missed our flight and were frog marched out of the airport. We did manage to pay for another flight but lost 2 days of the holiday. So nowadays I'm even more anxious. Im going away next Tuesday. We are going to a reunion in Germany. So my husband is driving. I'm a terrible passenger. Although not a nervous driver strange isn't it. I get very nervy and jittery. Clinging to the seat sucking my teeth. It drives my husband mad and makes me feel physically sick. I'm also worried about meeting people I haven't seen for nearly 40 years. I keep worrying about how different I will look and wishing I'd lost weight( too late now) My youngest son has gone somewhere really really dangerous. I normally see him before he goes ( just in case) but he didn't come to see this time and left it too late for us to get to see him. I faced timed him before he went and told him off. 1 I'm now frightened its bad luck, 2 I'm upset he was so thoughtless3 I'm ashamed of my smothering mothering action. When I'm upset I get nigley with my husband. What a state to be in mostly about nothing. Perhaps galen could spare a large glue of vodka

I tend to as well.
But this time I can't wait. I think it's possibly because the last one was so traumatic with the airport problems and the weather being unusually wet and cold. Also I didn't have an Xmas one, so I'm really looking forward to this one.
The free upgrade to Queens Grill means I have a BUTLER and what's more TWO FREE BOTTLES OF VODKA and £764 free on board spend!
Must remember though that I DONT NEED TO BUY ANY MORE PEARLS!

I ALWAYS feel apprehensive before a holiday - always have, I think if you are a worrier then it comes with the territory. Even when we owned our own place abroad I would always get the feeling beforehand that I didn't want to go, fortunately once I got there I did enjoy myself, although I was never sorry to come home.

Once you get there, try to relax and enjoy yourself. My DH and I were something like you and yours except he liked to sit on a beach all day and I liked to explore so a couple of times during the holiday he would take himself off to the beach and I would go off for a wander, or join an organised trip. It worked for us.

That's OK, Lucy - it's everyone's thread anyway ;)

Woken up feeling anxious and rather low today - not sure why exactly but I had to take a sleeping pill last night to get a good night's sleep and I woke up feeling agitated about lots of things and thinking about how we wouldn't be seeing DGD for a month and how much she will have changed when we do. We saw her last week when we went over to give DD2 a couple of hours' break and had a lovely day, but DD2 didn't need/want us to come this week and we're going away on Sunday for 17 days.
Am I pathetic in feeling sad? She pointed out that her partner's parents, who live a long distance away, didn't see her often at all, and I know we are lucky enough to live not too far away to visit, but I ended up feeling guilty and still felt depressed at the thought of not seeing them for a month.
However....I kept my mouth firmly shut and didn't protest or complain. I guess it's something I need to keep to myself and I don't want to make it DD2's issue. She has enough to worry about without a needy and clinging mother asking to visit.
It would help if I could look forward to our holiday but I'm just feeling anxious about it as usual - am I the only one who feels like this? To those who don't get the chance to go away this must sound utterly ridiculous, but my anxiety looms large, especially when we go abroad. I don't want to spoil it for DH who is really enthusiastic about it, but his energy for sightseeing is far greater than mine, and I get anxious about toilets, feeling tired, getting ill, the food....and just worrying about whether I will enjoy it or not! So often I hear people say they had the 'best holiday ever' so feel very guilty and ashamed if I can't say the same.
I probably need a good kick up the arse....

Thanks Rowan and hugs to you too as I seem to have hijacked your thread.

Take good care of yourself xx

Just a quick reply for now - I didn't have to convince her she needed help - she knew! She was living in London at the time, away from us, which was terrifying as we didn't ever know whether the lack of response to texts or contact meant she had self-harmed, made suicide attempts etc as if often did. She had repeated admissions to A&E departments in hospital, and also to a women's unit. It was from there that she was referred for DBT as where she lived in Islington it was available from an excellent team.
It took about 18 months and was far from easy. She tried to combine it with her journalism job which was very tricky, but then decided to go freelance which suited her mental health issues better. Her partner supported her throughout. She has always had an independent streak as far as we were concerned and was determined to live away from us and live her own life, but we had to learn to live with the terror (once you've nearly lost your child to serious suicide attempts you live with the fear indefinitely).

I am under no illusions that she is 'cured' and neither is she, but she is living a normal life now which we never thought possible. It had to come from her, in the end. It is so sad that your DD1 isn't as empathetic as you would wish after all her own suffering, and I hope that the repercussions of this letter aren't as dreadful as you fear. All you can now do is be there to pick up the pieces, feeling helpless - how well I know that feeling!
It's never easy to support children with mental health problems and even more difficult when we're suffering ourselves. But you have survived so far, Lucy - my guess is that you are stronger than you think you are. Just one baby step at a time - trying not to look too far ahead (easier said than done, I know!) and cheering yourself on from the sidelines. You've got this far and you've done well. Both your DDs have survived this far. They can get through the next difficult stage too. I hope you have support though because that is so important. Keep posting here, because the Gransnetters are a lovely bunch and it's often a relief to vent and get a virtual hug over the ether. Thinking of you. X

PS Rowan DD2 has just emailed me to say hat the letter she has sent is an olive branch to her sister no a rant as I expected! Am very proud of her.

Rowan last point first - unfortunately DD1 currently has no empathy for DD2 - and will have even less when she receives a letter* from D2 which has been written last week and I think just posted :-( - even though she herself has suffered from depression adn anxiety and very low self esteem caused by severe bullying when she was at school. She is married to a nice guy who is shows symptoms of Asperger's although never officially diagnosed we can all recognise these symptoms and act accordingly with him so no great problem.

DD1 was helped to recovery when she was pregnant 2 years ago with DGS - fantastic therapy and support from St Thomas's Hospital in London and afterwards too in case of any PND which fortunately didn't occur. One would think that she would have more sympathy and empathy but although she has had at some stages she no longer does and just says it is bad behaviour on her sister's part. Which i is but there are reasons for someone thinking and acting the way DD2 does.

*I suspect DD2's therapist may have had a hand in this as ime that is something therapists do, not always wisely imo.

Mindfulness has been mentioned to me but in the past I have never been able to meditate at all. However I will re investigate as a friend of mine in France sees a practitioner in Paris who has helped her considerably where all else failed. It also helps that he speaks English!

Thanks again for mentioning Dialectical Behavioural Therapy - how did you convince your DD that she needed more help when she was gong through such difficulties? I am so glad she met a partner who is so supportive of her. DD2s first relationship lasted 6 years and he was a lovely chap who only in the end gave up because she was just so hard to live with and of course they were both in their early 20s with no experience to fall back on.

Lucy - mother's intuition should always be taken seriously IMO.
My daughter didn't really start to improve till she started Dialectical Behavioural Therapy. Since then her relationship with her elder sister has improved a great deal, though it did take time, and also with us, though she still displays paranoia at times. These days she recognises it, and apologises afterwards if she's overreacted, and we are learning to handle it better too. There was a time when we didn't think she would EVER improve - and felt very bleak about her future - she has a disability too, and we wondered if she'd ever have a stable relationship with anyone. She went through a long stage of picking totally unsuitable short-term partners - one-night stands, addicts, someone on remand (!) - but as she improved, so did her sense of self-worth. Her now long-term partner is a lovely man who's seen her at her worst and is a rock for her - and they have built a loving and secure home for their baby. I only tell you this to reassure you that it IS possible for things to improve even if they look bleak. If only we knew this when we were suffering in the wee small hours, it might help a little, but sadly we don't.
I am so sorry that you are feeling worse yourself too. It makes things so much more difficult and overwhelming, but it WILL pass. I try to see my lower times as black clouds passing over the blue sky, and to imagine the blue sky still being there underneath. It doesn't lift my depression or anxiety but sometimes it feels comforting.
What I do find helpful is Mindfulness meditation.It's no quick fix by any means but rather a means to understanding and learning acceptance and living in the moment, rather than escaping from difficult emotions which can make them all the more frightening. I'd recommend a book by Danny Penman which has a CD of short meditations on it. I try to meditate every day if possible and to take a long-term view of its benefits rather than judge each meditation as 'good' or 'bad'.

The system in the UK sucks - I am most interested that it's rather better in France. I didn't know that therapy is free there and it sounds as if your partner is being rather better supported than we are in the UK.

I can't remember whether you mentioned what type of therapy your daughter is having and whether she accepts that she needs further help and support. My own psychiatrist was doubtful whether antidepressants would help me, but I was so low that I begged for them in the end. Mood stabilisers can help some people as mood swings can be overwhelmingly painful and debilitating for BPD sufferers. My daughter had antipsychotics at one time but no longer needs them. She is now on citalopram but it doesn't remove all the depression of course, and she still has anxiety much of the time, which she has learned to live better with. I am thinking that DBT could be an excellent way forward for your daughter as it teaches coping skills and strategies along with the intensive therapy. I'd have loved that myself but it wasn't on offer in my area. Instead I had Mentalisation Based therapy which I didn't get on with at all - it made me feel worse, but there are some patients who feel it helps them.
I hope that the predicted trouble with your other daughter doesn't materialise. Presumably she understands that your other daughter is unwell and all that that implies?

Thinking of you.

Rowan i am seeing my GP this week specifically to ask what can be done. As you say I do feel as if I am getting nowhere but that is partly because of DD2's attitude that nothing can be done and she has her own therapist anyway.

It is a second assessment that DD2 needs as things have not improved dramatically for her in the past 18 months and with specific relationship problems within the family as well as her personal ones externally I grow ever more worried for her future. There is a huge bust up on the horizon between her and DD1 which won't help matters.

I just feel (mother's intuition as well as watching her behaviour) that the therapist can't do it all and that other meds may be needed to help control the behaviour as well as talking/behaviour therapies.

Here in France my partner (who is bi-polar as well as suffering from anxiety and depression - don't I just pick them!) sees a psychiatrist on a regular basis who not only checks his meds efficacy but also acts as therapist. It works, is free and is ongoing! Why we can't have this in the UK is nothing short of a crime :-(

Meanwhile my own depression for no specific reason has worsened over the past week (I am so sick of this illness) and I know that talking therapy won't help as it has in the past where a specific issue that has caused the depression has been addressed, with some success.

Thanks for your advice. Much appreciated. Glad that things didn't proceed as you anticipated with MiL yesterday. Am thinking of you too as you battle with your 'stuff'.

Hello all - a quick update.
I did go with DH to visit MIL, but we took her out for the day to visit Syon House so that was a good distraction. When we got back to MIL's house for dinner, not much was said about the new baby apart from the fact that the new mother had discharged herself from hospital early and was doing very well (to my shame I didn't want to hear that - my own daughter was left to struggle by herself after her c-section, after she'd been promised good care because of her disability and mental health problems. She got nothing at all, and after a hellish night, also discharged herself, and her lovely partner looked after them all).
So in fact there was no skyping - apparently MIL's daughter had returned home and was no longer with the new mum and baby so the opportunity wasnt there for skyping or anything, but DH showed MIL how to access photos on her computer while I was knitting in another room and the fact that I wasn't looking at the photos too wasn't an issue - thank goodness!

We have contacted DH's sister to arrange sending money as a present for her daughter and the new baby, and I will have to get used to updates from MIL who speaks regularly to her daughter in Canada. Probably there won't be a mass Skype unless there's a big family get-together, which hopefully won't be for quite a while.

In answer to Positivepam - my psychiatrist told me that Mirtazapine definitely has side-effects of weight gain in some people and I seem to be one of them. Interesting that you say it's prescribed for sleeping problems - insomnia has been a big issue since being on the drug - I used to sleep pretty well despite my anxiety and depression problems, but no longer, and I don't like taking sleeping pills because I don't want to become addicted to them.
Once we're home from holiday and I next see my psychiatrist I will ask about a CPN and further therapy options - if I can appeal the decision to refuse further treatment.
Jingle. gilly and lucy - thanks for your suggestions, but even if the skype had taken place I don't think I could have done any of that - I'm just not in the frame of mind where I could carry it off, and I'm thankful that it didn't happen anyway, though I would never have mentioned my experiences anyway as I am too proud (if that's the right word) and also too ashamed to admit to my feelings, so I'd have hidden them as best I could (as I always try to do) but not acted in the way you suggested because that would be rather out of character for me!

Lucy - it's indeed shameful that your DD has been treated in this way and just been issued with repeat prescriptions which get her nowhere. She really needs a proper assessment. Is there any way you could make an appointment to see the GP and voice your concerns? I can see it's a risk because there's the usual patient confidentiality issue, but mental health is a very difficult area and arguably you have nothing to lose by putting the case for referring her to a psychiatrist for a proper diagnosis and hopefully some appropriate therapy, on the grounds that their care plan simply isn't working (and everyone has the right to a care plan). I feel for you - I've been where you are, with my DD2 (so I've been on both sides of the fence, so to speak!) and I know only too well the frustration, trying to get the medics to understand what is needed and move forwards. You feel as if you are getting nowhere.
It's been suggested to me that I complain to PALS (Patient Advice and Lisason Service) which I will definitely look into, and you could also approach them in your area and see what they suggest as a way forward for your daughter. She - and you - deserve better than this.

Thank you Rowan for your kind concern regarding my son, yes it is the early hours of the morning when I worry, and he has admitted to depression which is the first stage I suppose. his Uni have been very good, but he is legally an adult and they cannot discuss anything with me. I have read your comments regarding your MiL and her insensitivity and would ask ' why are you more concerned about her feelings rather than your own'? Maybe you could contact the relative who is having the child, congratulate her on your own behalf, send her a gift, and just dont take part in this dreadful communal skype where everyone has to play a part to suit your MiL?

Hi Rowan and I am sorry to hear about your problems. I was wondering could I ask you if you are on any other medication as well as the low dose of Mirtazapine? Mirtazapine is usually given at night to help anyone who is having problems with sleeping and is not "usually" a drug that causes the side effect of weight gain. Hence why I was wondering if you were on any other meds that may cause that problem. Depression itself is also sometimes a cause of weight gain and the "nibble" problem that you mention. As you have said when you have tried and been referred for several lines of treatment it appears you have been left to struggle on your own and as has also been said, mental health or illness is at the bottom of the pile for the "cash". It seems a shame as your treatment with Mirtazapine appeared to be working that you have had to come off it. I certainly agree that a CPN would definitely be a wise move. Please do not lose hope, there will be a way through all of this and do not think you are a failure or a bad person, these issues are not easy to deal with and the fact you are still fighting through it shows how strong you are. You really do need to discuss this with your Psychiatrist or someone else trained in dealing with your particular illness.
I send you my very best wishes and lots of hugs.